The brutal reality of Tibet 2008

[Flintlock]

Chinese is a primitive language that makes do with pictorial symbols rather than an alphabet.

Least you can do is spare the Tibetans the pain of giving up their advanced language for a more primitive one.

 

[Flintlock]

AN,

I do not hate Western culture. Instead, I love many aspects of that, though not all. And I am following western way of analyzing (dialectics) in making my statements you quoted. Frankly, without the existence of Western culture, many truth and marvels of the nature and humanity wouldn’t be discovered, at least not that soon. But, I don’t think you would argue much that that archievments come with damages, sometimes it is even bloody and genocidal.

If you can sense more deeply, I admire western styled square buildings that have been widely accepted worldwide due to their many advantages. They are definitely far better than the adobe of Pueblo or the teepees of Sioux. Western suits are also easier to put on and off with shinny and tidy look… There are too many to enumerate.

However, when I admire Western achievements, by knowing Western history, I also can’t help admiring Chinese achievements, by knowing Chinese history. I consider myself to be a lucky person to know the two side stories, or rather a sad person.

There are too many topics to talk. Per “cultural genocide”, do you think that article's analysis is flawed, if not biased against and unfair towards China?

If English is your mother tongue, I bet you wouldn’t argue much that genocide is “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.”? And perhaps, “cultural genocide” can be extended to mean “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a culture.”?

How is Tibetan culture being deliberately and systematically exterminated? Does that mean that Tibetan culture can be revived when it reverts to pre-1950, where illiteracy was 90+% and living slaves’ bones, skulls and skins could be asked for at religious Lords’ will?

If one argues that their religious believers are diminishing, Languages are not spoken. (note that Tibetan populations are actually increasing), can the other argue that those of influx are westernized Han Chinese, and they bring to Tibet more Western cultures than Chinese ones: ideas of doing high tech business, building western styled edifices, the way of life, and the philosophy of market competition?

Parliament debate should be regarded as the highest form of cultural manifesto, yet Indians have to resort to a foreign language.

As a matter of fact, the prevalence of Western ideas brings damages to Chinese traditional culture as well.

As I said, be rational and practical. If you understand what I meant: if cultural genocide were of that definition, western culture would be the culprit.

There is always a price to pay to develop. But if not to develop, perhaps it will be more costly. What we should do is to control the collateral damage, not simply point figures or bring in confrontations, which is easy and childish but not constuctive.

Gpit, sorry to say, but you don't seem to have any understanding on how societies behave and react to influences.

The biggest folly of the Communist ideology is that it refuses to see humans as humans, but tries to use cold logic where cold logic has the least effect.

 

[gpit]

Chinese is a primitive language that makes do with pictorial symbols rather than an alphabet.

...

You made a point, Sir.

Rank Country IQ estimate language
1 Hong Kong 107 Chinese
2 South Korea 106 influenced by Chinese
3 Japan 105 influenced by Chinese
4 Taiwan 104 Chinese
5 Singapor 103 Chinese and others
6 Austria 102
7 Germany 102
8 Italy 102
9 Netherlands 102
10 Sweden 101
11 Switzerland 101
12 Belgium 100
13 China (PRC)100 Chinese
.
.
.
60 India 82

IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Flintlock]

You made a point, Sir.

Rank Country IQ estimate language
1 Hong Kong 107 Chinese
2 South Korea 106 influenced by Chinese
3 Japan 105 influenced by Chinese
4 Taiwan 104 Chinese
5 Singapor 103 Chinese and others
6 Austria 102
7 Germany 102
8 Italy 102
9 Netherlands 102
10 Sweden 101
11 Switzerland 101
12 Belgium 100
13 China (PRC)100 Chinese
.
.
.
60 India 82

IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry I didn't get you. What does a list of (supposedly accurate) average IQ scores have to do with the Chinese and Tibetan languages?

P.S. I am not resorting to slander here. Chinese is indeed a primitive language in comparison to the Tibetan one.

That's besides the point. My main argument is that forcing an alien and more primitive language down the throats of Tibetans is not going down well with them.

 

[vish]

You made a point, Sir.

Rank Country IQ estimate language
1 Hong Kong 107 Chinese
2 South Korea 106 influenced by Chinese
3 Japan 105 influenced by Chinese
4 Taiwan 104 Chinese
5 Singapor 103 Chinese and others
6 Austria 102
7 Germany 102
8 Italy 102
9 Netherlands 102
10 Sweden 101
11 Switzerland 101
12 Belgium 100
13 China (PRC)100 Chinese
.
.
.
60 India 82

IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please go through the criticism section of the Wiki page.

 

[gpit]

Gpit, sorry to say, but you don't seem to have any understanding on how societies behave and react to influences.

The biggest folly of the Communist ideology is that it refuses to see humans as humans, but tries to use cold logic where cold logic has the least effect.

Human rights violations are visible in China. It should be condemned. So are there the violations in many democratic countries, but they are more visible in China. When I browsed Chinese forums, a good question was posed by many Chinese: though both violates human rights, why NO western media criticize the killing by Indian policemen of the protesters against electricity shortage, but more on the Tibet riots, even with fake materials?

Could you, or anybody, please explain why?

There is no evidence supporting that being democratic, human beings will AUTOMATICALLY be treated as human, especially in developing countries.

Would you mind telling us how CPC doctrine doesn’t treat humans as humans, but non-communist colonists treated American Indian humans as humans?

 

[vish]

Human rights violations are visible in China. It should be condemned. So are there the violations in many democratic countries, but they are more visible in China. When I browsed Chinese forums, a good question was posed by many Chinese: though both violates human rights, why NO western media criticize the killing by Indian policemen of the protesters against electricity shortage, but more on the Tibet riots, even with fake materials?

Could you, or anybody, please explain why?

Those "protesters" were damaging public property and sooner or later, if they were not dispersed, the protesters would have turned into a mob. The police fired shots in the air to disperse them and consequently, the deaths of some "protesters."

The policemen did not kill the protesters; the protesters died in police firing.

Further, please don't compare this protest to what is happening in Tibet.

 

[Flintlock]

Human rights violations are visible in China. It should be condemned. So are there the violations in many democratic countries, but they are more visible in China. When I browsed Chinese forums, a good question was posed by many Chinese: though both violates human rights, why NO western media criticize the killing by Indian policemen of the protesters against electricity shortage, but more on the Tibet riots, even with fake materials?

I'll tell you why.

When these riots were happening, there were hundreds of video cameras on the ground filming and broadcasting the events in real time.
So, when the Indian police were forced to open fire on some of the protesters on order to prevent the policemen from being injured or killed, there was no doubt regarding this since nothing was being censored or hidden.

On the other hand, the Chinese regime has no accountability to anybody, it can kill as many people as it wants (and does), whenever it wants to, and nobody within the Chinese establishment dares to ask any questions about it.

How do you think the CPC manages to keep a country of `1.3 billion people running smoothly without any outlet for dissent? By an efficient system of thought and opinion control using a variety of means including censorship, intimidation, propaganda and social engineering.

Would you mind telling us how CPC doctrine doesn’t treat humans as humans, but non-communist colonists treated American Indian humans as humans?

What do American colonists have to do with the topic? Don't bring up red-herrings unnecessarily.

 

[gpit]

...

What do American colonists have to do with the topic? Don't bring up red-herrings unnecessarily.

To counter your own:

...

The biggest folly of the Communist ideology is that it refuses to see humans as humans, but tries to use cold logic where cold logic has the least effect.

since the colonists were no Communists, yet with cold logic refusing to see humans as humans.

 

[gpit]

I'll tell you why.

When these riots were happening, there were hundreds of video cameras on the ground filming and broadcasting the events in real time.
So, when the Indian police were forced to open fire on some of the protesters on order to prevent the policemen from being injured or killed, there was no doubt regarding this since nothing was being censored or hidden.

On the other hand, the Chinese regime has no accountability to anybody, it can kill as many people as it wants (and does), whenever it wants to, and nobody within the Chinese establishment dares to ask any questions about it.

Are you telling me the Chinese government didn't release film records, or they released false records, as democratic Rediff, CNN, BBC and many others have marvelously done?

How do you think the CPC manages to keep a country of `1.3 billion people running smoothly without any outlet for dissent? By an efficient system of thought and opinion control using a variety of means including censorship, intimidation, propaganda and social engineering.

...

Without dissidents? Ha,ha…

It's pitiful, but is not your fault, since you guys are submerged in a sea of biased, even false media. Added to the pain is the fact that most of you are language-wise incapable to see by yourself what the Chinese are discussing on internet. I have a good reason to believe that Chinese democracy may probably grow out from the internet given 200million internet users there. Even CPC bosses are getting information from internet.

What you learnt only those incidents that someone was arrested for crossing the line. Frankly, probably not many countries will tolerate many of these. Even though they are detained or arrested, they still have rights to hire attorneys. Having said that, let’s be sure that Chinese legal system is not as matured, is sometimes corrupted, and is far from flawless.

Will democracy solve legal system corruption? I am in doubt by just looking at your courts where money can buy whatever and 20 percent of the higher judiciary was corrupt. India's judiciary is not a holy cow - upiasiaonline.com

I think the biggest means that CPC to run the country relatively smooth (the word I'm hesitating in use, since I don't see it is smooth at all) in recent decades is that CPC has delivered tangible good things to most of the people.

 

[Flintlock]

To counter your own:

We're talking about the Chinese regime, not 18th Century American history.
Sure, colonization of the Americas was catastrophic for the indegenous people.

How does that lessen the brutality of the CPC regime?

since the colonists were no Communists, yet with cold logic refusing to see humans as humans.

Hmmm....that's nice logic.

I never said that the communism is the only degrading ideology on the face of the planet.

Please stick to the topic perhaps, by telling me why you think that communists do have respect for human life and humanity.

Changing the topic does zilch to prove your point.

 

[Flintlock]

Are you telling me the Chinese government didn't release film records, or they released false records, as democratic Rediff, CNN, BBC and many others have marvelously done?

I'm saying that the Chinese government should not be "realeasing" any records, but allowing people to come for themselves and witness the proceedings without any interference or coercion.

Get my point?

I don't know why you keep repeating Rediff, CNN and BBC like some talisman.

Without dissidents? Ha,ha…

It's pitiful, but is not your fault, since you guys are submerged in a sea of biased, even false media. Added to the pain is the fact that most of you are language-wise incapable to see by yourself what the Chinese are discussing on internet. I have a good reason to believe that Chinese democracy may probably grow out from the internet given 200million internet users there. Even CPC bosses are getting information from internet.

Er...you are simply making allegations and stating your wishes and hopes. Nothing concrete in here.

What you learnt only those incidents that someone was arrested for crossing the line. Frankly, probably not many countries will tolerate many of these. Even though they are detained or arrested, they still have rights to hire attorneys. Having said that, let’s be sure that Chinese legal system is not as matured, is sometimes corrupted, and is far from flawless.

Well thank you for admitting that the Chinese legal system has flaws.

I'd go one step further and say that the Chinese legal system is designed to protect the State, and not the people.

Will democracy solve legal system corruption? I am in doubt by just looking at your courts where money can buy whatever and 20 percent of the higher judiciary was corrupt. India's judiciary is not a holy cow - upiasiaonline.com

Yes, India has massive problems with corruption at lower levels. However, our legal principles are quite sound, thank you very much.

However, we are straying from the topic, which is the situation in Tibet (and perhaps China), and not the one in India.

Attacking the Indian legal system does not somehow prove that the Chinese one is flawless.

I think the biggest means that CPC to run the country relatively smooth (the word I'm hesitating in use, since I don't see it is smooth at all) in recent decades is that CPC has delivered tangible good things to most of the people.

I agree with that. The CPC adopted a variety of means to ensure that it stayed in power, and one of those means was to dramatically raise the living standards of the Chinese people.

After the dramatic events of Tiananman Square in '89 the Chinese regime woke up to the possibility that its rule might be overthrown by democrats.
From then on, it underwent a massive reformation program and completely turned around its policy of isolation into one of engagement.

However, when the economic gains fail to keep things calm, rest assured, the CPC does not hesitate to get rid of anybody who dares to oppose its rule.

 

[gpit]

Sorry I didn't get you. What does a list of (supposedly accurate) average IQ scores have to do with the Chinese and Tibetan languages?

P.S. I am not resorting to slander here. Chinese is indeed a primitive language in comparison to the Tibetan one.

As a matter of fact Tibetan language and mandarine Chinese both belong to Sino-Tibetan language family. Please check this out Sino-Tibetan languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exerpts:

"A few scholars, most prominently Christopher Beckwith and Roy Andrew Miller, argue that Chinese is not related to Tibeto-Burman. They point to an absence of regular sound correspondences, an absence of reconstructable shared morphology,[1] and evidence that much shared lexical material has been borrowed from Chinese into Tibeto-Burman. In opposition to this view, scholars in favor of the Sino-Tibetan hypothesis such as W. South Coblin, Graham Thurgood, James Matisoff, and Gong Hwang-cherng have argued that there are regular correspondences in sounds as well as in grammar."

I'm not going to argue with you on how superior/inferior Chinese language is than Tibetan language. You have your opinion and Chinese language experts have theirs: They believe that the superiority of the language lies in the fact that it combines picture with the sound, and is the most succinct form to convey information.

Maybe you can provide some link to show how ridiculous the argument you quoted is.

That's besides the point. My main argument is that forcing an alien and more primitive language down the throats of Tibetans is not going down well with them.

Current Tibet situation is inherited from the history. Nobody today can alter the history. Chinese government, though not without flaw, spends a lot in protecting Tibetan heritage. However, if Tibet wants to grow with the rest of the country, Tibetans can't avoid using mandarin Chinese. Just like if China wants to grow with the world, it can't avoid learning English. And you can see from this forum, it is even more difficult for many Chinese to swallow alient English. Are you saying Chinese are not going to do well?

 

[gpit]

Sorry I didn't get you. What does a list of (supposedly accurate) average IQ scores have to do with the Chinese and Tibetan languages?

Why would people with higher IQ use an inferior language?

 

[Flintlock]

As a matter of fact Tibetan language and mandarine Chinese both belong to Sino-Tibetan language family. Please check this out Sino-Tibetan languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exerpts:

"A few scholars, most prominently Christopher Beckwith and Roy Andrew Miller, argue that Chinese is not related to Tibeto-Burman. They point to an absence of regular sound correspondences, an absence of reconstructable shared morphology,[1] and evidence that much shared lexical material has been borrowed from Chinese into Tibeto-Burman. In opposition to this view, scholars in favor of the Sino-Tibetan hypothesis such as W. South Coblin, Graham Thurgood, James Matisoff, and Gong Hwang-cherng have argued that there are regular correspondences in sounds as well as in grammar."

I'm not going to argue with you on how superior/inferior Chinese language is than Tibetan language. You have your opinion and Chinese language experts have theirs: They believe that the superiority of the language lies in the fact that it combines picture with the sound, and is the most succinct form to convey information.

Maybe you can provide some link to show how ridiculous the argument you quoted is.

Its a rather primitive thing to memorize a different "picture" for each word. It makes the language completely illogical and difficult to master.

Similar languages were used in several ancient civilizations including the Indus Valley Civilization and the Harappan civilization, which were replaced by the modern languages which use a phonetic alphabet.

Current Tibet situation is inherited from the history. Nobody today can alter the history. Chinese government, though not without flaw, spends a lot in protecting Tibetan heritage. However, if Tibet wants to grow with the rest of the country, Tibetans can't avoid using mandarin Chinese. Just like if China wants to grow with the world, it can't avoid learning English. And you can see from this forum, it is even more difficult for many Chinese to swallow alient English. Are you saying Chinese are not going to do well?

There is a vast difference between giving people the choice to learn Chinese, and colonizing their lands and forcing them to learn Chinese, give up their culture completely and convert to Chinese culture.

And please, we know the "brilliant" record of the CPC in preserving Tibetan heritage. Let us no go there.

Here are the facts: Tibet has been brutally colonized by the Chinese Communist regime.
Don't make it worse by drawing up weak comparisons with how some Chinese are learning English by choice to get better jobs or whatever.