The case against Hafiz Saeed

[Hulk]

He is the US ambassador to India. Of course he will pander to Indian sensibilities. What did you expect him to say, "Forget about it" ???


Times of India.

Correct, i agree with you, US people in India will tell something that suits in India and same thing they will do in Pakistan. I do not give value to these statements.

 

[Hulk]

What kind of person it will be who can plan to fire at kids and women and innocent people. I am yet to understand it, I cannot even hit family members of an enemy even. How such people are born.
You know if we keep on doing this to each other, this region will become so insecure nobody will come here, and we do not need to find hell then. It will be right where we are living. May good give strength to family of every person who lost life to terrorist. IMO the most coward people who plan these stuff, irrespective of country.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

OK - since we keep returning to the same topic, I combined all the Hafiz Saeed threads (related to arresting and prosecuting him) in this thread.

Please post new developments related to this issue here.

 

[Spring Onion]

OK - since we keep returning to the same topic, I combined all the Hafiz Saeed threads (related to arresting and prosecuting him) in this thread.

Please post new developments related to this issue here.

Thanks otherwise i was fed up of new threads even if Hafiz gets a cold

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Stick to the topic - Hafiz Saeed, the evidence against him and his arrest and prosecution, or the lack thereof, and the reasons behind them.

No more flames please.

 

[Hulk]

A lot of people here in Pakistan as asking same question where is the evidence and India did not provide any evidence etc. I want to point out few things here.
Lets say case1 crime committed and trail happens in same country
Case 2) crime committed outside of country(India) and trail happens in country(Pak). Now here is what makes it difficult.
In case 2 if government is cooperative all it needs is a link and it does all investigation on its own. example if a crime happens in USA and they record a conversation happening in UK. All they need to do is give the tape and number and UK govt will find out the rest.
In case 2 if government is not cooperative(Pakistan) it will try to reject all evidences. A statement of Kasab who is Pakistani is not enough etc.
All the evidence provided in one country can be trashed in other country, if intention is that. I will also like to see opposite some time when it is vice verse and will see how much evidence Pakistan can throw, I bet they will realize how difficult it is. (I do not want it to happen though). The same people here in this forum will say hey there is so much evidence he was talking on Phone to India, even weak evidence like they were not circumcised is big enough to prove they are RAW agents. I have seen it in this forum itself.
What does Pakistan expects as evidence, do you think if Saeed is really involved, will we be able to get a video recording of what he did?

There is enough information given to Government of Pakistan and its up to there government to investigate and bring people to Justice, the reason Pakistan government has to investigate is because criminals are located in Pakistan and India cannot investigate.

Now I know it is not going to end anywhere, since both countries does not help each other. I just wanted to bring to your notice the difficulties of finding evidence in case 2.

One last thing can a Pakistani give me an example of what can be said as evidence in this case, I bet you, I will be able to reject everything.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In case 2 if government is not cooperative(Pakistan) it will try to reject all evidences. A statement of Kasab who is Pakistani is not enough etc.

In what court is the statement of one man vs another enough to conclusively prove guilt?
kasab said he did and Saeed says he did not - so is the judge supposed to flip a coin and decide who to believe? From the publicly available evidence per Chidambram (Indian Home minister) there is no direct link between the Mumbai attacks and Saeed - just the statements by Kasab that Saeed allegedly visited the trainees.

All the evidence provided in one country can be trashed in other country, if intention is that. I will also like to see opposite some time when it is vice verse and will see how much evidence Pakistan can throw, I bet they will realize how difficult it is. (I do not want it to happen though). The same people here in this forum will say hey there is so much evidence he was talking on Phone to India, even weak evidence like they were not circumcised is big enough to prove they are RAW agents. I have seen it in this forum itself.
What does Pakistan expects as evidence, do you think if Saeed is really involved, will we be able to get a video recording of what he did?

The other five accused, including the original masterminds Lakhvi and Shah are still under arrest and their cases are going along, mainly because there is direct evidence against them - phone calls, voice recordings etc. and Pakistan has acknowledged that the evidence against them is good - so I disagree with your argument that Pakistan is merely pooh poohing any and all evidence provided by India - so far the evidence provided against Saeed is no where near to as conclusive as the evidence provided against Shah and Lakhvi.

There is enough information given to Government of Pakistan and its up to there government to investigate and bring people to Justice, the reason Pakistan government has to investigate is because criminals are located in Pakistan and India cannot investigate.

Now I know it is not going to end anywhere, since both countries does not help each other. I just wanted to bring to your notice the difficulties of finding evidence in case 2.

One last thing can a Pakistani give me an example of what can be said as evidence in this case, I bet you, I will be able to reject everything.

You are assuming there is enough evidence, perhaps the reality is that there is not enough evidence and the Indian government is merely attempting to use the Mumbai attacks as a pretext to get the former head of the LeT prosecuted by Pakistan via diplomatic pressure etc.

As to your last question - I do not knwo what kind of evidence India has in 'secret', but merely transcripts of one individual claiming that Saeed visited XYZ location and talked to him does not qualify as damning - it is essentially Kasab's word against Saeed's, and any good lawyer will work the torture angle and raise India's occupation and abuses in IHK to make the point that a confession obtained from a Pakistani insurgent/militant under Indian arrest should be thrown out.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Pak files 2 cases against Hafiz Saeed: Report​

17 September 2009,

FAISALABAD: The Pakistani authorities have filed two separate cases against Hafiz Saeed, the alleged mastermind of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks and chief of the banned Jamaat-Ud-Dawa group, a media report said on Thursday.

The cases were filed in two police stations in Faisalabad on the basis of sermons Saeed made recently, expressing his grave concerns over the stand by India, Israel and the US on Pakistan's nuclear assets.

He also expressed concern over the Pakistani government's change in Kashmir policy during his sermons at iftar parties Aug 26 and 27 in Faisalabad.

Hafiz Saeed has also been indicted on "charges of appealing for jihad fund" despite a strict ban on such appeals, the Online news agency reported.

Over 170 people, including 26 foreigners, were killed in the Nov 26-29, 2008 Mumbai attacks.

In December 2008, Saeed was brought under house arrest after banning the Jamaat-Ud-Dawa by the Pakistani authorities. However, in June this year a Pakistani court released him.

Meanwhile, India accused Pakistan of blocking the inquiry into the 26/11 Mumbai attacks and safeguarding Saeed.

"They (Pakistan) have a vested interest in safeguarding Hafiz Saeed. We have no doubt that Saeed is the brain behind the 26/11 attacks and have evidence to prove it," Indian external affairs minister S M Krishna told a TV news channel in an interview recently.

Pak files 2 cases against Hafiz Saeed: Report - Pakistan - World - NEWS - The Times of India

------------------------------​

We will arrest Hafiz Saeed, claim Pak cops​

Sep 18, 2009

Lahore: Pakistani police plan to arrest hardline cleric Hafiz Saeed, also accused by India in the Mumbai terror attacks, on charges of raising funds for the terrorist group Lashkar e Toiba, a senior officer said on Friday.

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed has always claimed that his Jamaat-ud-Dawa is a charity that helps victims of natural disasters and the poor.

Police officer Mohammed Tahir said on Friday that two criminal cases had been filed against Saeed because he illegally held a public gathering and raised funds for Jamaat-ud-Dawa in the city of Faisalabad in Punjab province last month.

"We will definitely arrest him," said Tahir, without saying when.

A spokesman for Saeed said he had yet to be arrested and that he planned to consult with lawyers.

Pakistan arrested Saeed in December after India provided a dossier of evidence in a rare sharing of intelligence. But in June, a Pakistani court freed Saeed from house arrest, saying there was not enough evidence to hold him.

India has maintained he played a role in the attacks and has called on Pakistan to arrest him.

We will arrest Hafiz Saeed, claim Pak cops - Express India

-------------------------------

Zardari promises action against Saeed​

Under pressure from the US, Pakistan today finally registered two FIRs against the alleged mastermind of 26/11 Mumbai terror attack - Hafiz Saeed and promised action against Saeed. "We'll take action against Hafiz Saeed," Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari said in response to a question from TIMES NOW's Sr Editor Srinjoy Choudhury on the FIRs against Saeed.

Pakistani police have also said that they would definitely arrest Saeed, though not in connection with the Mumbai carnage. The JuD chief has been booked under the Anti-Terrorism Act for allegedly making anti-state speeches.

Reacting to the development, External Affairs Minister has said that India will not be satisfied until the FIR is not linked to 26/11. For now, Saeed continues to be a free man as the police say they can't arrest him till they get a go-ahead from senior authorities.

Watch Video of President Zardari's press coference​

 

[Hulk]

In what court is the statement of one man vs another enough to conclusively prove guilt?
kasab said he did and Saeed says he did not - so is the judge supposed to flip a coin and decide who to believe? From the publicly available evidence per Chidambram (Indian Home minister) there is no direct link between the Mumbai attacks and Saeed - just the statements by Kasab that Saeed allegedly visited the trainees.

Agreed thats not enough, I do not know details of evidence.

The other five accused, including the original masterminds Lakhvi and Shah are still under arrest and their cases are going along, mainly because there is direct evidence against them - phone calls, voice recordings etc. and Pakistan has acknowledged that the evidence against them is good - so I disagree with your argument that Pakistan is merely pooh poohing any and all evidence provided by India - so far the evidence provided against Saeed is no where near to as conclusive as the evidence provided against Shah and Lakhvi.

They have been arrested is good thing, I heard the trail has not started. If they gets prosecuted then it will be a good gesture by Pakistan to get things to Normal. I will be the person to appreciate, someone has to do a beginning.

As to your last question - I do not knwo what kind of evidence India has in 'secret', but merely transcripts of one individual claiming that Saeed visited XYZ location and talked to him does not qualify as damning - it is essentially Kasab's word against Saeed's, and any good lawyer will work the torture angle and raise India's occupation and abuses in IHK to make the point that a confession obtained from a Pakistani insurgent/militant under Indian arrest should be thrown out.

AM my point here is, it is not easy to provide evidence in such cases, people are very well trained to know, how to execute. There is certain amount of personal judgment involved.

At the end, I am happy to the way you replied. Positive and to the point.

 

[warlock21]

On this Forum most of the pakistani members are saying tht Kasab is Indian not pakistan...... to the extent tht such heinous act is commited by Indian Agencies against its own ppl( only pakistani can say this..)... and also tht the evidence provided by Indian Govt. is not enough.....

I want to ask u ppl tht if u ppl are right then why ur own Govt. is banning and House arresting such social workers and devoted Islamic clerics..... and why on earth only pakistani saying this.. why not rest of the world.

 

[Skeptic]

Why does India want Pakistan’s Hafiz Saeed?

Hafiz Saeed, the founder of the militant Islamist Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), and now the head of an Islamist `charitable' organisation called the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), is in the eye of a storm. India wants him, the US deeply suspect him, but Pakistan deals with him with kid's gloves. But why does India want Hafiz Saeed?

The sole bone of contention between India and Pakistan on bringing the perpetrators of the 26/11 terror attack on Mumbai has been the burly and bearded 59-year old Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, the head of the Islamist charitable outfit called the Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD). While India says that he was the mastermind behind the attack on Mumbai, Pakistan says there is no credible proof against him. Both are right, because they are dealing with a clever and, at most times, a foxy man who knows either how to cover his tracks or just vanish from a trouble spot.

India wants him because New Delhi feels that it was Hafiz Saeed who was the brain and purse behind the Mumbai attack. India has provided the following proof to Pakistan:

It was Hafeez Saeed (HS) who gave the final signal for the highly motivated and indoctrinated team of terrorists that left Karachi via the sea to attack Mumbai.

HS is said to have visited the camps in Pakistan where terrorists were being trained for their attack on Mumbai.

HS had given fiery anti-India speeches to the operatives, motivating them to attack, kill and die for their religion and fellow beings.

Now all this is based on the testimony and confessions of Ajmal Kasaab, the lone terrorist who was nabbed after the Mumbai attack.

But Pakistan wants hard proof for all the allegations against HS, not just the testimony of Kasaab, which, they say is no evidence against Hafiz. Islamabad's stand is that without hard proof, the case against HS will not stand in a court of law. And Pakistan knows pretty well that India cannot provide the hard, legally binding evidence. And therein lies the conundrum - there is enough circumstantial proof, but not hard evidence. Remember, HS is a man who does not leave behind any tracks. The others involved in the attack on Mumbai had left behind tell-tale evidence - mainly instructions that were given on satellite phones. HS did not leave behind his voice on a satellite phone. He was a clever and cunning backroom operator who remotely pressed the button and vanished.
But the circumstantial evidence against HS is a such a large pile-up that US has been forced to arm-twist Pakistan to act. This is why Pakistan wants to arrest HS on charges of delivering anti-State speeches, not for the Mumbai attack. This way Islamabad will be pleasing the bosses in Washington, but denying New Delhi the satisfaction of seeing the arrest as a vindication of the November attack on Mumbai.

But even in the present case against HS, it is to be noted that the charges are extremely weak and flimsy and in all probability he will again walk free, like he has done many times before. And that is what Pakistan wants because it will take the stand that it was sincere in arresting HS, but the court freed him.

In short, the arrest of HS will end up in another drama and the JuD chief will have the last laugh.

Apart from pinning him for the attack on Mumbai, India is keen on getting HS because he is the chief organiser of funds for major terrorist activities. On paper the JuD is an Islamist charitable organisation working for victims of earthquake and violence, but it is known to siphon off funds for terror activities. Hence, if HS is arrested, the funding for terror activities will end, feels India.

Without funds, organisations like the LeT would be toothless. Major arms suppliers are known to trade arms for hard cash from frontal organisations of the JuD. But here again, HS has left behind no proof.
Both New Delhi and Washington feel that unless the funding supply lines are snapped, terror attacks against India can never be contained. The behind-the-scene signatures of the JuD were evident in every attack against India - from attack on Parliament to the Mumbai train bombings.

Pakistan, on the other hand, knows that any harsh measure against HS would only result in spawning more home-grown terror outfits that may target the local governments as well. It will also result in playing into the hands of fundamentalists. With the borders against Afghanistan and the troubled Swat region already on the boil with the Taliban, Islamabad can hardly afford to motivate other terror outfits that see HS and the JuD as a leader and saviour.

India has accused the JuD and Hafiz Saeed of being virtually interchangeable with Lashkar-e-Taiba. India's stand is that the close links between the organistions, as well as the 2,500 offices and 11 seminaries that Jamaat-ud-Dawa maintains in Pakistan, "are of immediate concern with regard to their efforts to mobilize and orchestrate terrorist activities."

But HS has gone on record saying "no Lashkar-e-Taiba man is in Jamaat-ud-Dawa and I have never been a chief of Lashkar-e-Taiba." (Interview to Geo TV in December 2008).

This is not the first time that HS is either being detained or arrested.

He was detained on December 21, 2001 in connection with India' accusations of his involvement with the December 13, 2001 attack on the Lok Sabha. He was held until March 31, 2002, arrested again on May 15, and was placed under house arrest on October 31 of the same year. India's stand was that it was HS who funded the attack. He was let off later.

He was again arrested on Aug 9, 2006 by the provincial government of Punjab in Pakistan for the July 11, 2006 Mumbai train bombings. He was released on August 28, 2006 after a Lahore High Court found no substantial evidence against him.

He was arrested again on the same day by the provincial government and was kept in the Canal Rest House in Sheikhupura. He was finally released after the Lahore High Court order on October 17, 2006. Again, no proof.
On December 11, 2008 Hafiz Saeed was placed under house arrest when the United Nations declared Jamaat-ud-Dawa to be an LeT front. He was held under house arrest under the Maintenance of Public Order law, which allows authorities to detain temporarily individuals deemed likely to create disorder. But he was released in June 2009 when the Lahore High Court again found no evidence and took the stand that the UN declaration is no law on the sovereign soil of Pakistan.

On August 25, 2009 Interpol issued a Red Corner Notice against Hafiz Saeed, along with Zaki ur Rehman Lakhvi, in response to Indian requests for his extradition

Now a brief sketch on Hafiz Saeed:

Apart from heading the JuD, the 1950 born Hafiz Saeed is a known India hater, mainly because he lost 36 of his family members during the partition time. He was not born when the partition took place, but he was told of the tales of horror that took place as his relatives migrated from Shimla to Lahore.

HS first shot into prominence when General Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq appointed Saeed to the Council on Islamic Ideology, and he later served as an Islamic Studies teacher at the University of Engineering and Technology (Lahore).

He was sent to Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s by the university for higher studies where he reportedly met Saudi Sheikhs who were taking part in the Afghan jihad.
In 1987 Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, along with Abdullah Azzam, founded Markaz Dawa-Wal-Irshad, a group with roots in the Jamait Ahl-e-Hadis.

This organisation spawned the jihadist group Lashkar-e-Taiba in 1990, with the help of Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence officers. It was based in Pakistan before 9/11 and was transferred to Kashmir after. Lashkar's primary target is the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir although Saeed has also spoken of "liberating" Hyderabad State and Junagadh from Indian rule.

 

[hembo]

Pak's ambivalence in cracking down on Saeed clear : NYT
Sat, Sep 19 03:35 PM

New York, Sep.19 (ANI) : Pakistani authorities may have filed cases against Lashkar -e-Taiba (LeT) chief Hafeez Mohammad Saeed, the alleged mastermind of the November 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, but Islamabad's actions are being considered as a mere 'hogwash'.

The New York Times, while reporting the actions taken against Saeed, said the ambivalence of Pakistani authorities in cracking down on the LeT's fouder leader was clear.

The newspaper highlighted that the Pakistan government has never been serious regarding putting a check on Saeed and his covert terror activities being run under the LeT's charity organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD).

"Even after he was placed under house arrest in December, the government took steps to soften the blow, allowing him, for instance, to hold a defiant news conference before his confinement began," it said.

While the Pakistan government has been maintaining that it is seriously carrying out the probe regarding the 26/11 massacre, and tried to show the same to the international community especially the US by booking Saeed under the anti-terrorism act, its 'bluff' was laid bare when Saeed's lawyer disclosed that the case registered against his client were 'very weak'.

"I have gone through both the FIRs against Saeed thoroughly. The charges against my client are very weak. He has expressed his views like any other Pakistani," Saeed's lawyer AK Dongar told a private television channel.

Pakistani authorities also revealed that they have not received any instructions for arresting Saeed despite the registration of two cases against him. (ANI)

 

[ironman]

Pakistan and Hafiz Saeed ​

Monday, Sep 21, 2009

Two interesting developments in Pakistan, possibly linked, offer some hope that sections of that country’s leadership understand India’s and the world’s concerns about Hafiz Saeed and may want to address them. He is the leader of the Jamat-ud-Dawa, a group that fronts for the Lashkar-e-Taiba. In the nationalist mythology of Pakistan, LeT is a defunct group that ceased to exist after it was banned in 2002; JuD is a charity organisation that educates childr en and offers free health services; and Hafiz Saeed is a harmless preacher-teacher-philanthropist. Much of this mythology was derived from the Pakistan security establishment’s patronage of Mr. Saeed and LeT for the jihad in Kashmir. Forced by the United States to act against LeT and other jihadi organisations after 9/11, General Pervez Musharraf reluctantly banned the group in 2002. But Hafiz Saeed’s re-emergence as the leader of JuD indicated that he continued to enjoy some state indulgence. In recent days, a few red lines around him have been breached. First, on September 16, police in the Punjab province registered two cases against him in Faisalabad for glorifying and soliciting funds for jihad, unconnected to the Mumbai attacks. Since 2002, he has been a veteran of house arrests, including after the Mumbai attacks. But this is the first time Pakistan’s Anti-Terrorism Act has been used against him. At the risk of being accused of bending to Indian pressure, Interior Minister Rehman Malik even announced that Mr. Saeed was under investigation for the 26/11 attacks.

From this there is no need to jump to the conclusion that justice is at last being done. Going by the reported contents of the two First Information Reports, the case against Mr. Saeed seems weak. He has not been arrested yet. The invoked section of the law is meant for organisations proscribed under the terrorism Act, and it is not clear if JuD has been banned at all. The question is whether the FIRs and the announcement that Mr. Saeed is under investigation also for his alleged role in the Mumbai attacks will go any further. Ahead of the Sharm-el-Sheikh summit, the Pakistan government went to the Supreme Court against the Lahore High Court’s order releasing the JuD leader from house arrest. But nothing came of it. Similarly, the recent actions against Mr. Saeed have come just before the foreign secretaries and foreign ministers of India and Pakistan are to meet on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York. But despite the doubts, and given the known constraints on Pakistan’s elected leadership when it comes to touching some holy cows, it would be premature to dismiss these small steps as meaningless. New Delhi’s cautious welcome was the right response.

 

[hembo]

Pak needs to ask itself why so little visible effort made to nab Mumbai culprits: Editorial
Thu, Sep 24 02:20 PM

Islamabad, Sep.24 (ANI): An editorial in one of the leading English dailies of Pakistan has raised questions over the apparent protection being provided to the banned terror outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), the group which India says was behind the November 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, inside the country.

The editorial also pointed out that despite the Pakistan government's claims that there is not enough evidence against LeT's founder leader Hafiz Mohammad Saeed to prove that he masterminded the 26/11 carnage, many Pakistanis are unconvinced of the view that both LeT and Saeed are entirely innocent.

"The question is why it has apparently been granted protection and allowed to revive itself despite being banned. We must act against militancy and this action cannot be selective," The News editorial said.

It added that Islamabad should act against the extremists and terror groups such as LeT, not for India, rather than for its own sake.

"For our own sake rather than that of the Indians, Pakistan needs to ask itself why there has been so little visible effort to go after those involved in Mumbai," it concluded. (ANI)

 

[fhassan]

LeT did not do it.

They are doing some good projects in pakistan, mainly charity.

They even opened their doors to the world media upon invitation after the Mumbai inside job - what Terror group would do that?