The botched strike: IAF found with its pants down - Again

[masterchief_mirza]

I must thank you for sharing such a gem of information for my knowledge and [ushing me to make some efforts to dig into some more information based upon OSINT. Let's just begin with geography/locations of some villages including the one where the AMRAAM was found along with geographical evidence based upon Districts/Tehsil and location along with the details you shared.

Tehsil Chassana is a part of Reasi. Chassana village is located in Gool Gulabgarh Tehsil of Reasi district in Jammu & Kashmir. The total geographical area of village is 986.6 hectares.

View attachment 708444

Interestingly. Rajouri is nearest town to Chassana which is approximately 179km away which is in-fact a driving distance and would be different than a direct fly path. A rough estimate if I may say.

So, the peace of that AMRAAM Aim-120C5 was found in Chassana village, district Reasi which is close to only town namely Rajouri. I am sure you will agree with the points as above which are official and as per google as well. A rough estimate of a direct fly path from Chassana Village, Reasi to Rajouri shows that 21.70 Miles or 34.92 KM maximum (rough estimate).

Now, we have an Indian news ABP clip whereby a news media outlet records interview of eye witnesses most probably from IOJ&K Nowshera (as that what the media person said during interview). I am not even mentioning the RT with PAF which pretty much validates as what really happened to ill fated SU-30 MKI. Interestingly, these eye witnesses saw an IAF A/C coming in from Rajouri side and flying towards LoC but they saw taking a hit and going down in Peer Baba/Bhawani-B side while pointing. Mind you, people do point towards a certain location in reference to some famous point even if that is far ahead, merely to draw a path/way or as a guiding point. Surely, no one can exactly pin point the location merely by looking at some projectile coming down in far area. This video is here with detail of an eye witness account for 2nd IAF loss. The places mentioned & reference recorded are nowhere close to IAF MiG-21 Bison (Abhinandan) crash site. This finding and important information by ABP News was also shot down by India or avoided/censored deliberately to cover an extra loss on that day, the SU-30 MKI.

Indian eyewitness discloses the other IAF plane loss on 27th February, 2019. | Indian eyewitness discloses the other IAF plane loss on 27th February, 2019. Was it IAF SU-30 MKI being shot by PAF? Eyewitness from Indian side of LoC... | By Pakistan D

Indian eyewitness discloses the other IAF plane loss on 27th February, 2019. Was it IAF SU-30 MKI being shot by PAF? Eyewitness from Indian side of LoC...

fb.watch

https://twitter.com/x/status/1184417197457887232

Now we have another mention of Bhawani B (Locality Name : Bhawani-b ( Bhawani-बी ), Block Name : Nowshera, District : Rajauri) which does fall within Rajouri district.

View attachment 708453

In reference to what Eye Witnesses said and as the Indian Media claims that IOJ&K Police recovered the debris of AIM-120C5 AMRAAM of PAF from Chassani village, here I try to make some rough estimate with an exception of human error for me as well as for the eye witness that nobody as such can exactly point the area merely by looking in a direction. Since, these are locals so they at-least tried to show some pathway as where the IAF 2nd jet went down.

Since, the crash was reported and IAF had to go on SAR, Mi-17V5 was launched which was targeted by Indian Air Defence on outskirts of Budgam with 6 onboard (fratricide). If we pay attention then it had the same trajectory fly path to which IAF A/C previously flew as per Eye Witness but got a hit and returned.

Even if these sites are far and not in same direction the eye witness mentioned, what really happened in that area of Bhoani or Bhawani B, Sher Makri and between Rajouri to Nowshera. Mind you, these places are not inside Azad Kashmir but in-fact IOJ&K. Here is what Hindustan Times has to say...
View attachment 708446

Another news says

“There is enough evidence to show that F-16s were used in this mission through their electronic signatures. Parts of AMRAAM air-to-air missile, which is carried only on the F-16s, was recovered east of Rajouri within Indian territory,” Air Vice Marshal R.G.K. Kapoor told reporters.

Again the Nowshera Sector...

This news peace was also taken down immediately.

I was honestly thinking the same thing when reading through @Tejas Spokesman 's post.

Great own goal by him.

 

[crankthatskunk]

you look to be victim of indian action .


indian generals dont run pizza papa jons business in america . they dont settle abroad .

Yeah , we know, they sell "Pakoras" on Modi's tea stall.

 

[SQ8]

I must thank you for sharing such a gem of information for my knowledge and [ushing me to make some efforts to dig into some more information based upon OSINT. Let's just begin with geography/locations of some villages including the one where the AMRAAM was found along with geographical evidence based upon Districts/Tehsil and location along with the details you shared.

Tehsil Chassana is a part of Reasi. Chassana village is located in Gool Gulabgarh Tehsil of Reasi district in Jammu & Kashmir. The total geographical area of village is 986.6 hectares.

View attachment 708444

Interestingly. Rajouri is nearest town to Chassana which is approximately 179km away which is in-fact a driving distance and would be different than a direct fly path. A rough estimate if I may say.

So, the peace of that AMRAAM Aim-120C5 was found in Chassana village, district Reasi which is close to only town namely Rajouri. I am sure you will agree with the points as above which are official and as per google as well. A rough estimate of a direct fly path from Chassana Village, Reasi to Rajouri shows that 21.70 Miles or 34.92 KM maximum (rough estimate).

Now, we have an Indian news ABP clip whereby a news media outlet records interview of eye witnesses most probably from IOJ&K Nowshera (as that what the media person said during interview). I am not even mentioning the RT with PAF which pretty much validates as what really happened to ill fated SU-30 MKI. Interestingly, these eye witnesses saw an IAF A/C coming in from Rajouri side and flying towards LoC but they saw taking a hit and going down in Peer Baba/Bhawani-B side while pointing. Mind you, people do point towards a certain location in reference to some famous point even if that is far ahead, merely to draw a path/way or as a guiding point. Surely, no one can exactly pin point the location merely by looking at some projectile coming down in far area. This video is here with detail of an eye witness account for 2nd IAF loss. The places mentioned & reference recorded are nowhere close to IAF MiG-21 Bison (Abhinandan) crash site. This finding and important information by ABP News was also shot down by India or avoided/censored deliberately to cover an extra loss on that day, the SU-30 MKI.

Indian eyewitness discloses the other IAF plane loss on 27th February, 2019. | Indian eyewitness discloses the other IAF plane loss on 27th February, 2019. Was it IAF SU-30 MKI being shot by PAF? Eyewitness from Indian side of LoC... | By Pakistan D

Indian eyewitness discloses the other IAF plane loss on 27th February, 2019. Was it IAF SU-30 MKI being shot by PAF? Eyewitness from Indian side of LoC...

fb.watch

https://twitter.com/x/status/1184417197457887232

Now we have another mention of Bhawani B (Locality Name : Bhawani-b ( Bhawani-बी ), Block Name : Nowshera, District : Rajauri) which does fall within Rajouri district.

View attachment 708453

In reference to what Eye Witnesses said and as the Indian Media claims that IOJ&K Police recovered the debris of AIM-120C5 AMRAAM of PAF from Chassani village, here I try to make some rough estimate with an exception of human error for me as well as for the eye witness that nobody as such can exactly point the area merely by looking in a direction. Since, these are locals so they at-least tried to show some pathway as where the IAF 2nd jet went down.

Since, the crash was reported and IAF had to go on SAR, Mi-17V5 was launched which was targeted by Indian Air Defence on outskirts of Budgam with 6 onboard (fratricide). If we pay attention then it had the same trajectory fly path to which IAF A/C previously flew as per Eye Witness but got a hit and returned.

Even if these sites are far and not in same direction the eye witness mentioned, what really happened in that area of Bhoani or Bhawani B, Sher Makri and between Rajouri to Nowshera. Mind you, these places are not inside Azad Kashmir but in-fact IOJ&K. Here is what Hindustan Times has to say...
View attachment 708446

Another news says

“There is enough evidence to show that F-16s were used in this mission through their electronic signatures. Parts of AMRAAM air-to-air missile, which is carried only on the F-16s, was recovered east of Rajouri within Indian territory,” Air Vice Marshal R.G.K. Kapoor told reporters.

Again the Nowshera Sector...

This news peace was also taken down immediately.

Lets see what loghorrea comes up in reply trying to dismiss their own sources. A lie simply cannot last, it unravels itself.

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi another reason of not going too hot for data of downing for MKI can be a polite request by the Russians not to beat the bush too much as they might have been showed these radar signatures
though we should keep on thing in mind beside the Chinese in the area russians also have digital foot prints around Afghanistan Pakistan & India another thing is Israeli have better intelligence in terms of radar signatures which also give them the hint not to beat the bush or it can turn into fire
just a thought
thank you

 

[The Eagle]

I was honestly thinking the same thing when reading through @Tejas Spokesman 's post.

Great own goal by him.

I am still looking for another source link, reported from IOJ&K about the debris of AMRAAM. As I recall the memory, villager noted that he heard an explosion in the sky at first. As he was looking to sky to understand what really happened, he saw smoke and after a while, debris injured one of the nearby villager. Most of people were outside homes due to the sound of blast/explosion in the air. This was the conclusion from article and that statement was recorded by police as well. I am searching library and archives with me and am surely going to find it. Furthermore, the above quoted lame excuse come article is related too when they awarded the villager and police. What I read was about the same day of 27th Feb, 2019.

Lets see what loghorrea comes up in reply trying to dismiss their own sources. A lie simply cannot last, it unravels itself.

Can't disagree Chief...

He just helped eventually. These self proclaimed Indian Professionals have so much to claim that they have been attending even Indian security brewings but interestingly, to cover a lie, they come up with thousand of more lies.

I read your previous post about us being explaining etc and then his sudden lame come back just pushed me towards something which was remaining incomplete due to missing dots as such. Speaking of disowning their own, we can still visit and read that 27th February thread. I just did it up-to 154 pages from start and I don't have words that how everything changed.

By the way Chief, will find some of our residents with all the frustration venting against forces. Still a fun to read thoug.

 

[airmarshal]

sadly Pakistani media is worse than the 3rd rate stage dramas of Lohar* in india fake news is peddled like the truth here we have something in our favor and nothing.

*Lahore

Absolutely correct. Whenever I switch to see news on our idiotic private media, I only see obsession with opposition failed movement.

 

[SQ8]

I am still looking for another source link, reported from IOJ&K about the debris of AMRAAM. As I recall the memory, villager noted that he heard an explosion in the sky at first. As he was looking to sky to understand what really happened, he saw smoke and after a while, debris injured one of the nearby villager. Most of people were outside homes due to the sound of blast/explosion in the air. This was the conclusion from article and that statement was recorded by police as well. I am searching library and archives with me and am surely going to find it. Furthermore, the above quoted lame excuse come article is related too when they awarded the villager and police. What I read was about the same day of 27th Feb, 2019.



Can't disagree Chief...

He just helped eventually. These self proclaimed Indian Professionals have so much to claim that they have been attending even Indian security brewings but interestingly, to cover a lie, they come up with thousand of more lies.

I read your previous post about us being explaining etc and then his sudden lame come back just pushed me towards something which was remaining incomplete due to missing dots as such. Speaking of disowning their own, we can still visit and read that 27th February thread. I just did it up-to 154 pages from start and I don't have words that how everything changed.

By the way Chief, will find some of our residents with all the frustration venting against forces. Still a fun to read thoug.

Off topic -

I’ll repeat what I do ad nauseum.. the Pakistani military is sourced from the Pakistani population. Regardless of an academy(which in turn is also staffed by Pakistanis), they are exposed to and carry the same burdens of our collective society including nepotism and corruption. Why does one see more success or “reputation” with the British examination system that runs in parallel with the local system? Because the former has much stricter controls on cheating - yet, past papers and other items do on and off end up leaked from this as well.

So when one “trusts” the military more is simply because one institution’s standards have stood up relatively better than the rest of the country. That doesn’t mean that members of that institution are not prone to corruption, nepotism,purely selfish goals or cowardice. It is just that the checks and balances (at whatever level they are effective) work enough to keep some standards in check.

This concept of messiah’s taken from poorly understood Islamic theology is so embedded in Pakistani psyche that their choice of leadership figures then becomes untouchable.

In a nutshell, Islam has one prophet - final and impeccable in character.None equal him or will ever equal him -unfortunately, Pakistanis look for Nabis everywhere, be it Maulana so and so AS,Bhutto and Bibi (AS), Sharif(AS), General(AS), Dr Q(AS), Khan(AS), pen-di-siri(AS) etc etc.. and all those who oppose these nabis are automatically murtid.

In context for me AS would mean something not suited for public discourse.

So - On topic .. what the PAF achieved that day wasn’t due to some miracle or otherwise. They simply were led & trained better that day regardless of all the limitations which include those mentioned in the paragraphs above.

another day, another time - those limitations can rear their head and cause severe embarrassment.. or as a nation Pakistanis can improve their national character by collective effort and collective distributed leadership instead of messiahs to overcome the aforementioned challenges.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Sharing a news piece from a propaganda news site of so-called police dating back to 01.03.2019? However, can you share the time difference to Delhi & thereby a press conference by IAF showing the same piece which was found at 10:15 hrs..as claimed. I am also sure the all the document process and reporting would have taken good couple of hours along with by road traveling from Tehsil Chassana to nearest HQ and then informing the authorities and so on to the time when IAF showed the piece which they must have received hours before press conference. Any logical calculation based upon distance, resources, travel means, process etc would be really appreciated.

Police was reported about the missile wreck on Feb 27 (1030 am). They reached the spot in an hour and by evening the wreck reached Udhampur air station (2 hrs drive fron wreck location).
The next day morning (Feb 28) it was flown to Delhi and displayed at the conference held at 7PM in the late evening

we have an Indian news ABP clip whereby a news media outlet records interview of eye witnesses most probably from IOJ&K Nowshera (as that what the media person said during interview). I am not even mentioning the RT with PAF which pretty much validates as what really happened to ill fated SU-30 MKI. Interestingly, these eye witnesses saw an IAF A/C coming in from Rajouri side and flying towards LoC but they saw taking a hit and going down in Peer Baba/Bhawani-B side while pointing. Mind you, people do point towards a certain location in reference to some famous point even if that is far ahead, merely to draw a path/way or as a guiding point. Surely, no one can exactly pin point the location merely by looking at some projectile coming down in far area. This video is here with detail of an eye witness account for 2nd IAF los

In that video, eywitness who is in Sher Makadi is clearly talking about Abhinandan's MiG-21 since his Mig crash site in AJK was just 4 km from our sher makadi tehsil in J&K

Distance between Sher Makadi & MiG-21 crash site (Latitude: 33° 13' 54.6" North Longitude: 73° 57' 23.4" East) is about 5 km. And as Sher Makadi is just 2 km from LoC any crash smoke/fire there would be visible to Pakistanis just like MiG-21 crash smoke was visible to Indians. Which means Pakistanis would have then posted pics of smoke or fire on Indian side of LoC.

Also since the MiG-21 crash site was so close to Sher Makadi he though it might have crashed there. We know that Abhinandan MiG-21 came from the direction of Rajauri so his description matches exactly with Abhinandan MiG-21. He says he saw a plane crashing near Sher Makadi which is just 5 km from actual crash site of Abhinandan so he might have though that Abhinandan's falling plane came down in sher makadi.

Plus he clearly mentions he saw ONE pilot ejecting which matches with Abhinandan MiG 21 description as Sukhois have two pilots

Most importantly he says he was behind a hill which means he did not have line of sight to crash site (could not directly see it).

Even prominent western Think tank DFRLab agrees that the MiG-21 was hit when it was moving towards India

 

[The Eagle]

Police was reported about the missile wreck on Feb 27 (1030 am). They reached the spot in an hour and by evening the wreck reached Udhampur air station (2 hrs drive fron wreck location).
The next day morning (Feb 28) it was flown to Delhi and displayed at the conference held at 7PM in the late evening

In that video, eywitness who is in Sher Makadi is clearly talking about Abhinandan's MiG-21 since his Mig crash site in AJK was just 4 km from our sher makadi tehsil in J&K

Distance between Sher Makadi & MiG-21 crash site (Latitude: 33° 13' 54.6" North Longitude: 73° 57' 23.4" East) is about 5 km. And as Sher Makadi is just 2 km from LoC any crash smoke/fire there would be visible to Pakistanis just like MiG-21 crash smoke was visible to Indians. Which means Pakistanis would have then posted pics of smoke or fire on Indian side of LoC.

Also since the MiG-21 crash site was so close to Sher Makadi he though it might have crashed there. We know that Abhinandan MiG-21 came from the direction of Rajauri so his description matches exactly with Abhinandan MiG-21. He says he saw a plane crashing near Sher Makadi which is just 5 km from actual crash site of Abhinandan so he might have though that Abhinandan's falling plane came down in sher makadi.

Plus he clearly mentions he saw ONE pilot ejecting which matches with Abhinandan MiG 21 description as Sukhois have two pilots

Most importantly he says he was behind a hill which means he did not have line of sight to crash site (could not directly see it).

Even prominent western Think tank DFRLab agrees that the MiG-21 was hit when it was moving towards India

First of all, I am surprised by the logic that Pakistanis would have taken some photos of smoke etc that too in Bhawani B area of IOK whereas every single Indian been rejecting every evidence presented on every single time. I am not referring any Pakistani evidence so that India must not feel being victimised.

Now coming to the subject of Abhinandan, will you please share points on the map like I did? No verbal postal address. Abhinandan took a hit in the face and fell down on this side. Speaking of line if sight of the witness, point the exact place of MiG-21 crash and Sher Makri as well Bhawani B on the map will then clarify a lot.

Interestingly, he was totally cut off from Indian ground operators and even from his wingman while flying Solo. I don't see him sneaking that quick into Pakistan, taking an alleged shot against F-16 and then returning to home base for more weapons and fuel. I am sure you are getting my point exactly given his intrusion, getting hit and coming down in straight trajectory as compare to your intended explanation of gliding debris which would have made them witnesses to be mistaken. Since I did a bit of work with map, I really expect someone expert from Indian side to show a bit of courtesy and share these points on the map clearly. Otherwise, it's just everyone can right pages of commentary and keeps coming back merely for the sake of it. Lest not waste our time on already discussed things.

The witness uses his left hand to point Rajouri, yeah a human practice merely to point into a direction but that should be taken as rough estimation so I leave lot of room here. Then the same witness points towards Bhawani B/Sher Makri like those areas are in front of him. Since the point is established that these guys were in Nowshera Sector, they must be standing at point in the midway of Rajouri to Bhawani B/ Sher Makri. The same location also means they are further deep inside IOK which will also helps us understand that how far these superhuman were able to see whether if it was Abhinandan going down and they also him taking a hit and turning into a fireball. Mind you, they were on other side of hill and you have already pointed out so I am sure you will consider that too.

Also, why Mi-17V5 of IAF took out of Srinagar on a trajectory towards the same Rajouri while it was shot down outside Budgam? The way IAF shot it down pretty much speaks the volume of situation within Indian lines and then it's long intended flight from the home base to be found in the mid of highly contested battlefield.

Currently, using a cellphone so I will apologize in advance from everyone for any typo etc. Furthermore, I will later share further white hat data as well once I have access to Laptop. Till then, I leave him to work a bit too with screen grabs, map and some paint job etc to share with us instead of a keyboard shooting.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Now coming to the subject of Abhinandan, will you please share points on the map like I did? No verbal postal address. Abhinandan took a hit in the face and fell down on this side. Speaking of line if sight of the witness, point the exact place of MiG-21 crash and Sher Makri as well Bhawani B on the map will then clarify a lot.

Western think tank DFR Lab has identified location of MiG 21 crash And also determined that the MiG had Turned Back towards India when it was hit:

IN DEPTH: Indian Plane Shot Down Over Pakistan in February

What we know about the MiG-21 shootdown in Pakistan on February 27, 2019

medium.com

Coordinates can be determined from location given of impact zn 1.

Abhinandan was hit from behind & had turned back

The fact that the aircraft was struck at the rear coupled with the dispersion of the wreckage in a northeasterly direction suggests that the MiG was struck from behind at a point where it was moving toward the Indian border.

Distance between mig crash site and sher makadi village is 5-6 km and as DFR lab itself mentioned, Mig crash site is only 3.5 km from LoC.

Also Mi-17 was hit north of Srinagar airport (where it took off from) and was moving towards Kupwara.
If it was going towards Rajouri it would have proceeded Southwest of Srinagar airport

 

[m52k85]

IN DEPTH: Indian Plane Shot Down Over Pakistan in February

What we know about the MiG-21 shootdown in Pakistan on February 27, 2019

medium.com

Coordinates can be determined from location given of impact zn 1.

Abhinandan was hit from behind & had turned back

Since you quote the DFRLab article, do you agree with the part that says:

" Since all R-73 missiles were accounted for, the claims that the wing commander fired a missile before his aircraft was struck seem highly unlikely. "

Meaning no F-16 was downed?

Or do you just cherry pick from the article to advance your debate with @The Eagle regarding the Su-30.

 

[The Raven]

What happens to an A2A missile after it misses the target? It self destroy after burning out the fuel, that was what happened to the AMRAAM presented by the IAF.

Sour Dung, You're making the mistake of assuming only 1 AMRAAM was fired by the PAF on that day. Even if 1 AMRAAM crashed and was found, that doesn't preclude the possibility of another proximity detonating against an Su-30MKI. In addition, from what Alan Warnes and the PAF have said, based on radar track data, it seems the Su-30MKI may have been severely damaged and limped back to base, rather than completely destroyed and crashed somewhere. The PAF most likely fired a volley of AMRAAMs to keep the Sukhois and other IAF assets at a safe distance from the PAF strike package.

In any case, the argument for the PAF is stronger than the IAF's case of Abhi firing a missile and destroying a PAF Viper, because Abhi did not fire any missile, his drop tanks were still attached, and he had no clue where he was with so situational awareness. Lame accusations of the PAF "buying fake Russian missiles off eBay" further demonstrate the desperation of indians like you.

 

[The Eagle]

Western think tank DFR Lab has identified location of MiG 21 crash And also determined that the MiG had Turned Back towards India when it was hit:

IN DEPTH: Indian Plane Shot Down Over Pakistan in February

What we know about the MiG-21 shootdown in Pakistan on February 27, 2019

medium.com

Coordinates can be determined from location given of impact zn 1.

Abhinandan was hit from behind & had turned back



Distance between mig crash site and sher makadi village is 5-6 km and as DFR lab itself mentioned, Mig crash site is only 3.5 km from LoC.

Also Mi-17 was hit north of Srinagar airport (where it took off from) and was moving towards Kupwara.
If it was going towards Rajouri it would have proceeded Southwest of Srinagar airport

Dude, I was expecting better. The map shall not be like the blank barren land with nothing to point. Wil pay attention to how how screen grabbed the map with default markings and then draw some lines. I can take 100 of screen shots and then mention some arrows along with markings of impact and call it, he was going there and someone was coming here and then there were few on the ground. These screenshots does not clarify the place or area at all except for your markings. Come up with something better even if you take some more time. There is no rush to reply merely for the sake of it as an attempt to prolong your argument in replies to me for the sake of it. I have patience but there is always an end of everything.

The argument is not about MiG-21 going upward or downward or backward at all. I have gone through report of Lab long ago. We are here discussing what the eyewitnesses saw, the place of AMRAAM finding, another plane being shot and locations of possible impact of second crash contrary to Mig-21 Bison or vice versa. Remember that Abhinandan plane did not glide at all rather, came down straight.

Abhinandan was hit from behind & had turned back

Dude was maneuvering merely to take a pot shot given the practice to fly low, sneak, rise and fire. Listen to him as what he said..... "I was looking for a target while I got shot down" and that does not mean he was looking for a target in Budgam so he turned back and was shot from behind.

 

[Saudang]

Sour Dung, You're making the mistake of assuming only 1 AMRAAM was fired by the PAF on that day. Even if 1 AMRAAM crashed and was found, that doesn't preclude the possibility of another proximity detonating against an Su-30MKI. In addition, from what Alan Warnes and the PAF have said, based on radar track data, it seems the Su-30MKI may have been severely damaged and limped back to base, rather than completely destroyed and crashed somewhere. The PAF most likely fired a volley of AMRAAMs to keep the Sukhois and other IAF assets at a safe distance from the PAF strike package.

In any case, the argument for the PAF is stronger than the IAF's case of Abhi firing a missile and destroying a PAF Viper, because Abhi did not fire any missile, his drop tanks were still attached, and he had no clue where he was with so situational awareness. Lame accusations of the PAF "buying fake Russian missiles off eBay" further demonstrate the desperation of indians like you.

ok

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Just let it be guys and girls. PAF and IAF know what happened on the 26th and 27th February 2019.

The most important thing is though if the Air forces do the correct analysis of what happened and take the next steps.

Let the IAF be in denial. This will only be the best for Pakistan. When you get a bloody nose and then you don´t want to accept it nor do you want to find out why, you are doomed to get a bloody again....