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The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

Hey idiot listen to me, dont try to be a smart a$$. Like i said before you dont know a tosh. The map is what i have narrated earlier. The map shows the stand off position in 2003 and you STUPIDLY tried to use it to prove your claim that INDEPENDENT sources consider NA as PART of india, which indeed is not mentioned in that map nor does in anyway it proves so (by the legend or whatever).

Had you or the map maker wanted to prove your point (NA and stuff belongs to india) the following way of map making must have been adopted:

755pxmapkashmirstandoff.jpg


But like as said you fcuked up big time, you dont have face any more!

Enjoy.

See this is how logical people think alike (yes its me boasting:whistle:), here there's a map which tried to prove your fantasy of NA being part of india (now who is stupid, let the readers decide):
The mountain war in Kashmir - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

arton20262d1a61829141.jpg


Though i mistakenly, in a hurry included askai chin in kashmir in my version of map.
 
Please raise the issue internationally to get support for it - you can't.

You know why? Because the international community has already addressed the issue under the UNSC resolutions, so if India takes the issue to the international community, of claiming all of J&K, the UNSC resolutions will come back into play.

No country, especially the Western world so enamored with human rights and democracy, is going to argue against the principle of self-determination endorsed by existing UNSC resolutions and required under the rules of partition. That is why, barring military conquest (which is unlikely for either side), India cannot really make any concerted move to claim all of J&K.

In any case, Nehru very explicitly stated that India wanted to maintain the LoC = IB when he withdrew from the UNSC resolutions unilaterally, and MMS has of late said the same thing, 'a solution to Kashmir with no re-drawing of borders'.

India's claim to all of J&K is just on paper now, no one takes it seriously given the statements and actions of India since the fifties on the issue.

Maintaining IB = LOC is an offer that India made to settle the dispute. Not a release of claim. If that offer is accepted, then yes, thats what India will go with. If not, then the GOI position is as stated, that considers whole of Kashmir (1947) as a part of India and P-O-K and NA as land annexed by Pakistan.
 
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Think tank outlines plan for peace in Kashmir
Friday, June 04, 2010


HELD SRINAGAR: A top international think tank on Thursday released a report detailing the challenges it believes face any attempt by India and Pakistan to bring about peace in Kashmir.

The International Crisis Group’s (ICG) report, “Steps Towards Peace: Putting Kashmir First,” comes amid heightened tensions in the region after the November 2008 Mumbai attacks by Kashmiri militants that killed 166 people.

Kashmir, which is divided between India and Pakistan but claimed in full by both, remains “heavily militarised and laws that encourage human rights abuses by security forces remain, fuelling public resentment,” says the report. India suspended talks with Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks, and the two sides have only recently revived the peace process.

Nevertheless, “tensions between the two neighbours have eclipsed Kashmiri hopes for political liberalisation and economic opportunity,” Samina Ahmed, the ICG’s South Asia project director, says on the group’s website. “This atmosphere of hostility is undermining the progress that had been made in softening the borders that divide the Kashmiri people,” Ahmed said.

India’s Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which gives its soldiers wide powers to shoot, arrest and search, is detested by Kashmiris and tensions have been heightened by the Indian army’s alleged killing of three Muslims in April. India should repeal all such “draconian laws,” the Brussels-based ICG said, urging New Delhi to replace “military-led counter-insurgency with accountable policing.”

The group also advised New Delhi to revive Kashmir’s economy, which has been devastated by violence and conflict. “It is in New Delhi’s interest to be regarded as a sincere partner committed to improving Kashmiri lives, not as an occupying force,” the ICG said.

Think tank outlines plan for peace in Kashmir
 
See this is how logical people think alike (yes its me boasting:whistle:), here there's a map which tried to prove your fantasy of NA being part of india (now who is stupid, let the readers decide):
The mountain war in Kashmir - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

arton20262d1a61829141.jpg


Though i mistakenly, in a hurry included askai chin in kashmir in my version of map.

Dude even in ur version of map....NA and P-O-K are shown in same colour....?wat dooes that mean...

both are indisputable parts of Pakistan..?As some one said u serioulsy need to know how to read maps.
 
This is all very silly and a 20 page cycle keeps repeating itself here. Nobody is willing to wake up to the ground realities of the 21st century and find a pragmatic solution.

Both India and Pak have thier heads burried deep in the sand. Some people in India think that a unified J&K will still be a part of India forever and people in Pak are still holding on to the possibility of a plebeside and mujahideen sparking an armed revolution.

The one and only solution is to mantain a largely demiliterized border with free movement, revoking the AFSPA , withdrawing the army and denying the terrorists any reason to fight.

Leaders of the countries can accept this as a solution now or maybe 25 years later. It won't bother India either way as it can comfortably bear a cold war with a booming economy and grwing diplomatic clout.

It won't bother the ordinary people of Pak either and they will continue on thier regular life and loose intrest in ceaseless confrontation and want more development.

the militant groups might become autonomous but thier ability to fight a war with a regular (trained in COIN) will be extremly limited.

The Only REALISTIC solution is LoC as de facto border and free movement with peaceful lives for the kashmiris.
 
All this quibbling over maps and resolutions and technicalities cannot change what is on the ground. Kashmir is a region that has historically been fragmented with three countries holding parts of it. All three countries have strong armies. All three countries are nuclear armed. All three countries neighbour each other. All three countries have major cities and a large chunk of humanity within range of each other's nuclear missiles. That is the situation on the ground. Its called a stalemate. The Kashmiri people who still harbor dreams of a unified entity, either independent or unilaterally aligned, will just simply have to understand that. They have no other viable option. To put it bluntly, in the larger scheme of things, they simply are not important enough to risk the annhilation of nearly half of mankind. There is no scope of moving forward beyond the last moves made. A long time ago. There is no scope for moving laterally either, unless there is equal barter. Territory for territory. Like any corporate turf war with negotiation, concession, and trade, with clear understandings on territorial rights, exclusivity, and common competitive ground. These three countries are for all intents and purposes on top of the military food chain as far as the neighbourhood is considered. Territorially, they have no natural predators except for themselves. Now that we recognise the ground reality, let us talk about solutions. The obvious solution of course would be for all three nations to accept the status quo as legally binding moving forward for all time. Written in stone, erasable only by atomised blood. And a lot of it.

There should of course be due counselling for the Kashmiri people, with a window period and the shared might and resources and logistics of the three nations coming together as one to help and protect and rehabilitate those who wish to relocate. No questions asked. A peaceful partition. Make your decision. Say your goodbyes. And do not look back after that. You may come back as guests, but legally, and through the due process of Visas and official channels, which can be worked out between the three countries in terms of modalities, security requirements, intel sharing, and cooperation at the level of the state and the people. Ditto with trade and the movement of business and goods. Water is another issue that can be debated and settled on between the countries. Between Pakistan and India mainly. With give and take mutually beneficial for both countries. Limited not only to water, but also to oil, gas, power, trade routes and transits, as well as humanitarian cooperation in rebuilding Afghanistan. Its not so difficult to comprehend or wrap your mind around. A very similar analogy exists right on our doorsteps with the Baloch people, who have ties of common 'peoplehood' but mutually exclusive national identities of three different countries who are not exactly the best of friends. Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran. If that can work, why not the same for Kashmiris, who are not even as homogeneous as a single people entity, with Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all sharing a common geographical location which they have called home in peace for centuries.

That is the Utopian solution. But while I am a die-hard optimist, I am also a pragmatist who recognises that this is probably not going to happen in my lifetime. So the other option for India today is to take the lead, and act unilaterally. Sometimes, one cannot wait forever for a solution, and one needs to be proactive and take a step after careful thought and weighing up of the pros and cons, and then standing by that decision as a single nation and people, regardless of which party or coalition or ideology is the incumbent ruler of the nation. We do not wait for Pakistan to dismatle its proxies and come to the table. We smile and hug and do business with China as usual, but do not have any illusions about their sights on bit by bit territorial erosion into our Ladakh regions either. We turn the world on its head and use the nuclear card to our advantage, by looking at it as an opportunity rather than a sword of Damocles hanging over our heads for perpetuity. We come forward on the world stage and make clear our stand moving forward as a country, on the Kashmir issue, and how we as India plan to treat it. No strings from the past attached. No scope of future strings either, from friends and allies or traditional foes alike. And here is where I see the point of a soldier like Xeric. Why put the burden of half a million forces to hold an area that is ours? Internal law and order can and should be handled by the police, with as many armed forces on the borders, as at any other international boundary of our country. No more, no less.

We fence off once and for all the entire LOC. Any resistance to that should be treated as an overt act of war by a neighbouring country and interference in our internal issues as a sovereign nation. We build bunkers and air bases. We build infrastructure and our road and rail network to facilitate movement of manpower, goods, and machinery. And we declare unilaterally a imporatant rider to our stated 'No first Use' nuclear policy, stating very clearly to all responsible countries worldwide that any act of incursion by the armed forces of either China or Pakistan into the sovereign Indian soil of Jammu and Kashmir will invite a nuclear first strike by India. No negotiations. No hotlines. No chance of a grab and hold till ceasefire for eternity. No scope for any ambiguity as to the strength of our response. Period. Otherwise there is simply no sense in having these weapons if they are going to remain in their silos, their trigger in the hands of a nation which never plans to use it, even when it comes to our own soil and the lives of our own people. What is the sense of building conventional warfare capability superiority, when we are in a nuclear stalemate and have passed the threhold of credible deterrence a long time ago? Let us send the message across to the world. We do not want what belongs to others. But we will not tolerate others trying to take what is ours. These are the only two possible solutions I see to the Kashmir issue. Black and white. Try as other well meaning people might, there are never going to be shades of mutually peaceful grey here.
 
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I have a serious question, do you really know how to read maps?

Dude even in ur version of map....NA and P-O-K are shown in same colour....?wat dooes that mean...

both are indisputable parts of Pakistan..?As some one said u serioulsy need to know how to read maps.

Hey thick heads the issue is of not the color coding, but some lamers (like yourselves) trying to prove that NA and Azad Kashmir are inclusive in the phrase Jammu And Kashmir!

But the fact remains that no independent source, western mapping agencies and international map makers agree with you. They all have been delineating NA and AK in such a way that both of these areas shown OUT of J & K. So if someone want to prove the opposite he needs to quote a map that i posted in my post # 1082, but then it should be from a credible and independent source and not some BR shyt!

And @ Gounder:
Kid you really need to get your map-reading straight. That map shows that though NA and AK are/were part of J & K (the red colored border) but now they are in Pakistani hands (the green color).

WTF! i never new i would be studying map reading from kids who cant even prove their claim i.e. NA is part of J & K by any mean!!

So both of you, the sooner you grow up the better it would be, one of you has already met his fate.
 
This is all very silly and a 20 page cycle keeps repeating itself here. Nobody is willing to wake up to the ground realities of the 21st century and find a pragmatic solution.

Both India and Pak have thier heads burried deep in the sand. Some people in India think that a unified J&K will still be a part of India forever and people in Pak are still holding on to the possibility of a plebeside and mujahideen sparking an armed revolution.

The one and only solution is to mantain a largely demiliterized border with free movement, revoking the AFSPA , withdrawing the army and denying the terrorists any reason to fight.

Leaders of the countries can accept this as a solution now or maybe 25 years later. It won't bother India either way as it can comfortably bear a cold war with a booming economy and grwing diplomatic clout.

It won't bother the ordinary people of Pak either and they will continue on thier regular life and loose intrest in ceaseless confrontation and want more development.

the militant groups might become autonomous but thier ability to fight a war with a regular (trained in COIN) will be extremly limited.

The Only REALISTIC solution is LoC as de facto border and free movement with peaceful lives for the kashmiris.

i am glad that some of you can talk sense at times.

i agree with your post less the last line. Converting the LoC into IB is totally unacceptable to Pakistan as handing over complete Kashmir to Pakistan is unacceptable to india.

Having said that i would only accede to your proposals (mentioned in your 3rd para) if these are just taken as a step further towards the final solution of the issue. The proposal can be a temporary answer to Kashmir problem but then it cant be taken as a permanent solution as it wont lead to absolute peace. The reason being my point is that after converting the LoC into IB, there would still be some factions and areas left on the East of the LoC-converted-into-IB who would not be happy to join india and thus could become a reason behind another issue entailing militancy and freedom movements - so we would be back at square one again, which ofcourse no one wants.
 
I am surprised at some Pakistani members claiming that NA is not part of the historical Jammu and Kashmir state. Just because Pakistan compromised territorial integrity of the state by bifurcating the shia majority part and giving away of Shaksam valley doesn't change the historical fact that the Jammu Kashmir state includes the Northern Areas as well as Pakistani Kashmir incluging the Shaksam valley.
It also includes Aksai Chin and the present day Indian state of Jammu& Kashmir.

This is clear from all documents like the Instrument of Accession, the UN resolutions, and most recently the EU report under Baroness Nicolson that highlighted the plight of people living in NA. It was for this reason that finally after 60+ years the people of Gilgit-Baltistan got a right to elect their leaders.

Ask any true Kashmiri whether NA is part of the historical Jammu Kashmir state or not and see what answer you get.
 
All this quibbling over maps and resolutions and technicalities cannot change what is on the ground. Kashmir is a region that has historically been fragmented with three countries holding parts of it. All three countries have strong armies. All three countries are nuclear armed. All three countries neighbour each other. All three countries have major cities and a large chunk of humanity within range of each other's nuclear missiles. That is the situation on the ground. Its called a stalemate. The Kashmiri people who still harbor dreams of a unified entity, either independent or unilaterally aligned, will just simply have to understand that. They have no other viable option. To put it bluntly, in the larger scheme of things, they simply are not important enough to risk the annhilation of nearly half of mankind. There is no scope of moving forward beyond the last moves made. A long time ago. There is no scope for moving laterally either, unless there is equal barter. Territory for territory. Like any corporate turf war with negotiation, concession, and trade, with clear understandings on territorial rights, exclusivity, and common competitive ground. These three countries are for all intents and purposes on top of the military food chain as far as the neighbourhood is considered. Territorially, they have no natural predators except for themselves. Now that we recognise the ground reality, let us talk about solutions. The obvious solution of course would be for all three nations to accept the status quo as legally binding moving forward for all time. Written in stone, erasable only by atomised blood. And a lot of it.

Very well put forth, but then we have to see what are the major reasons behind this mortal combat? Is it the alleged Pakistani involvement (i say alleged because, post-Musharraf era india still need to prove this) or is the basic error that was made by india by occupying the state against the will of the people?

There should of course be due counselling for the Kashmiri people, with a window period and the shared might and resources and logistics of the three nations coming together as one to help and protect and rehabilitate those who wish to relocate. No questions asked. A peaceful partition. Make your decision. Say your goodbyes. And do not look back after that. You may come back as guests, but legally, and through the due process of Visas and official channels, which can be worked out between the three countries in terms of modalities, security requirements, intel sharing, and cooperation at the level of the state and the people. Ditto with trade and the movement of business and goods. Water is another issue that can be debated and settled on between the countries. Between Pakistan and India mainly. With give and take mutually beneficial for both countries. Limited not only to water, but also to oil, gas, power, trade routes and transits, as well as humanitarian cooperation in rebuilding Afghanistan. Its not so difficult to comprehend or wrap your mind around. A very similar analogy exists right on our doorsteps with the Baloch people, who have ties of common 'peoplehood' but mutually exclusive national identities of three different countries who are not exactly the best of friends. Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran. If that can work, why not the same for Kashmiris, who are not even as homogeneous as a single people entity, with Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all sharing a common geographical location which they have called home in peace for centuries.

Again agreed, but then who would decide this 'peaceful partition?' The LoC, the people of Kashmir or a War? What do you think is the most logical, peaceful (as you demanded) and righteous method?

That is the Utopian solution. But while I am a die-hard optimist, I am also a pragmatist who recognises that this is probably not going to happen in my lifetime. So the other option for India today is to take the lead, and act unilaterally. Sometimes, one cannot wait forever for a solution, and one needs to be proactive and take a step after careful thought and weighing up of the pros and cons, and then standing by that decision as a single nation and people, regardless of which party or coalition or ideology is the incumbent ruler of the nation. We do not wait for Pakistan to dismatle its proxies and come to the table. We smile and hug and do business with China as usual, but do not have any illusions about their sights on bit by bit territorial erosion into our Ladakh regions either. We turn the world on its head and use the nuclear card to our advantage, by looking at it as an opportunity rather than a sword of Damocles hanging over our heads for perpetuity. We come forward on the world stage and make clear our stand moving forward as a country, on the Kashmir issue, and how we as India plan to treat it. No strings from the past attached. No scope of future strings either, from friends and allies or traditional foes alike. And here is where I see the point of a soldier like Xeric. Why put the burden of half a million forces to hold an area that is ours? Internal law and order can and should be handled by the police, with as many armed forces on the borders, as at any other international boundary of our country. No more, no less.

i agree with the taking the lead thing, but then we need to see what has been done with those who took leads in the past? Were their efforts acknowledged or were they rubbished off? Did india accede to the proposals (i only used india and excluded Pakistan because we havent seen inida taking leads over Kashmir issue, instead it has only aggravated the matter by acts like fencing the LoC and passing no-value-outside-india resolutions in its parliament, but on the other hand we have seen some OUT OF THE BOX OPTIONS from the Pakistani sides during Musharraf's era).

We fence off once and for all the entire LOC. Any resistance to that should be treated as an overt act of war by a neighbouring country and interference in our internal issues as a sovereign nation. We build bunkers and air bases. We build infrastructure and our road and rail network to facilitate movement of manpower, goods, and machinery. And we declare unilaterally a imporatant rider to our stated 'No first Use' nuclear policy, stating very clearly to all responsible countries worldwide that any act of incursion by the armed forces of either China or Pakistan into the sovereign Indian soil of Jammu and Kashmir will invite a nuclear first strike by India. No negotiations. No hotlines. No chance of a grab and hold till ceasefire for eternity. No scope for any ambiguity as to the strength of our response. Period. Otherwise there is simply no sense in having these weapons if they are going to remain in their silos, their trigger in the hands of a nation which never plans to use it, even when it comes to our own soil and the lives of our own people. What is the sense of building conventional warfare capability superiority, when we are in a nuclear stalemate and have passed the threhold of credible deterrence a long time ago? Let us send the message across to the world. We do not want what belongs to others. But we will not tolerate others trying to take what is ours. These are the only two possible solutions I see to the Kashmir issue. Black and white. Try as other well meaning people might, there are never going to be shades of mutually peaceful grey here.

Now, here is where i see a problem. You fenced the damn thing as if it was yours - a gifted place from the God's side as is the case with the jews.

You dont allow any window of opportunity to discuss india other than the absolute conditions like Kashmir is india's atoot ang and any aggression across the LoC would meet stiff resistance. Well, as i have pointed out at a number of times, you first need to prove that cross LoC infiltration is being carried (without posting links from the 90s) and then you may go trigger happy with your claims, but until then you need to understand that Kashmir is a DISPUTED territory with both the countries laying claims over it, for now it belongs to the Kashmiri people and nobody elses. Period. A stubborn satance over the issue (as india's) wouldnt yield anything.

Only if you people start thinking on these lines, can the Kashmir issue move forward, or else the 'stalemate' as you have pointed out (which for us is not a stalemate as it is india who is spending millions in Kashmir by maintaining a strong military presence there) can continue and we would only see more peoples being raped and killed and in turn more soldiers would die.

Lastly, it seems strange to me that how can india propose solutions if it doesnt consider Kashmir a disputed territory, instead it consider it a part of itself :wondering: :confused:

So probably the discussion of options over Kashmir cant move forward till india is sticking to its stubborn stance over Kashmir, sorry.
 
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Having said that i would only accede to your proposals (mentioned in your 3rd para) if these are just taken as a step further towards the final solution of the issue. The proposal can be a temporary answer to Kashmir problem but then it cant be taken as a permanent solution as it wont lead to absolute peace. The reason being my point is that after converting the LoC into IB, there would still be some factions and areas left on the East of the LoC-converted-into-IB who would not be happy to join india and thus could become a reason behind another issue entailing militancy and freedom movements - so we would be back at square one again, which ofcourse no one wants.

And what would this "faction" want to join to in your opinion. If you say independance, I can understand that, but is GoP ready to allow Pakistani Kashmir and NA to become independant?

If you say Pakistan then I'm afraid you are not aware of the ground realities. As the many opinion polls and the recent survey showed. Overall, in Indian side 2% wanted to join to Pakistan while 21% overall opted for India.
 
And what would this "faction" want to join to in your opinion. If you say independance, I can understand that, but is GoP ready to allow Pakistani Kashmir and NA to become independant?
Actually Pakistan is not as dheet as india.
If you say Pakistan then I'm afraid you are not aware of the ground realities. As the many opinion polls and the recent survey showed. Overall, in Indian side 2% wanted to join to Pakistan while 21% overall opted for India.

Oh that polls, right.

The ones that have already been rubbished by me and many alike. Take some time out and dig those buried deep inside this thread and see hat we said about such polls.

BTW, if you people are so fond of polls and feel elated by posting them here, why dont you allow a direct plebiscite? Doodh ka doodh and stuff, right?
 
And yes, if i remember correctly it was you and that toxic pus who so lavishly posted the polls. i think you have forgotten the replies given back then and just want to run in circles over and over again.
 
^^Have you read the recent survey conducted by the Chatham house and their conclusion particularly with regard to the plebescite.

If you haven't then its no use discussing further. Please go through the report carefully. Note that it doesn't include the NA areas which could have been more negative towards Pakistan keeping in mind the local sentiment.
Chatham House - Publications - Reports and Papers - Kashmir: Paths to Peace

While you are at it, you can check out another poll done by an Irish professor at
www.peacepolls.org

and check out the EU resolution of the Kashmir issue. You can google the report but the relevant part is this article here
EU Report Says Plebiscite Not In Kashmiris' Interest

One of the main reason being the plebiscite does not have independence as an option (which was removed on GoP insistence btw).
 
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