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The biggest corruption scandal in the history of Pakistan ( Reko diq or Karkey pales in comparison). Dr Samar Mubarak was right.

Can you tell us which government did JV with Engro to produce the cheapest Electricity in Thar . The OP forgot to mention This Thar JV started in 2014 in the era of Nawaz shareef :woot::woot: and plant became operational in April 2019 , Dont tell me that it was built in 6 months after PTI came to government.

Lack of information can Lead to Irony ? Isnt it a pitty for sadiqs and ameens with jannat ul - firdaus ticket ? 😂



Good for us , Cheap electricity is the need of the country. When it comes online we will know the production costs of these power plants 🙂. Lets see if they can achieve Rs 4 price.
You really got a selective memory!!!!!!!
Who is baddest amongst Sharifs and Zardaris?
One is DON VITO CORLEONE
Other
MICHAEL CORLEONE
 
I do believe going for Lng was right decision, but all those contracts were a mess from the get go, and were expensive by any international standards. The idea to build an Lng ecosystem, was in principle a correct decision, and should not be criticized, it is the way that idea has manifested, and the contributing factors, must be. But if you have details of those feasibility reports (for UGCG) , kindly share, it will be a good read and greatly appreciated.

the decision to go LNG was to favor 12 -13 big distributors and 2-3 large companies . ( ENGRO etc )

change my mind
 
1: Remember Qatari Gas contracts ?not a year ago during corona ? :-) Those contracts looked messed up because you were comparing dirt cheap prices of oil and gas during peak corona lock down period with a contract that commenced during normal times ( for that time it was the cheapest price) ? Go and check yourself . If it wasnt why the same contracts worked previously and demand of power and gas was well coped with . But suddenly everything started disappearing ? Simply , if you dont forecast demand and dont import on time you cannot blame others for it you will have gas and electricity shortage , Thats why i am calling it incompetence thats why we are only getting gas 3 hours daily in winters.

Hi,

Actually I have always criticized Qatar (2016) contract and other PMLN era Lng contracts. I will quote few of my earlier comments for better understanding.

There was an article in Bloomberg in September, detailing how Pakistan will save $600 million over the course of 10 years and was all praise for PMLN government - they used an average price of $60 for Brent oil (LNG ~$8 per mmBtu) although it was much lower ($ 39) in December, 2015 at the signing of contact, today this Brent is $84 (LNG ~$11.2 per mmBtu). Since we are supposed to import 3.75 million tonnes of LNG annually (per contract), QatarGas II walked with over $45 million in just a month. The contracted price for the deal is 13.37% of averaged Brent price forecast for next 3 months. The price is non-negotiable for 10 years. Qatar did us no favors.
Hi,

The guy raised some good points, specially regarding lack of exploration contracts but he did injustice by comparing spot to term contracts, and spoiled it for me, maybe it was inadvertent (also Qatar contract term is 2016 - 2031). Apart from that, he asked some valid questions regarding a) take or pay clause, b) lack of storage and ragasification facilities. I will add volumes sought and cargo flexibility to that list too. There are ample shortcomings in all LNG contracts signed during PMLN term, whether it is for imported LNG or regasification and storage facility or in our case lack of it, regardless it was due to their corrupt intent, incompetency or lack of planning and vision, we are stuck with them. PTI needs to get out of this blame game mindset and stop media trials, and start actual trials. They have been in government for 2 and half years, blaming and tweeting about it, not gonna solve or change anything.

IMO, it is futile to discuss benefits of spot over long term (there aren't many) - the comparison is flawed in too many ways. Spot is volatile, and depends on too many factors, just the last month unplanned shutdown of QGT4 up-ticked it, no economy can survive solely on it. PMLN was not wrong in inking long term contracts, term contracts offer security for importer's economy which no spot can ever offer. They were wrong in the way they negotiated and inked those contracts. One can also argue about opting for LNG all together and lack of exploration contracts but these flashy titles of 230% lower price shows naivety and lack of understanding of market, which surprisingly PTI officials have propagated themselves, which takes away all the seriousness out of discussion.

PMLN signed 2 long and 1 short term import contracts.

1. QatarGas II (ExxonMobil operated and not just Qatar) - (13.37% of brent, 2.25 million tonnes/ year or 3 cargoes/ month for 1st year from 2016 Q1 till 2017 Q1, and 3.75million tonnes/ year or 5 cargoes/ month, from 2017 Q2-2031)
2. ENI (ENI operated Indonesian field) - (1cargo/ month for 15 years, total 180 cargoes, Price: 11.6247% for the first two years (2017 through 2019 - 24 cargoes), 11.95% for the following two years (2019 through 2021 - 24 cargoes), then 12.14% for the remaining 11 years (2021 till 2032, 132 cargoes) , Contract Term: 2017-2032)
The wrong doings in above are self explanatory.
3. Gunvor Singapore (Gunvor operated Indonesian field) (1 cargo/ month for 5 years term for 11.6247% of brent, total cargoes 60 - Contract term 2017-2022)

All these contracts are on 'take or pay' basis.

I haven't read much on Pakistan's Shale prospect, but there was a feasibility report some years ago that US funded, shale requires investments , the way things are going, government can't commit to it, so it will be an expensive affair involving international players and foreign money (if we can find any willing to invest, in first place). No international operator, whether American (Exxon) or Chinese (CNPC) will agree to invest in Pakistan without a contract that heavily favors them. And then there will be fracking issue, all this will require careful planning. PMLN miserably failed in that section, I am not too hopeful about PTI too.
Hi,

It was not. The contract price (13.37%) was well above average price for the contract year (2016) and the contract month (Feb, 2016).


1614692772244.png

https://aperc.or.jp/file/2020/9/1/Changing+LNG+market+dynamics_implication+for+supply+security+in+the+APEC+region.pdf
1614693454902.png

https://igu.org/app/uploads-wp/2020/04/2020-World-LNG-Report.pdf


In short, Pmln contract at 13.37% Brent, was a good 10-12% higher than the International market price (for long term contracts), which translates to Pakistan paying an extra $2.345 million per cargo or $140 million per annum (when Brent is at $50), for the complete contract term an extra $2.1108 Billion. When Brent is at $100, we pay an extra $4.69 million per cargo or $281 million per annum, for the complete contract term an extra $4.221 Billion.

1639652553520.png


1639652748681.png



There is no Free Sui Gas reserves anymore , you have to import just to cook food wether you like it or not .


This I do tend to agree. If we can't find any major gas field, we will have to solely rely on imported gas.

2: First I am not an engineer neither am i related to thar coal project, so dont expect me to answer or technicalities of Coal gasification . Sorry for using the word not feasible ( Pardon for that) , But the thing is Dr. Samar Mubarakmand worked on pilot coal Gasification project himself but i believe there were hurdles and ambiguities in scaling up . You know why Dr. Sahab was proposing and working on this project at first place ? Because Open pit mining was deemed unfeasible in thar desert at first place (Dr.Sahab has confirmed this himself in many interviews). Now Chinese has helped us out and we are mining lignite so no the need for gasification anymore i believe. Thats why Dr.Sahab's project is not a priority anymore i believe and rightly so , Cost and benefit analysis is a factor in this case. Correct me if i am wrong.


I don't have much knowledge regarding Dr. Samar works on UGCG (there isn't much on the project specifics on internet, and hence was interested in the feasibility report) but in the video posted in earlier post, he directly and unapologetically accused Ahsan Iqbal and with extension NS, for blocking the funding when he had explicitly apprised them of the success of his pilot project. I hoped, Ahsan Iqbal or Planning Commission had done some kind of study before deeming the project unfeasible, and had defended themselves publicly against the accusation levelled by Dr. Samar.

 
Hi,

Actually I have always criticized Qatar (2016) contract and other PMLN era Lng contracts. I will quote few of my earlier comments for better understanding.






In short, Pmln contract at 13.37% Brent, was a good 10-12% higher than the International market price (for long term contracts), which translates to Pakistan paying an extra $2.345 million per cargo or $140 million per annum (when Brent is at $50), for the complete contract term an extra $2.1108 Billion. When Brent is at $100, we pay an extra $4.69 million per cargo or $281 million per annum, for the complete contract term an extra $4.221 Billion.

View attachment 801353

View attachment 801354





This I do tend to agree. If we can't find any major gas field, we will have to solely rely on imported gas.




I don't have much knowledge regarding Dr. Samar works on UGCG (there isn't much on the project specifics on internet, and hence was interested in the feasibility report) but in the video posted in earlier post, he directly and unapologetically accused Ahsan Iqbal and with extension NS, for blocking the funding when he had explicitly apprised them of the success of his pilot project. I hoped, Ahsan Iqbal or Planning Commission had done some kind of study before deeming the project unfeasible, and had defended themselves publicly against the accusation levelled by Dr. Samar.


Well Fuel prices are always changing and based on the 2016 prices there wasnt a problem with the contract at 13% of Brent (Because of prices at that time). But you are again assuming the actual figures for price of LNG. If it was so expensive why the current setup could not Buy and provide cheaper gas to public than the previous spot contracts ? Why have the prices increased manifolds while actually your graph is showing a decrease? The truth is It was the cheap at that time and your last graph agrees with me on this. And we would have benefited for sure during and after corona times . Who will be responsible if government does a more expensive contract due to price hikes ?Another point to remember in LNG contracts is the contract percentage is derived based on fuel price , its not fixed and is changeing almost frequently with price fluctuation. Example One can get LNG at 5 % of Brent if the price are high e.g 100 Dollars but dont expect to get LNG at 5% when the price is 50 dollars the percentage will go up. (Percentage is derived based on prices and cost to the supplier). That is exactly why i am saying this contract was the cheapest based on the prices and percentages of that time. I would say this could happen to anyone if the price fluctuation is crazy.

Regarding Ahsan Iqbal and the rest of people didnt gave a go ahead is purely because of the reasons i stated. Why dig a well when you have dug a pool full of water?
 
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the decision to go LNG was to favor 12 -13 big distributors and 2-3 large companies . ( ENGRO etc )

change my mind

Hi,

Lets go back in time, to 2013-2014.

(1) Our own fields were depleting exponentially,
(2) Afghanistan was unstable, so TAPI was in bimbo,
(3) India had already left IP project, rendering it completely unfeasible for Pakistan, on top of it, the gas price was itself too high. (We had discussed IP at lengths in other thread)

So, if not for Lng, what were our options? The idea wasn't wrong, the way the idea was implemented, that was wrong.
 
Well Fuel prices are always changing and based on the 2016 prices there wasnt a problem with the contract at 13% of Brent (Because of prices at that time). But you are again assuming the actual figures for price of LNG. If it was so expensive why the current setup could not Buy and provide cheaper gas to public than the previous spot contracts ? Why have the prices increased manifolds while actually your graph is showing a decrease? The truth is It was the cheap at that time and your last graph agrees with me on this. And we would have benefited for sure during and after corona times . Who will be responsible if government does a more expensive contract due to price hikes ?Another point to remember in LNG contracts is the contract percentage is derived based on fuel price , its not fixed and is changes almost frequently with price fluctuation. Example One can get LNG at 5 % of Brent if the price are high e.g 100 Dollars but dont expect to get LNG at 5% when the price is 50 dollars the percentage will go up. (Percentage is derived based on prices and cost to the supplier). That is exactly why i am saying this contract was the cheapest based on the prices and percentages of that time.

Regarding Ahsan Iqbal and the rest of people didnt gave a go ahead is purely because of the reasons i stated. Why dig a well when you have dug a pool full of water?

Hi,

It is absurd to compare Long term contract prices with Spot prices. It was wrong when PTI did that, it is still wrong when others do it. It's simpleton and flawed approach. The graph shows long term contracts and their pricing trends. I think you are comparing them with spot prices. If you are then your drawn conclusions are wrong.

The long term contract prices have not been increasing, we have actually signed the lowest priced long term contract at 10.2% of Brent in Feb 2021 and have started to import 2 cargoes/ month from it since November 2021.

And again, the contract that Pmln signed was way too expensive (at 13.37%, against the market average of 12% of 2016), please read the articles and IGU report (their data is compiled from Rystaad Energy) in the earlier post, again.

Also, our Qatar or other long term Lng contracts don't have a ceiling or floor, if I understood you correctly. I think you are confusing Long term pricing with Spot pricing. Both these should be treated separately and shouldn't be clubbed together. It's an extremely naïve approach to their complex relationship.
 
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So, if not for Lng, what were our options? The idea wasn't wrong, the way the idea was implemented, that was wrong.

local industry is not able to survive , let alone be competitive on LNG

pakistan needs cheap NG asap , LNG can only work as a stop gap at best sir

IMO, LNG mafia is too strong, too entrenched in govt to allow for any alternative now ( central asia or iran option)
 
One way to deal with corruption is to spread awareness. Someone please make a series like Narcos on the corruption of Pakistan.
 
local industry is not able to survive , let alone be competitive on LNG

pakistan needs cheap NG asap , LNG can only work as a stop gap at best sir

IMO, LNG mafia is too strong, too entrenched in govt to allow for any alternative now ( central asia or iran option)

Hi,

I think Central Asia will make a come back, as without India, it gives Pakistan more options. We should see some kind of progress on TAPI after winters along with PSGP (Russian pipeline). But I don't think it will be cheaper. The price will likely be around same as our new Qatar contracted price (10.2% of Brent). For, Iranians it will be a hard sell, without India or China, as we don't have any money to build the pipeline on our own.
 
Hi,

It is absurd to compare Long term contract prices with Spot prices. It was wrong when PTI did that, it is still wrong when others do it. It's simpleton and flawed approach. The graph shows long term contracts and their pricing trends. I think you are comparing them with spot prices. If you are then your drawn conclusions are wrong.

The long term contract prices have not been increasing, we have actually signed the lowest priced long term contract at 10.2% of Brent in Feb 2021 and have started to import 2 cargoes/ month from it since November 2021.

And again, the contract that Pmln signed was way too expensive (at 13.37%, against the market average of 12% of 2016), please read the articles and IGU report (their data is compiled from Rystaad Energy) in the earlier post, again.

Also, our Qatar or other long term Lng contracts don't have a ceiling or floor, if I understood you correctly. I think you are confusing Long term pricing with Spot pricing. Both these should be treated separately and shouldn't be clubbed together. It's an extremely naïve approach.

Exactly it is absurd to compare long term to spot prices , You got it now. How can you conclude that it was expensive based on what comparison ? International price was the cheapest for that time. You dont have the audacity to talk about the contracts s when oil was like 40 $ Per Barrel because PTI government did the most expensive Spot contracts for LNG , You cannot compare because you know exactly what you are whining about . Thanks:pleasantry:
 
Leave them bro, the level of ignorance is unmatched.

This is the merit order list based on just the fuel cost/kwh ( for people who do not understand the generation cost stats in OP this will simplify it further).

View attachment 801289



Thar coal is at 3rd surpassing even most of natural gas based power plants let alone imported coal.
RLNG comes nowhere near thar coal ( cumulative value of long term and spot in table, even the long term contract is much more expensive than thar coal for power generation).

Hi,

Are these power plants co-owned, between Chinese private companies and Pakistan private companies, some kind of shareholding mechanism? Or are they solely Chinese private sector financed and owned? I have heard rumors (conspiracy theories) that these Chinese private firms are actually fronts for Pakistan corrupt elite and hence the contracts were so loosely drafted? Are there any truth to these, in terms of evidence?
 
Dr Samar for most his points is a very honest person and holds nothing back in person as to how corrupt exactly everyone is because he has dealt with everyone.

Sir G, I also think of him as you said. Somewhere, I heard that he was miserably failed to prove the gasification of Thar coalfield and deprived the exchequer a considerable amount with nil return/production. I will try my best to find the link to post here.

Edit: Adding the link
 
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Exactly it is absurd to compare long term to spot prices , You got it now. How can you conclude that it was expensive based on what comparison ? International price was the cheapest for that time. Thanks:pleasantry:

Hi,

Actually, I always knew it. Please read my earlier quoted posts.

The comparison with other long term contracts and its prices signed in year 2016, should be quite acceptable benchmark.

I have shared both IEA and Rystad data for long term contract price, both independent bodies.

Please enlighten me what was the average long term contract price for year 2016? Please provide some evidence to your assertions.

You dont have the audacity to talk about the contracts s when oil was like 40 $ Per Barrel because PTI government did the most expensive Spot contracts for LNG , You cannot compare because you know exactly what you are whining about .

Which contract do you wanna discuss specifically? Which spot contract PTI signed above market price, kindly quote one.
 
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Sir G, I also think of him as you said. Somewhere, I heard that he was miserably failed to prove the gasification of Thar coalfield and deprived the exchequer a considerable amount with nil return/production. I will try my best to find the link to post here.

Edit: Adding the link



 

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