The end of traditional style in China/Japan/Korea etc

[313ghazi]

Nowadays if I see images of China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Philippenes the clothes worn by everyone is in a western style. I don't think it is common to see someone wearing traditional clothes. When did this transition happen and why? Do people still wear traditional clothes, or are they reserved for just occassions?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Nowadays if I see images of China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Philippenes the clothes worn by everyone is in a western style. I don't think it is common to see someone wearing traditional clothes. When did this transition happen and why? Do people still wear traditional clothes, or are they reserved for just occassions?

All of China, Japan and Koreas are Westoxified and slaves to Western culture. They spent all their energy after 1940s being Western. Look at China.

* It adopted athiest Western political philosophy called Marxism. Karl Marx was German wrote his book in London.

* It adopted Western clothes. Men and women etc etc
* It adopted other aspects of Western clothing etc etc
* It adopted Western style of female rights etc etc

Today you got to Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen all you is is Western culture being openly touted. They are in short today Westoxified and successful.


Traditional China

Shanghai today - Westoxified?

And to my Chinese friends do not think I am disparaging you. To be able adapt, change, learn, progress by taking what is the best from the human experiance without getting constipated is indicatitive of a dynamic and progressive society. Something Pakistanis need to learn. We sadly and that includes me are stuck with tradition. It has us imprisoned in our own horror story. We just repeat the failed recipe. More, more, more of the same.

@AndrewJin etc

 

[Beast]

All of China, Japan and Koreas are Westoxified and slaves to Western culture. They spent all their energy after 1940s being Western. Look at China.

* It adopted athiest Western political philosophy called Marxism. Karl Marx was German wrote his book in London.

* It adopted Western clothes. Men and women etc etc
* It adopted other aspects of Western clothing etc etc
* It adopted Western style of female rights etc etc

Today you got to Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen all you is is Western culture being openly touted. They are in short today Westoxified and successful.


Traditional China

Shanghai today - Westoxified?

And to my Chinese friends do not think I am disparaging you. To be able adapt, change, learn, progress by taking what is the best from the human experiance without getting constipated is indicatitive of a dynamic and progressive society. Something Pakistanis need to learn. We sadly and that includes me are stuck with tradition. It has us imprisoned in our own horror story. We just repeat the failed recipe. More, more, more of the same.

@AndrewJin etc

That is not western style. That is called the modern attired. Western style is Gothic.

You mixed up between western and modern attire.

 

[武成王]

All of China, Japan and Koreas are Westoxified and slaves to Western culture. They spent all their energy after 1940s being Western. Look at China.

* It adopted athiest Western political philosophy called Marxism. Karl Marx was German wrote his book in London.

* It adopted Western clothes. Men and women etc etc
* It adopted other aspects of Western clothing etc etc
* It adopted Western style of female rights etc etc

Today you got to Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen all you is is Western culture being openly touted. They are in short today Westoxified and successful.


Traditional China

Shanghai today - Westoxified?

China certainly should *learn* positive things from European civilization if China can benefit from it. Every Chinese dynasty has its own different version of cloth, tradition although the change of 19th century is so dramatic that it looks very different from the past. The essence of Chinese civilization is *the art of change and adaption to change*, Zhou Yi (周易) is a representative classic of such philosophy. You won't enjoy wearing a fur coat in summer.
Marxism has its value China can benefit from *a lot*, e.g. fairness, the limitation of political influence from private capital, the right of woman etc etc. We're not shamed to learn from others as long as the others offer any valuable ideology which can be accepted and leveraged to boost the development of China because we deeply know the world is changing fast very day, we can't stick to old ideology and tradition if they're out of date and become a blockade of our advancement.

We're not interested to enforce our idea to others, however we're open to learn from others. If the rest of world feel the idea from China can be useful for them, then good for them, if not, we also don't care.

But one thing you're perfectly right, the cloth. I appreciate the beauty of our classical cloth, however the style must be *changed* to adapt to modern life reserving the taste of classical beauty. I believe there will be a sort of *new age Chinese traditional cloth* in the foreseeable future.

 

[313ghazi]

China certainly should *learn* positive things from European civilization if China can benefit from it. Every Chinese dynasty has its own different version of cloth, tradition although the change of 19th century is so dramatic that it looks very different from the past. The essence of Chinese civilization is *the art of change and adaption to change*, Zhou Yi (周易) is a representative classic of such philosophy. You won't enjoy wearing a fur coat in summer.
Marxism has its value China can benefit from *a lot*, e.g. fairness, the limitation of political influence from private capital, the right of woman etc etc. We're not shamed to learn from others as long as the others offer any valuable ideology which can be accepted and leveraged to boost the development of China because we deeply know the world is changing fast very day, we can't stick to old ideology and tradition if they're out of date and become a blockade of our advancement.

We're not interested to enforce our idea to others, however we're open to learn from others. If the rest of world feel the idea from China can be useful for them, then good for them, if not, we also don't care.

But one thing you're perfectly right, the cloth. I appreciate the beauty of our classical cloth, however the style must be *changed* to adapt to modern life reserving the taste of classical beauty. I believe there will be a sort of *new age Chinese traditional cloth* in the foreseeable future.

Was there an active thought process involved in it all changing?

Take Pakistan for example, i think Western clothes are more practical in the winter, so i will wear them in the winter in Pakistan. If i am in Pakistan during the summer i will wear our traditional clothes. I think most Pakistani's wear the traditional clothes all year round, though in urban areas i have seen most young people of middle upper class wearing western clothes. It's a fashion choice.

i might be wrong, but i think in the far east, people don't wear their traditional clothes at all during normal daily life - which is why i am interested to see why that changed.

That is not western style. That is called the modern attired.

Other cultures (Some African ones, Arab ones, central asian ones) have modern attire which is still in the form of traditional clothes. For example, in Pakistan many people have stopped wearing Turbans, but in my grandfathers time, men commonly wore a turban. We still wear salwar kameez but the designs have changed, people have more pockets etc.

I have seen old martial arts movies (bruce lee ones) and wonder why people changed from the kind of clothes worn then, to those worn now? Is it just fashion?

 

[武成王]

Was there an active thought process involved in it all changing?

In the 19th-20th century, to counter the bully from imperialism and save China from the hell, the elite of Chinese nationalist pushed various initiative of *learning from foreigner*, *liberation from governance of old ideology*, the cloth is a just a phenomenon of such initiative. There're also some other factor affect the result, e.g. the rise of modern industry, it's very dangerous to wear tradition cloth in factory, this fashion first started in e.g. Shanghai where is the cradle of Chinese modern industry, many workers wear western work cloth, then eventually the simple, compact style was spread across all China.

The only thing don't change is the change itself.

 

[GS Zhou]

Traditional China

Can this be even called as traditional Chinese? To be accurate, it could only be called as "Qing Dynasty Tradition". The people from the Ming Dynasty wear differently to Qing; and People from the Yuan wear differently to Ming; and Song different to Yuan. It is a long chain.

So the question becomes: which Dynasty we should choose to present for the "traditional Chinese wearing"? Maybe Han? Because it brings us Chinese great honor? But wait, there was no chair in the Han Dynasty, so people in Han sit in this way, like this picture shows. Do we need to follow this tradition too??

We Chinese cherish and honor our history/culture greatly. But the way we cherish or honor the Chinese history/culture is not reflected from what we wear today, or how we sit, but from our continual master or recites of the ancient Chinese scripts, ancient books, ancient history records, or ancient poems; many of them were even written down in more than 2,500years before, but the Chinese today, even the young kids, could still read and recognize them.

For example, a textile product digged from a Han Dynasty (~2,000 years before) tomb from Xinjiang. The scripts shown on it, they could be easily recognized by every Chinese today, even small kids (I've done the tests for multiple times). For any other countries, read and understand 2,000years old ancient scripts is the privilege to very few well-trained historians. But in China, this is a job could even be done by small kids.

That's the way we Chinese cherish and honor our culture.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

To all my Chinese friends here. I know where you are coming from. I have been brought up in UK with Pakistani heritage so I know what clicks. I also have been exposed to many Chinese, One of my distan relatives was brought up in Hong Kong and speaks fluent Chinese. They moved to UK post 1998. So I know the nuances you mention.

But our audience here is Pakistanis. Many if not majority are stuck in narrow blinkered worldview. I myself am included in that to a degree. But if you want really to help your friend you must tell him the some real hard hometruths. Or your neighbour Pakistan will always be stuck in middle ages. I hope Chinese will force open or shock open the closed Pakistani mind.

For instance right now what do you think is the biggest political item in Pakistan? The mullahs have blocked off the capital of 200 million nuclear power and the country cannot do anything. This is because they are so beholden to the traditional clergy and medieval thinking nobody dare question them.

China can spend $500 billion on CPEC but if the mindset does not change it will turn out a abject failure. It is our minds, our thinking that define and fuel progress. Not concrete.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...2eac66-c6fa-11e7-9922-4151f5ca6168_story.html

 

[武成王]

To all my Chinese friends here. I know where you are coming from. I have been brought up in UK with Pakistani heritage so I know what clicks. I also have been exposed to many Chinese, One of my distan relatives was brought up in Hong Kong and speaks fluent Chinese. They moved to UK post 1998. So I know the nuances you mention.

But our audience here is Pakistanis. Many if not majority are stuck in narrow blinkered worldview. I myself am included in that to a degree. But if you want really to help your friend you must tell him the some real hard hometruths. Or your neighbour Pakistan will always be stuck in middle ages. I hope Chinese will force open or shock open the closed Pakistani mind.

For instance right now what do you think is the biggest political item in Pakistan? The mullahs have blocked off the capital of 200 million nuclear power and the country cannot do anything. This is because they are so beholden to the traditional clergy and medieval thinking nobody dare question them.

China can spend $500 billion on CPEC but if the mindset does not change it will turn out a abject failure. It is our minds, our thinking that define and fuel progress. Not concrete.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...2eac66-c6fa-11e7-9922-4151f5ca6168_story.html

Every nation has it own historical and culture root you can't copy a model and apply it onto your own country, it simply won't work as expected. Pakistan is a Islamic state, most of the people are Muslim, this is the ground reality you have to face. CPEC is an economic initiative, and limited only to economy field, I'm sure both the China and Pakistan government understand this point.

 

[313ghazi]

In the 19th-20th century, to counter the bully from imperialism and save China from the hell, the elite of Chinese nationalist pushed various initiative of *learning from foreigner*, *liberation from governance of old ideology*, the cloth is a just a phenomenon of such initiative. There're also some other factor affect the result, e.g. the rise of modern industry, it's very dangerous to wear tradition cloth in factory, this fashion first started in e.g. Shanghai where is the cradle of Chinese modern industry, many workers wear western work cloth, then eventually the simple, compact style was spread across all China.

The only thing don't change is the change itself.

Thanks thats really useful.

To all my Chinese friends here. I know where you are coming from. I have been brought up in UK with Pakistani heritage so I know what clicks. I also have been exposed to many Chinese, One of my distan relatives was brought up in Hong Kong and speaks fluent Chinese. They moved to UK post 1998. So I know the nuances you mention.

But our audience here is Pakistanis. Many if not majority are stuck in narrow blinkered worldview. I myself am included in that to a degree. But if you want really to help your friend you must tell him the some real hard hometruths. Or your neighbour Pakistan will always be stuck in middle ages. I hope Chinese will force open or shock open the closed Pakistani mind.

For instance right now what do you think is the biggest political item in Pakistan? The mullahs have blocked off the capital of 200 million nuclear power and the country cannot do anything. This is because they are so beholden to the traditional clergy and medieval thinking nobody dare question them.

China can spend $500 billion on CPEC but if the mindset does not change it will turn out a abject failure. It is our minds, our thinking that define and fuel progress. Not concrete.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...2eac66-c6fa-11e7-9922-4151f5ca6168_story.html

You can take the colonialists out of the colony, but you can't take the colony out of the colonised. Your attitude sounds no different to those Indians who praise the era of British rule for building railways...lol Have a look around for a bit of dignity - it's in there somewhere.

For instance right now what do you think is the biggest political item in Pakistan? The mullahs have blocked off the capital of 200 million nuclear power and the country cannot do anything. This is because they are so beholden to the traditional clergy and medieval thinking nobody dare question them.

Largest political item? First of all it's a sit in on 1 motorway. I've sat through worse traffic jams because of car accidents. Secondly the state can do what it wants - it chooses not too exactly because people like you think this is a large political event. This is number 1 in the headlines, it is number 1 in the discussion panels on the TV, all because the government chooses not to react and move these people on. It serves as a mask from the real news.

Whilst people sit in their drawing rooms and wonder what to do about the troll under the motorway bridge;

- Our former PM and his family are being picked apart for corruption by the courts
- Our current finance minister is facing the same fate and is in court on the same charges
- There is a marked increase in violence in Balochistan, a key province in the CPEC plans

All this is brushed under the carpet and ignored by the media, exactly as the government wants because they are actively and successfully managing a distraction.

 

[Mista]

All of China, Japan and Koreas are Westoxified and slaves to Western culture.

How silly. You mean all non traditional clothes are designed by the West? If you think wearing them is toxic and make them slaves, then it just shows tribalistic your culture is. It's actually YOUR thinking which is toxic, and YOU'RE the slave to your own culture because you cannot accept anything non-indigenous.

So why are you using English in this forum? Wearing watches? Phones? Computers? Internet? They are Western in origin. Aren't they toxic and makes you a slave?

 

[Sanchez]

There‘s a book about Chinese costumes since ancient times，consisting of more than 750 pages！In the contryside people would sometimes wear traditional dresses to celebrate festivals through dancing，opera performing and etc. In the cities some young couple would wear traditional dresses to get married. I don’t see anything wrong about this！

Shall we all wear Han dynasty dresses that existed 2000 years ago？

 

[313ghazi]

There‘s a book about Chinese costumes since ancient times，consisting of more than 750 pages！In the contryside people would sometimes wear traditional dresses to celebrate festivals through dancing，opera performing and etc. In the cities some young couple would wear traditional dresses to get married. I don’t see anything wrong about this！

Shall we all wear Han dynasty dresses that existed 2000 years ago？

Wear whatever you like, my post is not questioning what you wear, it is wondering why you wear attire that is exactly the same as the attire worn in European countries or countries who are descendants of Europeans. @hackerdelight answered my questions from a Chinese perspective.

Unless someone wants to contribute anything from an alternative perspective - the matter is closed as far as i'm concerned.

Do we have any Japanese or Korean members? Perhaps anyone from Thailand or Veitnam or the Philippenes?

 

[Mista]

Shall we all wear Han dynasty dresses that existed 2000 years ago？

No no no, that's not early enough. We should wear Shang dynasty clothing since it's even more indigenous and authentic.

Oh wait, I think we shouldn't even wear clothes! I'm very sure my ancestors 100,000 years ago didn't wear any clothes in everyday life!

 

[313ghazi]

No no no, that's not early enough. We should wear Shang dynasty clothing since it's even more indigenous and authentic.

Oh wait, I think we shouldn't even wear clothes! I'm very sure my ancestors 100,000 years ago didn't wear any clothes in everyday life!

You guys seem quite touchy about this. Is this a contencious issue in your society? If not - then why the "edgey" response?