The brutal reality of Tibet 2008

[maniac]

why it can't be economic migration? While it seems that China has somewhat higher income in average, but it does not mean they are rich. Even in richer provinces, there are lots of people living below poverty line, not to mention a relatively less developed region like Tibet. Economic well-being is quite likely to be one reason.
Even if they are richer than the Tibetans in India, they may not have that information.
Also since Dalai Lama is one of the two most influential schools of Tibentan Buddhism, it's quite possible for them to go to where their spiritual leader lives. This is a pure religious issue, has nothing to do with persecution or whatever.
Finally, you cannot deduce a macro effect from only one occurence, you need enough data so that you can prove the hypothesis that "there are more tibetans leaving China than entering China". Even if it is true, you still have to get enough evidence to prove that this outflow is due to persecution.

 

[gpit]

For a better life.

Aren't you suggesting that they expect a better life in India than in China? Why? China is supposed to be richer, so it can't be economic migration.

Hasn't some Indian pointed out that Tibet is much poorer than India?

In addition, A refugee is a person who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country" (according to all the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

BTW, I'm not denying "economic refugee" which also applies to Tibetans.

 

[Vinod2070]

Hasn't some Indian pointed out that Tibet is much poorer than India?

In addition, A refugee is a person who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country" (according to all the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

BTW, I'm not denying "economic refugee" which also applies to Tibetans.

And that is my point. If Tibet is poor, the Tibetans can go to mainland China where there should be more economic opportunities than in India. But that will be only true if they were truly Chinese AND there was no persecution.

 

[vish]

May be the reason why Tibetan refugees choose to come to India has something to do with the fact that human development is not merely concrete-super-structure-centric economic, it is political, social, religious, spiritual and cultural too.

 

[Always Neutral]

One thousand protesters unaccounted for in Tibet lock-down | Amnesty International

One thousand protesters unaccounted for in Tibet lock-down
20 June 2008

As the Olympic torch relay travels to Lhasa, Amnesty International urged the Chinese government to provide information about the over 1,000 people detained during the protests last March and called for free access to Tibet by independent observers.

The call came as Amnesty International published an update on the situation in Tibet since the outbreak of violence – looking at the continuing violent crackdown against protesters, the situation of those detained, including those reported to have been beaten and deprived of proper health care and adequate food, and the severe censorship facing journalists and Tibetans.

“There is very little information coming out of Tibet, but the information we have paints a dire picture of arbitrary detentions and abuse of detainees,” said Sam Zarifi, Asia-Pacific Director at Amnesty International.

“With the torch relay about to enter Tibetan areas, this should be an opportunity to shine some light on the situation there.”

Official reports only provide information on a small number of those who have been sentenced after questionable trials.

Foreign journalists are still blocked from entering Tibet. Limited reports that have come through friends and family members to the media and Tibetan organizations say police and security forces have confiscated mobile phones, computers and other communications equipment in hundreds of raids on monasteries, nunneries and private homes, physically preventing thousands from communication with the outside world.

Those who dare to find ways of sending information to foreign media or human rights organizations regarding protests and arrests, risk arrest and imprisonment.

“The complete lock-down in Tibet is allowing human rights abuses such as arbitrary detentions, ill treatment and severe censorship to go unreported and unpunished,” said Sam Zarifi.

“Hundreds of people languish in Chinese prisons for peacefully expressing their opinions, in appalling conditions and without their relatives even knowing where they are. The passing of the torch should allow journalists a chance to see the actual situation on the ground and promote the ‘Free and Open Olympics’ promised in the Beijing Olympic Action Plan.”

Chinese authorities have not only detained monks and nuns and other protesters, they have also targeted Tibetan artists who did not have any direct involvement in the on-going protests. What these figures had in common was involvement in efforts to preserve Tibetan culture. Jamyang Kyi, a well-known singer, TV presenter and producer, was arrested on 1 April from her work place at the Qinghai TV station and held incommunicado for at least one month before, it is believed, being placed under house arrest, only after paying a significant fee.

Background Information
Initial protests after March 10 turned violent and targeted ethnic Han Chinese individuals and businesses. But protesters, often led by monks and nuns, are believed to have been mainly peaceful since March 14, when the Dalai Lama exhorted demonstrators to avoid violence.

The Olympic torch relay is travelling through China under great scrutiny and with journalists highly controlled in areas such as the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. The original schedule for the torch relay travelling through Tibet has been changed and it is now reported to be on Saturday 21 June.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Why Indian refugees flee for Europe in thousands yearly?

Indians not only go to Europe, they go to the US as also to China.

But they do not flee nor are they shot by the Army when they go.

They obtain a passport, get a visa and then go to the airport and board a plane and off they go.

No one stops them.

Got the difference, my Tongzhi?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Gpits,

If you feel it is economic emigration that the Tibetan are doing, then why are they undertaking so many risks unlike the Indians and Pakistanis who just get their visas and take off?

And if it is economic emigration then the Chinese propaganda the life in Tibet is a Paradise is all humbug and that India or Nepal is a better place to live than China!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

why it can't be economic migration? While it seems that China has somewhat higher income in average, but it does not mean they are rich. Even in richer provinces, there are lots of people living below poverty line, not to mention a relatively less developed region like Tibet. Economic well-being is quite likely to be one reason.
Even if they are richer than the Tibetans in India, they may not have that information.
Also since Dalai Lama is one of the two most influential schools of Tibentan Buddhism, it's quite possible for them to go to where their spiritual leader lives. This is a pure religious issue, has nothing to do with persecution or whatever.
Finally, you cannot deduce a macro effect from only one occurence, you need enough data so that you can prove the hypothesis that "there are more tibetans leaving China than entering China". Even if it is true, you still have to get enough evidence to prove that this outflow is due to persecution.

It has nothing to do with spiritual solace.

It is all about cultural and spiritual destruction organised by the Hans, in the similar way they overcame the Manchus. The only problem is that today, people are more enlightened.

Tibet is a far better place to live in than before.

Yet, culture and religion cannot substitute for economic gains to such religious people as Tibetans.

If it were merely a religious issue, it did not matter if the Dalai Lama was in the Potala or in Dharamsala. Both are as remote to the average Tibetans!

therefore, your contention is as good as the Moon gives light!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Care to give a rebuttal to

Rivers of money not flowing to Tibetans

 

[gpit]

Indians not only go to Europe, they go to the US as also to China.

But they do not flee nor are they shot by the Army when they go.

They obtain a passport, get a visa and then go to the airport and board a plane and off they go.

No one stops them.

Got the difference, my Tongzhi?

Refugees don't flee!

Indian (and other countries’) refugees, upon arrival on airport, claim that they are religiously oppressed/force to marry whatever, and so on. Do they care passport after THE utilization?

 

[Always Neutral]

Refugees don't flee!

Indian (and other countries’) refugees, upon arrival on airport, claim that they are religiously oppressed/force to marry whatever, and so on. Do they care passport after THE utilization?

Dear Gpit,

As a Chinese living in the USA whats your view on the Ammnesty International report on Tibet.

Regards

 

[gpit]

Salim, and Others,

Though unprecedentedly great progress has been made since 1949, Tibet is still the least developed area in China due to its human-unfriendly environment and its residual of past religious autocracy.

A much richer great democratic India still has 40% illiteracy, if Tibet has 40% uneducated people, why should you guys be so surprised?

Perhaps you’re surprised that a backward Tibet is at par with democratic India in terms of education! You’ll be even more surprised, if your amnesia is not too severe to remember or your knowledge is not too shallow to learn, that under the great leadership of Dalai Lama, Tibet had 90+% illiteracy!

There are indeed a lot of Tibetans seek prosperities in the rest of China. Why you never see, or care to see, that fact?

For high tech jobs in Tibet, indeed Tibetans are in a disadvantage position when competing with the rest of people due to their educational level: old Tibetan tradition caused by the religious autocracy of Lama emphasizes the importance of next life. As the article said, they rather be poor than to have a job. They are free to do so, just as those in India who’d rather to dwell the cave.

Another factor is language. If I can’t speak English, only Mohawk language, do you guys expect me to find a decent position in USA? So is the case in China if one can’t master mandarin Chinese. Decent hotel job in Tibet needs more than mandarin: it needs English!

As a matter of fact, Chinese government imposes rules similar to US “affirmative actions” to require certain amount of minority employees in certain organizations.

There hasn’t been a flawless economic/political policy worldwide. So is the one in Tibet. What we do know is that Lama system doesn’t work in bring Tibet to modernization and prosperity, by comparing the past and now in Tibet.

Well, if your mentality insists that Tibet needs its old culture but deserves no modernity and prosperity, then no point to debate.

Gyaiqen Xudain believers say this: Dalai Lama "Your smile is charming, but your behavior is harming".

If you talk about cultural genocide, the biggest murderer is the Western culture: its squared buildings all over the world.; people wearing suits, drinking Coca, speaking English… In India, parliament debate has to be in English… I bet you there are more people in Lhasa wearing Western style clothes than Tibetan or Han Chinese ones, more Western types of buildings than any tibetan buildings!

Be rational.

 

[Always Neutral]

If you talk about cultural genocide, the biggest murderer is the Western culture: its squared buildings all over the world.; people wearing suits, drinking Coca, speaking English… In India, parliament debate has to be in English… I bet you there are more people in Lhasa wearing Western style clothes than Tibetan or Han Chinese ones, more Western types of buildings than any tibetan buildings!

Be rational.

Dear Gpit,

While I have nothing against the rest of the post the above caught my eye. As a Chinese living in the USA why do you hate the western culture ?

Regards

 

[vish]

Salim, and Others,

Though unprecedentedly great progress has been made since 1949, Tibet is still the least developed area in China due to its human-unfriendly environment and its residual of past religious autocracy.

A much richer great democratic India still has 40% illiteracy, if Tibet has 40% uneducated people, why should you guys be so surprised?

Perhaps you’re surprised that a backward Tibet is at par with democratic India in terms of education! You’ll be even more surprised, if your amnesia is not too severe to remember or your knowledge is not too shallow to learn, that under the great leadership of Dalai Lama, Tibet had 90+% illiteracy!

There are indeed a lot of Tibetans seek prosperities in the rest of China. Why you never see, or care to see, that fact?

For high tech jobs in Tibet, indeed Tibetans are in a disadvantage position when competing with the rest of people due to their educational level: old Tibetan tradition caused by the religious autocracy of Lama emphasizes the importance of next life. As the article said, they rather be poor than to have a job. They are free to do so, just as those in India who’d rather to dwell the cave.

Another factor is language. If I can’t speak English, only Mohawk language, do you guys expect me to find a decent position in USA? So is the case in China if one can’t master mandarin Chinese. Decent hotel job in Tibet needs more than mandarin: it needs English!

As a matter of fact, Chinese government imposes rules similar to US “affirmative actions” to require certain amount of minority employees in certain organizations.

There hasn’t been a flawless economic/political policy worldwide. So is the one in Tibet. What we do know is that Lama system doesn’t work in bring Tibet to modernization and prosperity, by comparing the past and now in Tibet.

Well, if your mentality insists that Tibet needs its old culture but deserves no modernity and prosperity, then no point to debate.

Gyaiqen Xudain believers say this: Dalai Lama "Your smile is charming, but your behavior is harming".

If you talk about cultural genocide, the biggest murderer is the Western culture: its squared buildings all over the world.; people wearing suits, drinking Coca, speaking English… In India, parliament debate has to be in English… I bet you there are more people in Lhasa wearing Western style clothes than Tibetan or Han Chinese ones, more Western types of buildings than any tibetan buildings!

Be rational.

Dude, this does not counter our arguments at all.

 

[gpit]

Dear Gpit,

While I have nothing against the rest of the post the above caught my eye. As a Chinese living in the USA why do you hate the western culture ?

Regards

AN,

I do not hate Western culture. Instead, I love many aspects of that, though not all. And I am following western way of analyzing (dialectics) in making my statements you quoted. Frankly, without the existence of Western culture, many truth and marvels of the nature and humanity wouldn’t be discovered, at least not that soon. But, I don’t think you would argue much that that archievments come with damages, sometimes it is even bloody and genocidal.

If you can sense more deeply, I admire western styled square buildings that have been widely accepted worldwide due to their many advantages. They are definitely far better than the adobe of Pueblo or the teepees of Sioux. Western suits are also easier to put on and off with shinny and tidy look… There are too many to enumerate.

However, when I admire Western achievements, by knowing Western history, I also can’t help admiring Chinese achievements, by knowing Chinese history. I consider myself to be a lucky person to know the two side stories, or rather a sad person.

There are too many topics to talk. Per “cultural genocide”, do you think that article's analysis is flawed, if not biased against and unfair towards China?

If English is your mother tongue, I bet you wouldn’t argue much that genocide is “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.”? And perhaps, “cultural genocide” can be extended to mean “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a culture.”?

How is Tibetan culture being deliberately and systematically exterminated? Does that mean that Tibetan culture can be revived when it reverts to pre-1950, where illiteracy was 90+% and living slaves’ bones, skulls and skins could be asked for at religious Lords’ will?

If one argues that their religious believers are diminishing, Languages are not spoken. (note that Tibetan populations are actually increasing), can the other argue that those of influx are westernized Han Chinese, and they bring to Tibet more Western cultures than Chinese ones: ideas of doing high tech business, building western styled edifices, the way of life, and the philosophy of market competition?

Parliament debate should be regarded as the highest form of cultural manifesto, yet Indians have to resort to a foreign language.

As a matter of fact, the prevalence of Western ideas brings damages to Chinese traditional culture as well.

As I said, be rational and practical. If you understand what I meant: if cultural genocide were of that definition, western culture would be the culprit.

There is always a price to pay to develop. But if not to develop, perhaps it will be more costly. What we should do is to control the collateral damage, not simply point figures or bring in confrontations, which is easy and childish but not constuctive.