The Division of Power and Influence: The Role of Sunni and Shi’a Islam in the heart of the Crescent

[haviZsultan]

Sir, the Sunni-Shia divide, the topic of this thread, is as old as Islam itself.

There is no reason that without theocracies and their proponents that the shia sunni divide will not die out. I have as much respect for a shia and a lot more sympathy as for a sunni. The failure of Pakistani muslims in general is the failure of us to see from the other sects perspective. Shias have been killed like flies in Quetta, while there have been attacks in Karachi and Peshawar on shias as well. They are victims.

 

[Aepsilons]

But herein lies the dilemma: how can a theocracy accept any other entity as legitimate when it is convinced it can be the only true path? By definition, any other set of religious beliefs is unacceptable. Forever.

I would remind you to read into the works of the third great madhhab is that of the Shafii', founded by Muhammad ibn Idris al Shafi, who was probably the greatest legal scholar in Islamic history. He developed and introduced a principle many Muslims , to this day, have forgotten, but we have access to in the rich histories...this is the Usul al-figh. Muhammad ibn Idris al Shafi reminded the Body of Faith of the need to implement the treatise of acceptance on various ibadat (worship styles) and mu amalat (social matters).

Many of the Faith have forgotten this....

Do you honestly believe in such stuff born out of religious fantasies of a bygone era. Do you honestly think getting a correct interpretation of some religious book is the answer to Middle East's problem.

If the Christians in Europe are able to find cohension and acceptance even after their brutal wars (Catholic christendom vs Protestant christendom) throughout the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, then there is no reason Islam cannot.

Do you honestly believe in such stuff born out of religious fantasies of a bygone era.

I do not view it as a religious fantasy, but an actual reality for the Body of Faith and Revelation. So it is real. Fantasy would be the artificial drawing of post colonial nation state boundaries as what the British had done in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine/ Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the rest of post-colonial Africa , Asia. Those are artificial. Real is the religion of the region that potentiates, cultivates and builds the societies of the region and the acculturation processes of said region. That is real.

 

[VCheng]

I would remind you to read into the works of the third great madhhab is that of the Shafii', founded by Muhammad ibn Idris al Shafi, who was probably the greatest legal scholar in Islamic history. He developed and introduced a principle many Muslims , to this day, have forgotten, but we have access to in the rich histories...this is the Usul al-figh. Muhammad ibn Idris al Shafi reminded the Body of Faith of the need to implement the treatise of acceptance on various ibadat (worship styles) and mu amalat (social matters).

Many of the Faith have forgotten this....

Even that is no solution. Theocracies impose themselves as the only "true" path since it then gives pseudo-legitimacy to efforts to stamp out any and all dissent and diversity of thought, these being seen as threats to its very existence. The only solution is to remove religion from matters of State, as Europe learned after much bloodshed.

There is no reason that without theocracies and their proponents that the shia sunni divide will not die out. I have as much respect for a shia and a lot more sympathy as for a sunni. The failure of Pakistani muslims in general is the failure of us to see from the other sects perspective. Shias have been killed like flies in Quetta, while there have been attacks in Karachi and Peshawar on shias as well. They are victims.

The only solution is to ensure religion remains in the personal space and not the State.

 

[Aepsilons]

Even that is no solution. Theocracies impose themselves as the only "true" path since it then gives pseudo-legitimacy to efforts to stamp out any and all dissent and diversity of thought, these being seen as threats to its very existence. The only solution is to remove religion from matters of State, as Europe learned after much bloodshed.

As you may well known, that will be impossible in Saudi Arabia, which has included Wahhabi form of Sunni Islam as the state religion. As to Iran, well, i would give a greater possibility of Iran implementing a more enlightened approach.

In fact the House of Saud has had absolute control on Arabia since the late 18th century actually. Since the Emirate of Diriyah.

 

[Lord ZeN]

If the Christians in Europe are able to find cohension and acceptance even after their brutal wars (Catholic christendom vs Protestant christendom) throughout the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, then there is no reason Islam cannot.

If the Christians did it so can the Muslims in Middle East is an inappropriate way of thinking. There's hardly any similarity between the two and most importantly it's the 21st century not some 17th century where 95% of world population lived under crazy superstitious beliefs. Middle East faces multifaceted problems and this Shia-Sunni violence is just one of them.

I do not view it as a religious fantasy, but an actual reality for the Body of Faith and Revelation. So it is real. Fantasy would be the artificial drawing of post colonial nation state boundaries as what the British had done in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine/ Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the rest of post-colonial Africa , Asia. Those are artificial. Real is the religion of the region that potentiates, cultivates and builds the societies of the region and the acculturation processes of said region. That is real.

Nihonjin san
One may or may not believe in Religions/Gods/Spirits. It is his/her private matter. What religion to believe/follow is also an individual's private matter. How can anyone run a Region/country and take important decisions in accordance to some revelation/beliefs/myths of a particular religion. And yes the physical boundaries of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and others looks artificial and is main reason for tension in ME along with an over emphasis on religion in State administration and Tribalism.

 

[VCheng]

As you may well known, that will be impossible in Saudi Arabia, which has included Wahhabi form of Sunni Islam as the state religion. As to Iran, well, i would give a greater possibility of Iran implementing a more enlightened approach.

Any potential solution cannot be one-sided.

 

[Aepsilons]

Any potential solution cannot be one-sided.

Of course. However, currently under Salman's leadership, it is next to improbable. After the demise of Salman, Inshallah, yes.

In Fact Salman is probably THE WORST monarch to assume the throne in the House of Saud. The decision to place his son, only 30 years old, as the Minister of Defense and in control of the Military , in violation of traditional protocol is actually the worst decision.

 

[Daneshmand]

The only solution to to ensure religion remains in the personal space and not the State.

And how so? Any plan in that direction? Or it is just another fantasy?

@Nihonjin1051 and @haviZsultan are right in that, these problems must be solved at theological level. Islam is not containable the way you are envisioning it. The Islamic fiqh is too intrusive to be containable in manner you are wishing for.

Even in Christianity, these problems were eventually solved theologically by and large and then put to rest because a whole new body of ethics and morality was created by Western philosophers which replaced the need and the utility of Christian fiqh (which is not even as intrusive as is Islam, to begin with).

In Islamic lands, no serious philosophical work has been done and the only example of some minute and quite insignificant work done to solve these problems theologically are among Iranian Shias. The Sunni world has not even started to work on these problems. Take the example of Takfir, which is the need of the day and hour, in order to stop the bloodshed (mostly happening in Sunni lands by the way).

On another thread, I had told you and @Irfan Baloch that, this is the workload of centuries. Expect no smaller time frame.

And if you are thinking about regime change and coups and imposing foreign supported dictatorship, then I have to inform you that, these will only make the job of reaching a theological/philosophical solution more difficult and bloody. It is better for the world powers to disengage and let the Muslim world decide their own matters. It does not help when US navy is permanently anchored in Bahrain and Qatar, and when France keeps airbases in UAE and Saudi Arabia keeps bombing Yemenis using British hardware. Such support for one side of these theological forces in order to gain geopolitical brownies will only prolong bloodshed. Creating Takfiri proxies in Afghanistan or Syria in order to protect American hegemony will always backfire.

Let the Muslim world to grow at their own pace. Don't pour gasoline into the fire, should be the advice for the world powers.

 

[VCheng]

And how so? Any plan in that direction? Or it is just another fantasy?

@Nihonjin1051 and @haviZsultan are right in that, these problems must be solved at theological level. Islam is not containable the way you are envisioning it. The Islamic fiqh is too intrusive to be containable in manner you are wishing for.

Even in Christianity, these problems were eventually solved theologically by and large and then put to rest because a whole new body of ethics and morality was created by Western philosophers which replaced the need and the utility of Christian fiqh (which is not even as intrusive as is Islam, to begin with).

Similarly, either Islam will create a new body of ethic and morality for itself, or it will destroy itself, as we can see beginning to happen in areas of Muslim majorities. Evolve or die, a very natural law of the Creator.

 

[Daneshmand]

Similarly, either Islam will create a new body of ethic and morality for itself, or it will destroy itself, as we can see beginning to happen in areas of Muslim majorities. Evolve or die, a very natural law of the Creator.

Not really. The darkness can never be destroyed. It will remain dark. It is the light that is predisposed to destruction. It is the light that has to be lit and protected. Savagery is the end thermodynamic point to which society will fall in, and will remain so forever in absence of ethics and logic. It is not destroy-able. Rather it will self-perpetuate and self-replicate until and unless replaced by a lower entropy state for which alot of effort has to be put in over an extended period of time.

It is the work of centuries.

 

[VCheng]

Not really. The darkness can never be destroyed. It will remain dark. It is the light that is predisposed to destruction. It is the light that has to be lit and protected. Savagery is the end thermodynamic point to which society will fall in, and will remain so forever in absence of ethics and logic. It is not destroy-able. Rather it will self-perpetuate and self-replicate until and unless replaced by a lower entropy state for which alot of effort has to be put in over an extended period of time.

It is the work of centuries.

Sir, thermodynamics and theology simply do not mix.

 

[Daneshmand]

Sir, thermodynamics and theology simply do not mix.

That is your take.

I believe theology is just a component of human society. And society itself is an aggregate of individuals in a structure. Thermodynamic is a perfect way to describe it. By the way, the original purpose of theology also was to help structure the society, thus lowering its entropy.

And I can assure you, I am not the first or the only person who has looked at society this way.

 

[VCheng]

That is your take.

I believe theology is just a component of human society. And society itself is an aggregate of individuals in a structure. Thermodynamic is a perfect way to describe it. By the way, the original purpose of theology also was to help structure the society, thus lowering its entropy.

And I can assure you, I am not the first or the only person who has looked at society this way.

Sir, sciences such as thermodynamics go by verifiable facts and experimentation. Theology is all about beliefs that cannot be verified or analyzed. Never shall the twain meet.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

And how so? Any plan in that direction? Or it is just another fantasy?

@Nihonjin1051 and @haviZsultan are right in that, these problems must be solved at theological level. Islam is not containable the way you are envisioning it. The Islamic fiqh is too intrusive to be containable in manner you are wishing for.

Even in Christianity, these problems were eventually solved theologically by and large and then put to rest because a whole new body of ethics and morality was created by Western philosophers which replaced the need and the utility of Christian fiqh (which is not even as intrusive as is Islam, to begin with).

In Islamic lands, no serious philosophical work has been done and the only example of some minute and quite insignificant work done to solve these problems theologically are among Iranian Shias. The Sunni world has not even started to work on these problems. Take the example of Takfir, which is the need of the day and hour, in order to stop the bloodshed (mostly happening in Sunni lands by the way).

On another thread, I had told you and @Irfan Baloch that, this is the workload of centuries. Expect no smaller time frame.

And if you are thinking about regime change and coups and imposing foreign supported dictatorship, then I have to inform you that, these will only make the job of reaching a theological/philosophical solution more difficult and bloody. It is better for the world powers to disengage and let the Muslim world decide their own matters. It does not help when US navy is permanently anchored in Bahrain and Qatar, and when France keeps airbases in UAE and Saudi Arabia keeps bombing Yemenis using British hardware. Such support for one side of these theological forces in order to gain geopolitical brownies will only prolong bloodshed. Creating Takfiri proxies in Afghanistan or Syria in order to protect American hegemony will always backfire.

Let the Muslim world to grow at their own pace. Don't pour gasoline into the fire, should be the advice for the world powers.

How come you expect the problem to be solved at the theological level when its pending for 1400 years? Some issues could have been "easily solved" in those bygone era when history was created in books, and disinformation was relatively easy.
An theological acceptance might have made sense if the Shia population world wide had been atleast 40%. But with 15% population they are determined to hold on the remaining population and Sunnis are not ready(and wont) ready to give in to the minority Shia arguement. The core problem lies in the shaming of PBUH's companions.

Another thing to be considered in "Christianity" enlightenment is not their philosophers. But an imperialistic nature they took which made their Kings more powerfull beyond the control of their clergy. Imperialism brought Industrial Revolution, IR brought modern science and inventions and scientists in the late 18th/early 19th century started questioning Gods. Its simply not a nature of "Western Philosophists" change. Change is needed in people to bring about an social effect. And those who bring change, survive, and those who dont, Middle east is the example.

In the words of Raghuram Rajan, RBI Governor, I had always loved this quote from him, Change is risky, but not changing is even riskier.

 

[Aepsilons]

If the Christians did it so can the Muslims in Middle East is an inappropriate way of thinking. There's hardly any similarity between the two and most importantly it's the 21st century not some 17th century where 95% of world population lived under crazy superstitious beliefs. Middle East faces multifaceted problems and this Shia-Sunni violence is just one of them.

Well there are some dichotomies between Islam and Christianity, but the two are largely in coordination with their basic tenets of the faith. In fact the Pillars of Islam actually coincide and consolidate upon as well as draw inspiration upon the Judeo-Christian notion of God's Law that manifested in the 10 Commandments, or for the Jewish sense, the Mitzvot (actually some 600+ messianic laws ordained to be realized and acted upon by Israel under revelation by God). The issue of differences lay in interpretation of the conclusion of the divinely inspired present world. In regards to theological influences, actually, my friend, we cannot ignore the present influence of religion and theological-based morality on the fundamental principles of the Universality of Man that has been the foundation upon the representative paradigm in modern governmental system(s), espoused in Socialism, Communism, Republicanism, Constitutional Monarchism, to Theological Republics.

If i may provide contextual examples, then let me draw upon the role of Judeo-Christian religious influence in the genesis of the American Bill of Rights, which were in turn influenced by European Enlightenment during the 17th and 18th centuries, which were themselves derived from Theological discourse and de-obfuscation of the day.

The role of religious ethic in public policy today in current legal charters. For example the Bill of Rights of the United States derive their ideation from Judeo Christian values and the Bible (Mikhael, 2015). In fact the formulation of the United States Constitution for the United States and the Magna Carta for the English were both charters influenced by Christian ethic and morality. These in turn helped to influence and formulate a representative form of governance over absolute control that was the tendency and trend of the day.In regards to application of religious ethic in context to health care in the United States, Georg, Kinghorn, Koenig, Gmmon and Blazer (2013) have posited the issue of needing transdisciplinary acceptance of faith practices and faith based ethics such as prayer dynamic in calculation of patient recovery rates. This is of special concern also for the psychiatric health of gerontology populations (George et al, 2013). Religious policy decision makers can still remain true to their faith while respective the individual spiritual belief systems of others by providing policy initiatives that enable patients to choose whether or not they can have plan of care that incorporates faith or not. The issue of choice should be the central theme.Morality derived from Judeo-Christian (and Islamic) values exists to this day. In fact it is in the Abrahamic Faith Family that modern concept of universality and fraternity came into existence in the global apperture.
Regards,
Kenji













Reference:

George, L. K., Kinghorn, W. A., Koenig, H. G., Gammon, P., & Blazer, D. G. (2013). Why gerontologists should care about empirical research on religion and health: Transdisciplinary perspectives. The Gerontologist, 53(6), 898-906. doi:10.1093/geront/gnt002


Mikhail, J. (2015). Jurisprudence And (Its) History: The Constitution And The Philosophy Of Language: Entailment, Implicature, And Implied Powers. Virginia Law Review, 1011063.