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the effectiveness of the aircraft carrier

I think Aircraft carriers are not about luxury, its about strategies. India needs it because ofits geographical location with vast coastal area. In the case of Pakistan it only requires submarines with larger coverage area and its army well aware of it too.
 
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yes i agree pakistan dont need aircraft carrier we need landing ships
as far as india is concerned she also dont need AC
they are not going to operate away from their land then why they are going behind AC I think they are just doing this to come in par with other naval powers
 
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No mate...India needs aircraft carriers. we need it for our fleet defence and as our fleet is a combination of both surface and sub surface combatants and the doctrine is based on battle groups we need an AC.
 
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I just wonder, what if we could get precise accuracy ie: like on a harpoon or an exocet or may be gprs guided on a ballistic missile or an icbm, how close would aircraft carriers then come as the range of the jets it carries then becomes nullified by the threat of the range of the enemy missile. Imagine a country like north korea with such weapons, it would leave the american aircraft carriers in the middle of the pacific rather than striking range.
Just a scenario!
 
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in a future dominated by low intensity conflict, the aircraft carrier becomes a useful tool.

but if two majors ever go at it, the aircraft carriers are not going to be involved. ASMs are too cheap and can be fired in such great numbers that risking a carrier would be foolish.

no matter how much they spend on defence, saturation attacks will overwhelm whatever they have - and you've spent way less money.
 
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I just wonder, what if we could get precise accuracy ie: like on a harpoon or an exocet or may be gprs guided on a ballistic missile or an icbm, how close would aircraft carriers then come as the range of the jets it carries then becomes nullified by the threat of the range of the enemy missile. Imagine a country like north korea with such weapons, it would leave the american aircraft carriers in the middle of the pacific rather than striking range.
Just a scenario!
An Exocet-type missile defense against aircraft carriers is only as effective as the missile's effective range. There is a great difference between effective and maximum range of any aircraft that rely on finite fuel quantity, and yes, a missile is an aircraft. The actual Exocet's range is about 70km. Say an Exocet-type missile has a maximum range of 100km but if this missile is programmed to execute evasive maneuvers in its flight path, effective range could be as short as 50km. Maneuvers consumes fuel and increases flight time.

The USN is moving towards using the F-18 Super Hornet as the mainstay of its aircraft carrier operations, from fleet defense to air-air refueling to ECM platforms. A ground strike configured F-18E/F has an effective range of 500-600km, to be conservative and with no air-air refueling. That is ten times the effective range of this Exocet-type missile and five times its maximum range, of the latter, no sane missile battery commander would launch his missiles at maximum range. In a conflict, the aircraft carrier will not be within visual shore range anyway and with its strike aircrafts having far greater effective strike range than the defender's Exocet-type missiles, there is no contest. Advantage: aircraft carrier.

As for using ballistic missiles against aircraft carriers, while it is theoretically possible on paper, it is not practical and the obstacle is that the ship is a moving target. Ballistic trajectories, even if this ballistic missile is GPS guided, are best against stationary surface targets. An aircraft carrier during flight operations usually sail into the wind and in doing so, often execute unpredictable maneuvers to maintain against the wind heading. Even if the ballistic flight time is 5 minutes, the descending warhead will be heading towards the sea surface where the aircraft carrier was minutes ago -- empty sea. Active guidance demands immediate responses from a maneuvering system and the shorter this ballistic flight time, the less margin of error is available for this guidance system to compensate for the new location of its target. An aircraft carrier steaming at 30kts will travel about 50km in an hour. Do the math and if the ballistic warhead missed the ship by 100 meters, the ship win. For a non-nuclear warhead, it is either a direct hit or the ship survive to continue 'conflict prosecution'.

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in a future dominated by low intensity conflict, the aircraft carrier becomes a useful tool.
Absolutely. Low intensity conflicts usually involves technologically unequal adversaries. The aircraft carrier becomes more of staging platform than an active combat participant.

but if two majors ever go at it, the aircraft carriers are not going to be involved.
Already happened. WW II Battle of Midway was when major aircraft carrier fleets never came within each other's artillery range.

ASMs are too cheap and can be fired in such great numbers that risking a carrier would be foolish.

no matter how much they spend on defence, saturation attacks will overwhelm whatever they have - and you've spent way less money.
See missile's effective versus strike aircraft's effective range. Advantage: aircraft carrier.
 
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First Anti Ship Ballistic Missile system in the world!

You are wrong dude.
China is the first country that operates the ASBM which can strike the US CV before, they can come close enough to strike chinese littoral targets.

The system are made up by 3 key components.

1. Long range Over The Horizon radar which can detect large vessel up to 3000km of distance.

2. Remote sensing satellite for target identification.

3. Medium Range Ballistic missile that can reach the target zone within 13 minutes. They have terminal search&homing system. They can be also armed with cluster munition to assure a greater hit chance. (warplane can not take off from a damaged deck)

OTH range
hXXp://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1417/othradarrange.jpg


MRBM range vs F-18 range
hXXp://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1364/cvvsdf21.jpg



The key difference is that this time the US CV can no more intercept the lauching platform before it reaches the striking range.
And this makes a huge difference!
 
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First Anti Ship Ballistic Missile system in the world!

You are wrong dude.
China is the first country that operates the ASBM which can strike the US CV before, they can come close enough to strike chinese littoral targets.
No credible evidences for this claim, other what the Chinese chose.

The system are made up by 3 key components.

1. Long range Over The Horizon radar which can detect large vessel up to 3000km of distance.
Over-the-horizon radar is nothing new. The problem is the frequency in which this method rely upon: HF 3-30 mhz. The wavelength is about 1-100 meters. Basic radar detection principles have anything below 1ghz to be unreliable regarding target resolutions, such as range and aspect angle respect to transmission source. Any radar operating in this freq range can at best deduce that there is <something> there and perhaps moving with very coarse target velocity information. So yes, even though the target is large, an aircraft carrier, the target is 'there' and that is all this freq range can tell us.

2. Remote sensing satellite for target identification.
Satellites move, just in case you do not know, and could move out of the desired detection area.

3. Medium Range Ballistic missile that can reach the target zone within 13 minutes. They have terminal search&homing system.
What is the method of sensor? Radar or infrared or both? Each method has a countermeasure. For radar, a ship can launch several chaff canisters that can produce a radar target electronically thousands of square km, totally blanketing the sensor's radar field of view. Same for IR flares. What is the method of the terminal guidance response for the descending warhead of this mythical Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile? Reaction jets or aerodynamics? The descending warhead has no chance to reacquire the target because it is...descending.

They can be also armed with cluster munition to assure a greater hit chance. (warplane can not take off from a damaged deck)
A ballistic warhead has limited space for the explosive device, be it nuclear or otherwise. Cluster munitions can mean any number of individual explosive units. The larger the individual explosive device, aka 'bomblet', the less the warhead can carry, and the problem is evident for the missile designer. What should be the release altitude? The higher the release altitude, the larger the spread area and therefore increased odds of a miss for any individual explosive device. To compensate the missile designer can use smaller bomblets but the smaller the bomblet the less damage it can produce. And do not forget that decks can be repaired.

Do some research on how aircrafts deliver cluster munitions and the effective altitude for the method.

The key difference is that this time the US CV can no more intercept the lauching platform before it reaches the striking range.

And this makes a huge difference!
Over-the-horizon radars are usually large arrays, as in tens of meters in array diameter, and are not very mobile. The US will have them already targeted in different attack methods, cruise missiles, for example. Destroy them and the Chinese defense will be blind.
 
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I believe that even USSR extensively thought of and worked on the idea of an AShM Ballistic Missile, and they later on dropped it.
 
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@Gambit

Here there is a article which provide a interesting overall analisis:
hXXp://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2009/03/plan-asbm-development.html]Information Dissemination: PLAN ASBM development

No credible evidences for this claim, other what the Chinese chose.
Did you read the Pentagon Chinese Military Capability Report 2009?
And what makes you think that chinese source are not credible? You know the propaganda is always multilateral, here in Europe we also dout a lot about your american propaganda claims.

Over-the-horizon radar is nothing new...
The low resolution of long wavelengh radar is nothing new. Chinese officials are aware of that too. Indeed, the major part of the work must to done by the terminal guidance.

Satellites move, just in case you do not know, and could move out of the desired detection area.
Indeed you need a costellation of satellites. Otherwise you can go for UAV, which have a higher survivebility.

What is the method of sensor? Radar or infrared or both?...
There is various speculation about this. Some PLA officials said that the warhead has little time to do correction manouvers before the atmosphere rentry, so I bet it will use image sensing guidance to aim at the carrier and then dive straight. Other western sources says it will use Ative/Passive Radar guidance+MaRV tecnology.

A ballistic warhead has limited space for the explosive device...
Well, don't worry for the payload. The DF-25 missile is a smart example, they sacrificed the range in favor of the payload. (2000 kg of warhead at 1800km). And no one said they will launch only one missile to attack the CV group, in a real war scenrio, a saturation attack is needed anyway.
Sorry, but you can not repair your deck quickly and in loco, in a real war scenario, your CV group will be soon attack by a swarm of air lauched cruise missile, so if your FA-18 can not take off to intercept the launching platform, I don't know if your DDGs can stand up to a saturation attack.

Over-the-horizon radars are usually large arrays, as in tens of meters in array diameter, and are....
What makes you think the US force can strike successfully what they want? And what makes you think that chinese forces are defenceless? Cruise missiles can be intercepted, their launching platforms too.
Plus GPS guidance system will not work in a real war scenrio vs China or any other major military power. They can be easily disrupted. So, say good-bye to all sort of GPS-guided munition. From the chinese side they also know that any Beidou-1 or Beidou-2 system will not work on US forces.
So, when you say something like "just strike their asset" please remeber that PLA is not a third world military, and they can strike back with their own cruise missile.

Please read "Rand Study: Air Combat Past, Present and Future", at nearly the end, they appointed that too much US land based assets are too close to China to be safe and too unprotected compared to those of the Chinese side.
 
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A aircraft carrier in PN is nothing but a fan boys dream. And heres a summery from this thread ...

&#8226; Why would Pakistan want an Aircraft carrier, we dont need any.
&#8226; You have to take into consideration that carriers are the nucleus of a large battle group that will include frigates, destroyers and submarines. If Pakistan were to go for a carrier right now then most of the existing fleet would have to be used just to defend the carrier.
&#8226; Its a strategical weapon! You might need it if you have a plan to invade anywhere! But its not worth it! Not worth it all! Its need heavy maintenance (Which need an astronomical budget $4-5 billion dollar per year!), Escort ships (2-7).
&#8226; The only country which can use this weapon sufficiently is the U.S because she has many of these toys, and they're very huge, capable of carrying up to 80 fighter and several helicopters. Anyway you can't invade any modern country just with a aircraft carrier which can only carry 15 or 20 aircraft.

Well im a peace loving person and don't think Pakistan should go around &#8220;projecting power&#8221;, nor any other country for that matter. But of course this doesn't happen in the real world. So heres what i think, A aircraft carrier is a offensive weapon and Pakistan defense is based on defense mainly (plus we can afford defense only anyways), how many enemies Pakistan has other than India? The only answer some of you might say is Israel. Well i don't think Pakistan is stupid enough to deploy a carriers of the coast of Israel, the whole world will scream soo hard our ears will blow off.

In the current situation, the only realistic weapon for power projection on the world scale i can see for Pakistan is a nuclear tipped ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) because we have a very successful missile program, based on the fact that we already have the infrastructure and scientist/technology for that, its gonna be very cheap compared to building and &#8220;running/maintain&#8221; a AC in the short and of course in the long run. Nuclear tipped ICBM sitting in a silo for 50 years of deterrent and power projection will cost nothing compared to 50 years of operating a AC. Plus I am pretty sure Pakistan in already working on it. Plus always remember the money we save from AC wont be dumped in fire but will be used on other projects.
:coffee:
thnx
 
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yes i agree. they are difficult to maintain and to protect them.
may be the countries operating away from their border need them.
we should aquire good subs to check AC of enemy
 
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no need for it for us!!

well it is not only the cost issue but even if we have the budget (supose) we do not need it,

pakistan have a short coast line compared to its neighbor!
we have airbases along the shore and can get airborne from there to protect our seas!

for offensive purpose! we dont have any such intention!
all our offense is the defense of our country and for these we have nice arsenal of missiles, both ballistic to destroy enemy bases and cruise for precision attacks!
carrier are need if you need a home away from home, it can provide you with an air field miles away from you country to attack your enemy and we dont have any such enemy!!!

for me it is the same case with atomic submarines! they are required for ballistic missile launch platform near the enemy and our enemy is near us and within the range of our land launched missiles! also there is not Much need to spend such huge amount of money just to buy extra under sea time, the ability of our subs to stay at sea for 35 to 45 days is good enough for us considering our finance limitations

i hope my argument helps you!

looking forward for your response!!

regards!
 
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@Gambit

Here there is a article which provide a interesting overall analisis:
hXXp://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2009/03/plan-asbm-development.html]Information Dissemination: PLAN ASBM development
I have not read this particular one, but there are several other Internet sources predated this one that essentially carried the same information. You have nothing new.

Did you read the Pentagon Chinese Military Capability Report 2009?
Yes I have. Figure 4 of the report have a very simplistic diagram of the differences between guidance types of this mythical Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile. It is technically lacking as the report was meant to give the reader 'the big picture'. Only alarmists, the gullibles and those desperate to minimize US military technology would take Figure 4 and its brief explanation on page 21 as anything remotely resembling a credible threat.

And what makes you think that chinese source are not credible?
How about a few tests?

You know the propaganda is always multilateral, here in Europe we also dout a lot about your american propaganda claims.
Do not care about any propaganda claims not relevant to military technology. If anything, the US military prefers to be underestimated.

The low resolution of long wavelengh radar is nothing new. Chinese officials are aware of that too. Indeed, the major part of the work must to done by the terminal guidance.
Am willing to wager that it is new to you. Initially, you brought on over-the-horizon (OTH) radar as if it was some kind of technical hurdle that only the very best technologically savvy would possess. I suggest you read up on the Chain Home and Chain Home Low radar systems of Battle of Britain fame. Atmospheric deflections of the HF freqs were already known, only primitive data processing and video integration/display of some OTH detections prevented the British from fully exploiting this phenomenon.

Indeed you need a costellation of satellites. Otherwise you can go for UAV, which have a higher survivebility.
Among the PLA's generals and admirals, at least one of them must have said the Donald Rumsfeld's version of going 'to war with the Army you have'. So until China is able to wield an orbital sensor system that has the same level of constancy and resolutions as the US, the argument that this mythical Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile can receive target position updates via satellites and be effective against an American aircraft carrier battle group is pointless. It is speculative at best.

There is various speculation about this. Some PLA officials said that the warhead has little time to do correction manouvers before the atmosphere rentry, so I bet it will use image sensing guidance to aim at the carrier and then dive straight. Other western sources says it will use Ative/Passive Radar guidance+MaRV tecnology.
So now we have still more uncertainty and doubts about the technical feasability of this mythical Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile.

Well, don't worry for the payload. The DF-25 missile is a smart example, they sacrificed the range in favor of the payload. (2000 kg of warhead at 1800km). And no one said they will launch only one missile to attack the CV group, in a real war scenrio, a saturation attack is needed anyway.
In a real war scenario, the entire carrier battle group will be under strict emission control (EMCON) protocols, EMCON Alpha. Back in 1986, the USS Ranger left the California coast and became the 'stealth' carrier. For weeks, the Ranger conducted ground strikes against land targets while other US ships and aircrafts attempted to find her. All air operations were conducted through visuals. In this same real world scenario, a US aircraft carrier battle group will deploy electronic decoys and the low resolutions limitations of OTH radar will be conducive to seduction. This is not jamming. The Chinese will wasting their missiles.

Sorry, but you can not repair your deck quickly and in loco, in a real war scenario, your CV group will be soon attack by a swarm of air lauched cruise missile, so if your FA-18 can not take off to intercept the launching platform, I don't know if your DDGs can stand up to a saturation attack.
That is a blanket charge you cannot support. I do not know what is your country of origin, but the US have 11 aircraft carriers. How many aircraft carriers does your country deploy at any time in the calendar year? No one in the world have more experience than we with this type. In my 10yrs in the USAF, I did a stint as Aircraft Battle Damage Repair (ABDR) instructor. I can guarantee you that if there is a mechanical flight control system, with a broomstick and aluminum from a soda six-pack, I can get the damaged flight control system flight worthy in two hours.

What makes you think the US force can strike successfully what they want?
Recently? How about Iraq?

And what makes you think that chinese forces are defenceless?
To be 'defenceless' mean to have no defense at all. Nowhere have I said that the Chinese are 'defenceless'. Whether the PLA can be successful or not is a different issue.

Cruise missiles can be intercepted, their launching platforms too.
A cruise missile is just another type of aircraft. But the first problem with trying to shoot down an aircraft is detection. Do not confuse 'can' with 'will'.

Plus GPS guidance system will not work in a real war scenrio vs China or any other major military power. They can be easily disrupted. So, say good-bye to all sort of GPS-guided munition. From the chinese side they also know that any Beidou-1 or Beidou-2 system will not work on US forces.
Did you forget that the GPS system is created by the US? The system originally had a feature called Selective Availability. Under SA, there was an intentional error margin induced designed to give military usage of GPS a tactical advantage. The feature was ordered deactivated by President Clinton and future GPS satellites will not have SA, however, the US still can manipulate the clock timing signals of one or a few satellites temporarily over an area of conflict to give US forces the same advantage under SA. Yes...Civilian GPS usage will be affected during the time of the conflict but it will be temporary.

So, when you say something like "just strike their asset" please remeber that PLA is not a third world military, and they can strike back with their own cruise missile.

Please read "Rand Study: Air Combat Past, Present and Future", at nearly the end, they appointed that too much US land based assets are too close to China to be safe and too unprotected compared to those of the Chinese side.
I have read many of those papers. Some of them have hard facts like these:

* Nuclear aircraft carriers (CVN)
U.S. = 11 China = 0

* VSTOL/helicopter carriers (LHA/LHD)
U.S. = 11 China = 0

* Guided missile cruisers (CG)
U.S. = 22 China = 0

* Destroyers (DDG/DD)
U.S. = 60 China = 27

* Frigates (FF/FFG)
U.S. = 30 China = 48

* Ballistic missile submarines (nuclear)(SSBN)
U.S. = 14 China = 3

* Attack/cruiser missile submarines (nuclear)(SSN/SSGN)
U.S. = 57 China = 6

* Attack submarine (non-nuclear) (SS/SSK)
U.S. = 0 China = 55

It was Stalin who said, loosely translated, that 'quantity has a quality all of its own'. This is a two-way street and the side that is numerically inferior is already at a disadvantage. Such a condition does not guarantee a defeat, but it is a factor that cannot be dismissed by the war planners. For a speculative US-China conflict, not only does the US holds the numerical advantage but also the technological advantage. It is only with the ground troops that China is superior and precisely because the US is able, with our aircraft carriers and long distance bombers, to carry the shooting war on Chinese soil, the ground troop numerical advantage hold by the PLA will not matter much.
 
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Already happened. WW II Battle of Midway was when major aircraft carrier fleets never came within each other's artillery range.

And not likely to happen again. Carrier vs carrier battles were a WW2 phenomenon. Today, bombers with mid-air refueling can circumnavigate the globe. The best way to kill a carrier is not with another carrier.

See missile's effective versus strike aircraft's effective range. Advantage: aircraft carrier.

The British, up against a small Argentine air force would not take that risk. Neither will the US - not with 5000+ potential casualties on board.

And consider that with ASMs able to launch from 300-350km away (which could easily be increased - this is a political restriction not a technical one), a carrier can not keep heavy CAP flying at the extremities of the engagement envelope from all directions, noise jamming blinding fleet AEW at these ranges, etc - it is just not possible to stop a determined enemy from launching a spread of ASMs at a carrier.
 
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