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The defeat of the Afghan government sparks debates across Taiwan about if Taiwan will become the same

Which part of 'no surprise' did you missed?

The reason why the Desert Storm air campaign was successful was because the coalition destroyed Iraqi border radars. China will not have that advantage due to the proximity of the island. If you can see them, they can see you.

Here is what you do not understand...

The PLAAF cannot attack Taiwanese targets en masse. This is not the movies. As each flight of missiles or manned aircraft engage the targets, as long as Taiwanese defense hit 1/4, but more likely 1/3, of the attacking force, the next planned attack will be modified or even aborted. Take manned fighter-bombers for now. Each 4-ship flight must coordinate with the other flights as to who go in first and from which direction. After the munitions are dropped, the next flight must wait essentially for the dust to clear before it can engage the target. And if the previous flight took losses, the next flight must alter its approach or even must abort. China and Taiwan are technological peers, unlike Desert Storm where the US had the advantage, and the PLAAF will take losses, and as losses mount, those quantity of PGM will not do any good.

1, China's shipbuilding capacity is 30 times that of the USA(per year 12 million tons:0.4 million tons)
2, The cost of shipbuilding in China is less than half that in the USA
055's cost is $0.9 billion.
Burke's cost $1.85 billion.
3, The USA lacks manufacturing, their government spending will cause prices to rise. But China will not, our production capacity is seriously surplus, and the government's spending on warships will only stimulate economic development.
4, Chinese warships are 100% domestic, from electromagnetic ejection devices to soldiers' underwear, all made in China. Chinese warships do not need to spend foreign exchange, and all the costs will enter our economic internal circulation. Or maybe we need to import some iron ore from Russia?
5, The most important difference is that China's social stability far exceeds that of the USA. Can American people tolerate a further three fold increase in military spending? Can the greedy Military industrial complex accept that the USA does not enter China's arms race trap?

The biggest problem in the United States is the lack of manufacturing and social instability.
The biggest problem in the USA is the lack of manufacturing and social instability. We will challenge in these two areas.
In Chinese, danger=危机. It has two words. 危 means danger and 机 means opportunity. The Chinese believe that danger and opportunity coexist.
So we think the Taiwan issue is not necessarily a danger for China, nor is it necessarily an opportunity for the United States.
In another 20 years, we will know the answer.
 
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Do know how many trillions of dollars worth of minerals and rare earth metals that Afghanistan has? Taiwan would never be able compete with Afghanistan.


2050 is too far away. It will be 2025 or earlier.

In fact, we are really not in a hurry.
2049 is the 100th anniversary of the founding of new China.
 
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Numb numb is pretty gentle mate, I didn't call you an idiot right. It has a hint of endearment too. Lol.
China is officially an technovratuc authoratarian government with limited form of democracy at the top, meaning they do vote but it is concentrated to the few thousand representative. Technocratic because the people at the top rose through merit and most are scientist or engineers by training. In the US its the opposite, they are run by lawyers. The difference is stark as China can execute policies better, America can promise policies.

I told you a 100x, China is only communist in name, it is more similar to Singapore than Soviets. Imagine a Singapore which is less efficient, hyper nationalistic, militarily more powerful and richer.

They? What happened in the US civil war? The southern states wanted independence, but the constitution did not allow for a devolution. Taiwan is a province in China, we are fighting a civil war now, did you know up till the 60s,the official policy of the KMT was to reconquer the mainland? If US let's California or Texas be independent, then you can come talk to me. Else... It's just bullshit.
You could have ended this discussion by saying "The civil was is not over for us". If any of you guys had said "The civil war is not over for us even if it's 70 years later",I would have said ok and left it there.
 
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Do know how many trillions of dollars worth of minerals and rare earth metals that Afghanistan has? Taiwan would never be able compete with Afghanistan.


2050 is too far away. It will be 2025 or earlier.
Vietnam has oil, gas, titanium and other worth trillions in dollars. But we need billions dollars to extract them.
The question is can Afghanistan draw in the money it requires to invest?
Any country needs a peaceful environment for foreign investment.
 
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Vietnam has oil, gas, titanium and other worth trillions in dollars. But we need billions dollars to extract them.
The question is can Afghanistan draw in the money it requires to invest?
Any country needs a peaceful environment for foreign investment.
Well said there!
 
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Vietnam has oil, gas, titanium and other worth trillions in dollars. But we need billions dollars to extract them.
The question is can Afghanistan draw in the money it requires to invest?
Any country needs a peaceful environment for foreign investment.

Vietnam does not have money because you are dumb and you fight with China while Afghanistan will have the money as they are wise and are making deals with China.

China a ‘welcome friend’ for reconstruction in Afghanistan: Taliban spokesman

Well said there!

Not quite. Not all people of the world are dumb like the people from ASEAN who keep fighting with China. and losing investments from China in the process.
 
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You could have ended this discussion by saying "The civil was is not over for us". If any of you guys had said "The civil war is not over for us even if it's 70 years later",I would have said ok and left it there.
The civil war had never ended genius. Its just a truce now, whereby investment and trade can still go on. A peace treaty can only be signed when the whole country is reunified. So when you said they want this and we want to attack them, thats plain stupid, didn't US do the same to the southern States, how do you differentiate colonisation and reunification? The difference c is this, one is a former incorporated territory, the other is a foreigh territory. So don't give me the victim agressor argument again....
 
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The civil war had never ended genius. Its just a truce now, whereby investment and trade can still go on. A peace treaty can only be signed when the whole country is reunified. So when you said they want this and we want to attack them, thats plain stupid, didn't US do the same to the southern States, how do you differentiate colonisation and reunification? The difference c is this, one is a former incorporated territory, the other is a foreigh territory. So don't give me the victim agressor argument again....
The U.S. didn't pause the war for 70 years! Foreign territory my beep. Chinese people retreated there and built a country. It's been 70 years,they've moved on with their lives,you have moved on with your lives. You have a massive country and population. You don't need Taiwan nor its population to add to yours.
But if you insist on the civil war,well then what can one say? You want war. Simple as that.
 
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Are you honestly going to use the example of when the PLA inflicted the longest retreat in US military history on America as an example? And do you think a PRC invasion of Taiwan is going to be comparable to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait?

For the record, I believe the US would defend Taiwan. The thing is, you'll just get your a*s whipped. It won't be a 20 year slog like in Afghanistan either - mercifully for you, whatever's left of your navy and air force after the initial 30 minutes of Rocket Force barrages will be deleted in a week.

Longest retreat? If I remember correctly, you lost Seoul when you pushed the U.S. forces back. So what happened from that longest retreat?
Are you honestly going to use the example of when the PLA inflicted the longest retreat in US military history on America as an example? And do you think a PRC invasion of Taiwan is going to be comparable to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait?

For the record, I believe the US would defend Taiwan. The thing is, you'll just get your a*s whipped. It won't be a 20 year slog like in Afghanistan either - mercifully for you, whatever's left of your navy and air force after the initial 30 minutes of Rocket Force barrages will be deleted in a week.
Reminds me of Saddam when he talks about the Mother of All Battles or Vietnams. China should feel the same when they think they can use the same perspective with mother of all Afghanistans or Vietnam. History does repeat.
 
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Taiwan island will have 2 options:

Option 1: Surrender and accept CPC’s rule.

Option 2: Get bombed back to the Stone Age.


Once the Taiwan generals see the PLA’s overwhelming firepower and the utter hopelessness of fighting a suicidal war, they will choose option 1 within the first 24 hours. Taiwan separatists will flee or be killed.
 
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Longest retreat? If I remember correctly, you lost Seoul when you pushed the U.S. forces back. So what happened from that longest retreat?

Reminds me of Saddam when he talks about the Mother of All Battles or Vietnams. China should feel the same when they think they can use the same perspective with mother of all Afghanistans or Vietnam. History does repeat.
Is this what passes for intimidation with Americans? Comparing China to Iraq?:omghaha:
 
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Is this what passes for intimidation with Americans? Comparing China to Iraq?:omghaha:

well there is some truth in that statements.

Iraq today is nothing compared to Iraq in 80s and 90s. Economically, it had the ability to influence US economy through oil just like China does nowadays with manufacturing. Militarily, it used to have around 6000 tanks, largest air force in the middle east,relatively advanced ballistic missile force, aspirations for WMDs, kinda like China now (minus the navy).
 
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The surprise is in a first strike against their radar just like in Desert Storm using cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. The only warning they'll get is the 5-10 minutes of a ballistic missile flight... or nothing if they fail to detect low flying cruise missiles.
The greatest asset and strength of the US military is the NCO corps. And you have nothing comparable in substance.

When I was active duty, I learned from a chief an apt analogy of experience and it goes this way...

Experience is like a staircase. The more steps and the wider each step, the better the staircase to use. The wider the step, the more you can use your full leg and with better balance on your foot, and the best step is when you can put your whole foot on it. The more steps, the easier it is to climb. So gain as much experience as possible and document everything, including your failures.

The first problem for the PLA is that it has no comparable experience. We are not talking about Chinese troops in the Korean War or the Vietnam War. We are talking about Chinese experience in military affairs in general. None in the past 300 yrs. Gunpowder may have came from China, but the gun and the inevitable tactics changes came from the West. The airplane did not came from China. The submarine did not came from China. The tank did not came from China. Each of these few examples changed combat tactics irrevocably. Changes in tactics creates changes in strategies, which creates changes in global power balance. So to continue with the staircase analogy, the PLA version have step one, 100 yrs gap, then step two. This leads to the second problem.

The second problem for the PLA is if/when it tries to replicate the US military as how you think the PLA will do. That is like a 16 yrs old who just like his driver's license, we put him into an F1 racer, then put him against professionals. He does know how the different pedals works, maybe even using a manual transmission. But does he know how to shift by just listening to the engine rpm and change gears without using the clutch pedal? It is called 'slip shifting'. So far, the PLA have not create anything that is analogous to a no clutch transmission. It means the PLA know how to REPLICATE the shiny toys but lacks the operational insights on how to them use according to unique situations. And those insights came from experience that includes successes and failures.

When I told you about the standard four-ship formation and how the loss of one can negatively affect the mission, that is from experience. PLAAF pilots do not have the institutional memory on how to compensate for that. I often used the air war over Viet Nam as example. The US would field dozens of heavily laden fighter-bombers, but as soon as one of them got hit by a SAM or by MIG, the entire flight would jettison their bombs in order to survive. How US pilots evolved from that? You can guess. But you better believe it that PLAAF pilots are just as human as US pilots in their desire for self preservation.

The third problem for the PLA is: Does it know that the Taiwanese defense is unlike the Iraqi defense? Back in Desert Storm, no one helped the Iraqi on how to prepare against the US, largely because no one understood the technological depth of the US military. Before DS, the world laughed at the F-117 because of the few failures the jet has. After DS, the world knew that something worse (for US adversaries) is coming when the US retires the F-117. But that sobering thought came too late for Iraq. The PLA have nothing comparable and the US will advises Taiwan on the PLA's full technical capabilities. If the UK advised Iraq, the world would see a different Desert Storm outcome.

Taiwan is not a technological peer. They don't have AESA equipped destroyers with VLS, modern subs, a global satellite system, AESA equipped AWACs, a global satellite constellation, etc. They have no means of even touching PLAN destroyers or subs launching cruise missiles at their early warning radars and fixed air defenses.
Yes, Taiwan is a technology peer. The same way that Chinese auto companies are US peers. The same way that US auto companies are peers to Rolls Royce or Ferrari. The differences in builds are from demographics and price points, not because GM do not know how make a Ghost equivalent. Same for those AESA radar and other technologies. In combat, a single shot rifle is just as deadly as the machine gun.

The fourth problem for the PLA is that as far as PLAN ships goes, Taiwan can field a picket line of subs whose main job is to watch and communicate real time the positions of PLAN ships, even if the PLAN ships are moving, and Taiwanese artillery can make predictive algorithm for those PLAN ships. Just like the air force version, all Taiwanese defense has to do is impose a 1/4, more likely 1/3, casualty rates and China can kiss the amphibious invasion 再见.

Over Serbia, NATO conducted an 80-day air campaign and even that was barely enough to compel negotiations.

The fifth problem for the PLA is that unlike Serbia where NATO countries were not economically affected by the war, China WILL be economically affected by a China-Taiwan war, so does the PLA have enough munition for less than 80 days and be powerful enough to compel submission? Not likely given the third problem above. The word 'munition' includes carriers of munitions, like fighter-bombers or bombers. Taiwanese defense WILL be successful in hitting some of the PLA fuel and munition depots on the mainland. All it need it 1/4 success rate. Then there is the Concealment, Camouflage, and Deception (CCD) regime. The PLA knows it has to contend with CCD by Taiwanese defense which will cost the PLA time to verify if the target is valid, and wasted munitions because the deception was successful. Verification requires time and human presence, preferably on-site presence, not just via satellite. On-site could mean boots on the ground or fast recon air. But either way, time is needed. So the longer the PLA has to conduct the war, the greater the economic damages to China.

The sixth problem for the PLA is the uncertainty of air superiority over Taiwan.

KCMzQBn.jpg


Take the runway, for example. In peacetime, the minimum requirement for a fighter-bomber is 5,000 ft by 50 ft. That is the minimum operational strip (MOS). For heavier platforms, there will be higher MOS-es. But as the US, EU, and ROCAF air forces demonstrated, we can get by with 4,000 ft by 30 ft, in other words, we can and have used the highways. As long as Taiwanese defense can inflict a 1/4 casualty rate on any PLA attack method, the ROCAF can survive and conduct counter air operations. The ROCAF do not have face the PLAAF on a 1-1 engagement basis. ROCAF fighter-bombers, or missiles of any type, just have to harass mainland PLA resources, like those fuel/ammo depots, to prolong the war, and the longer the war, the greater the resolve of the Taiwanese citizenry, and the greater the odds of US military involvement. Air superiority over Taiwan is not guaranteed and the PLA knows it. Taiwan know the window for the amphibious fleet launch is small: less than the 80-days over Serbia. And if the ROCAF survives beyond the 30-days mark, Taiwan will survive long enough to see China abandon the invasion.

And this is just a high level explanation of the problems the PLA must deal with BEFORE the invasion fleet is launched.
 
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The US will do nothing militarily there will be western sanctions. And the heavy price China will pay in military losses in invading an island. Unless China adopts the Russian Crimea playbook of first creating unrest and destabilizing Taiwan. Invasion of Taiwan is bad for business everyone knows it except wolf warriors maybe..China isn’t going to destroy Taiwan’s economy just to gain political control over the island.
China-America trade war or called sanction is still continuous. If the America has the power, the America can declare diplomatic cut down with China when we take Taiwan province.
To avoid destroying Taiwan province economy, we prepare and practise decapitation strike, yes, peaceful unification is the best way however, we have many choices.
By the way, when some Taiwanese want to go to America, please organize better, I don't want to see my compatriot drop off C130 undercarriages.
 
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Comparing Taiwan to Afghanistan is like comparing China to Taliban.
There is no apetite for war in USA
Just like USA had to withdraw from afgh, iraq and just like USA did nothing for pakistan in 1971 and will do nothing for vietnam if china attacks or south korea

Japan may be a different story but that may change as well
China-America trade war or called sanction is still continuous. If the America has the power, the America can declare diplomatic cut down with China when we take Taiwan province.
To avoid destroying Taiwan province economy, we prepare and practise decapitation strike, yes, peaceful unification is the best way however, we have many choices.
By the way, when some Taiwanese want to go to America, please organize better, I don't want to see my compatriot drop off C130 undercarriages.
Lets make it simple
USA will not intervenue in taiwan or korea again
 
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