The biggest corruption scandal in the history of Pakistan ( Reko diq or Karkey pales in comparison). Dr Samar Mubarak was right.

[farok84]

The Chinese already have this and employ it for domestic consumption. Synthetic gas, only an expert can comment on if our installed power plants are designed for use of synthetic gas but it can be used in fertiliser, industries and domestic consumption.

View attachment 801243

This is the projection of synthetic gas production in China.

Hi,

At the end of the day, the final product these power plants receive is the same lean gas, (CH4) - whether from Rlng or any other source.

 

[Gorgin Khan]

View attachment 801209

To explain the salient points.

1) This is the generation cost of IPP's. High ROI backed by sovereign state guarantee and capacity payments are separate. The cost easily exceeds Rs30/ kwh before reaching the Discos.

2) Janwars from plmn have been constantly lying that Thar coal is more expensive than imported coal ( Sahiwal coal). All it needed was economy of scale. The reality is thar coal is the cheapest base load apart from hydal or local gas ( which is running out).

3) Not only these imported fuel based IPP's cause significant impact on our Trade deficit ( This year alone it will cost us in ~ $6-10b in precious forex to import fuel to run these plants) but the ROI and the further charges are on top of this in relation to burden on forex.

4) With the economy of scale ( if the power projects utilized thar coal) regasification and diesel production thar coal has the capacity to solve impending gas crisis in Pakistan.

5) Recently some obvious handles were elatic that there was Fuel adjustment surcharge of 4 Rs per unit. Is it not obvious that if we run IPP based on imported fuel, with the broadbase increase in energy prices generation cost will go up. On the other hand Thar coal is completely indigenous source with no fluctuations based on international energy prices.

6) Majority of the cost from Thar coal generation goes into the ecosystem in our own country benefitting our own people creating jobs and improving our own mining industries contributing to GDP.

It is not rocket science to get coal out of ground, that too in thar.

@Zibago @SQ8 @waz @Jungibaaz @Clutch @Imran Khan @PanzerKiel @Windjammer @AZ1 @Signalian @ghazi52 @Sainthood 101 @HRK @araz @Path-Finder @The Eagle @The Eagle @TheDarkKnight @TheSnakeEatingMarkhur @RiazHaq @Vapnope @Valar. @Enigma SIG @Riz @Meengla @Menace2Society @Mav3rick @Aesterix @Goenitz @Blacklight @TNT and everyone else.

1. Would you show us how much it costs to produce from furnace oil Or what is the cheaper alternative ? LNG and coal are expensive seriously? Imported coal and LNG will always be cheaper to the other alternatives like wind and fuel.

2. Secondly you are taking current dollar rates right ? i bet it got more expensive with increase of dollar because the prices were fixed against dollar ? Who fucked up the cheap LNG contracts ? who is not importing fuel on time ? Who devalued the currency ?The government is incompetent, IPPS didnt devalued currency, the government did.

3. Thirdly your graph is showing figures from Coal and LNG and you are terming imported fuels and imported fuels . Why dont you waste some time and post the full cost of the cheaper alternatives pakistan is using apart from water ( Nuclear , wind etc) based on current prices?

4.For your information synthetic gas , It was not feasible thats why we went for open pit mining , that chapter is closed. Dont go round and round, thar coal is already producing from those open pits. Why is the government not adding more power plants to thar coal. Why only engro ? Mohmand and bhasha are old projects ? Which water based projects are being brought by current government. An I bet with you the figure for thar coal and engro is manipulated.

Actually you are ok with the dollar, fuel prices going up ? You are also ok with currency going down ? You are also Ok with producing from furnace oil. But out of all the power plants you have selected LNG AND COAL based plants ?

If you post full figures of all production power plants everything will get clear like day and night based on current statistics. I am not with or against IPPs but facts states differently

The representation of data is manipulative to target Coal and LNG IPPs Only contracted in previous governments . And yes please we have no gas and oil reserves so we have to import fuel there is no alternative to it Forget about your mantra of 5 to 10 billion import bill increase and decrease, It will only increase in future if you have to grow economy. Nothing else can be done about international fuel prices .

Another food for thought is check electricity prices from dams 8 years ago and now ? why are they going up within the basket ? Do tell me when you find out

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

1. Would you show us how much it costs to produce from furnace oil Or what is the cheaper alternative ? LNG and coal are expensive seriously? Imported coal and LNG will always be cheaper to the other alternatives like wind and fuel.

2. Secondly you are taking current dollar rates right ? i bet it got more expensive with increase of dollar because the prices were fixed against dollar ? Who fucked up the cheap LNG contracts ? who is not importing fuel on time ? Who devalued the currency ?The government is incompetent, IPPS didnt devalued currency, the government did.

3. Thirdly your graph is showing figures from Coal and LNG and you are terming imported fuels and imported fuels . Why dont you waste some time and post the full cost of the cheaper alternatives pakistan is using apart from water ( Nuclear , wind etc) based on current prices?

4.For your information synthetic gas , It was not feasible thats why we went for open pit mining , that chapter is closed. Dont go round and round, thar coal is already producing from those open pits. Why is the government not adding more power plants to thar coal. Why only engro ? Mohmand and bhasha are old projects ? Which water based projects are being brought by current government. An I bet with you the figure for thar coal and engro is manipulated.

Actually you are ok with the dollar, fuel prices going up ? You are also ok with currency going down ? You are also Ok with producing from furnace oil. But out of all the power plants you have selected LNG AND COAL based plants ?

If you post full figures of all production power plants everything will get clear like day and night based on current statistics. I am not with or against IPPs but facts states differently

The representation of data is manipulative to target Coal and LNG IPPs Only contracted in previous governments . And yes please we have no gas and oil reserves so we have to import fuel there is no alternative to it Forget about your mantra of 5 to 10 billion import bill increase and decrease, It will only increase in future if you have to grow economy. Nothing else can be done about international fuel prices .

Another food for thought is check electricity prices from dams 8 years ago and now ? why are they going up within the basket ? Do tell me when you find out

The whole thread by the OP is based entirely on intellectual dishonesty a hallmark of their cult. Cooking half baked stories and then believing in them has been their sorry tale till now. Seriously no point in arguing with them, they will learn with time .

 

[farok84]

Who fucked up the cheap LNG contracts ?

Hi,

Can you please elaborate on cheap lng contracts? With what barometer are you judging those contracts? And how were those contracts messed up by the incumbent government?

Also, can you please provide details for the failed feasibility related to UGCG? Who carried it out and what were the parameters contributing to its failure, Capex, Opex, transportation infrastructure or lack of it, Water shortage (Desalinated/ Demin water for steam generation), lack of targeted coal bed depth, lack of coal bed itself (to provide for enough gas recovery) etc? Kindly elaborate.

I do believe going for Lng was right decision, but all those contracts were a mess from the get go, and were expensive by any international standards. The idea to build an Lng ecosystem, was in principle a correct decision, and should not be criticized, it is the way that idea has manifested, and the contributing factors, must be. But if you have details of those feasibility reports (for UGCG) , kindly share, it will be a good read and greatly appreciated.

 

[Patriot forever]

Hi,

Can you please elaborate on cheap lng contracts? With what barometer are you judging those contracts? And how were those contracts messed up by the incumbent government?

Also, can you please provide details for the failed feasibility related to UGCG? Who carried it out and what were the parameters contributing to its failure, Capex, Opex, transportation infrastructure or lack of it, Water shortage (Desalinated/ Demin water for steam generation), lack of targeted coal bed depth, lack of coal bed itself (to provide for enough gas recovery) etc? Kindly elaborate.

I do believe going for Lng was right decision, but all those contracts were a mess from the get go, and were expensive by any international standards. The idea to build an Lng ecosystem, was in principle a correct decision, and should not be criticized, it is the way that idea has manifested, and the contributing factors, must be. But if you have details of those feasibility reports (for UGCG) , kindly share, it will be a good read and greatly appreciated.

Leave them bro, the level of ignorance is unmatched.

This is the merit order list based on just the fuel cost/kwh ( for people who do not understand the generation cost stats in OP this will simplify it further).

Thar coal is at 3rd surpassing even most of natural gas based power plants let alone imported coal.
RLNG comes nowhere near thar coal ( cumulative value of long term and spot in table, even the long term contract is much more expensive than thar coal for power generation).

 

[Gorgin Khan]

Hi,

Can you please elaborate on cheap lng contracts? With what barometer are you judging those contracts? And how were those contracts messed up by the incumbent government?

Also, can you please provide details for the failed feasibility related to UGCG? Who carried it out and what were the parameters contributing to its failure, Capex, Opex, transportation infrastructure or lack of it, Water shortage (Desalinated/ Demin water for steam generation), lack of targeted coal bed depth, lack of coal bed itself (to provide for enough gas recovery) etc? Kindly elaborate.

I do believe going for Lng was right decision, but all those contracts were a mess from the get go, and were expensive by any international standards. The idea to build an Lng ecosystem, was in principle a correct decision, and should not be criticized, it is the way that idea has manifested, and the contributing factors, must be. But if you have details of those feasibility reports (for UGCG) , kindly share, it will be a good read and greatly appreciated.

1: Remember Qatari Gas contracts ?not a year ago during corona ? Those contracts looked messed up because you were comparing dirt cheap prices of oil and gas during peak corona lock down period with a contract that commenced during normal times ( for that time it was the cheapest price) ? Go and check yourself . If it wasnt why the same contracts worked previously and demand of power and gas was well coped with . But suddenly everything started disappearing ? Simply , if you dont forecast demand and dont import on time you cannot blame others for it you will have gas and electricity shortage , Thats why i am calling it incompetence thats why we are only getting gas 3 hours daily in winters. There is no Free Sui Gas reserves anymore , you have to import just to cook food wether you like it or not .

2: First I am not an engineer neither am i related to thar coal project, so dont expect me to answer or technicalities of Coal gasification . Sorry for using the word not feasible ( Pardon for that) , But the thing is Dr. Samar Mubarakmand worked on pilot coal Gasification project himself but i believe there were hurdles and ambiguities in scaling up . You know why Dr. Sahab was proposing and working on this project at first place ? Because Open pit mining was deemed unfeasible in thar desert at first place (Dr.Sahab has confirmed this himself in many interviews). Now Chinese has helped us out and we are mining lignite so no the need for gasification anymore i believe. Thats why Dr.Sahab's project is not a priority anymore i believe and rightly so , Cost and benefit analysis is a factor in this case. Correct me if i am wrong.

 

[Gorgin Khan]

Leave them bro, the level of ignorance is unmatched.

This is the merit order list based on just the fuel cost/kwh ( for people who do not understand the generation cost stats in OP this will simplify it further).

View attachment 801289



Thar coal is at 3rd surpassing even most of natural gas based power plants let alone imported coal.
RLNG comes nowhere near thar coal ( cumulative value of long term and spot).

1. Regarding thar you are right . although the bar chart showed it on Rs 2 . Thar will always be cheaper from imported coal because of localization. What i said that imported Coal and LNG will always be cheaper to other alternatives such as wind and furnace oil and i stand corrected on that. why are we importing LNG in first place ? Lack of reserves and production, Sui depleted , Iran gas pipeline , TAPI is its not there. and we dont produce enough ........... Why is current government not investing in thar since last 4 years ? What did they do to produce more electricity ? How many new plants installed at thar other than engro ? I have already explained about thar in the last comment.

2: Thanks for sharing the list . Check your chart it says Sahiwal is producing at 17 RS but the list says 13 in year 2021 isn't it manipulation ? . Would you bother to tell me why you chose the 7 IPPS mentioned in the OP while forgetting to take dozens of others producing at Rs 20 +. You are comparison is purely manipulative the list confirms. You have no problem with KAPCO producing at RS 31 from RLNG but you have problems with Sahiwal ?

3. Sahiwal is the most expensive in coal plants in pakistan based on 2021 adjusted prices but its still cheaper than the RLNG and 2 Rs expensive than port Qassim because its the last one to come online and due to its location far from port. Yes because it uses imported coal , But how can you claim corruption and scandals when it is hitting the list at 35 out of 121 ? We all agree that hydel is cheaper than gas gas is cheaper than coal coal is cheaper than RLNG and RLNG is cheaper than Furnace Oil. It will even be cheaper if you source locally. Get a life and find a better job to do rather than manipulating facts. That chapter is closed due to open pit mining thats it.

 

[Bilal.]

1. Regarding thar you are right . although the bar chart showed it on Rs 2 . Thar will always be cheaper from imported coal because of localization. What i said that imported Coal and LNG will always be cheaper to other alternatives such as wind and furnace oil and i stand corrected on that. why are we importing LNG in first place ? Lack of reserves and production, Sui depleted , Iran gas pipeline , TAPI is its not there. and we dont produce enough ........... Why is current government not investing in thar since last 4 years ? What did they do to produce more electricity ? How many new plants installed at thar other than engro ? I have already explained about thar in the last comment.

There are right now 1980MW new power plants at different stage of completion in Thar. ThalNova, SSRL and Hubco. All of them will achieve commercial operations in 2022.

 

[imadul]

This is a conspiracy against Sharief Khandan. Shareifon nay tu Pakistan ki roshniyan bahal ki hain. Abi aatay hai PMLN kay tat poonjiyay aur apko aisi aisi choarein gay kay bas.
Arstoo is the prime culprit. When Dr Samar asked him to give him NOC for a 300 MW plant he shelved his plan despite Dr samar securing required funding. This fact was narated by Dr samar himself in an interview.

Have to agree. Sharifs integrity pales all in history. Our moste greatest leaders in sub continent history.
Anyone any idea how come the so easily and belligerently lie inducing their caravan-e-ghulaman.
Dont forget, many contracts were also signed by that Saheed rani.
Hamari qismat!!!

 

[Gorgin Khan]

Have to agree. Sharifs integrity pales all in history. Our moste greatest leaders in sub continent history.
Anyone any idea how come the so easily and belligerently lie inducing their caravan-e-ghulaman.
Dont forget, many contracts were also signed by that Saheed rani.
Hamari qismat!!!

Can you tell us which government did JV with Engro to produce the cheapest Electricity in Thar . The OP forgot to mention This Thar JV started in 2014 in the era of Nawaz shareef and plant became operational in April 2019 , Dont tell me that it was built in 6 months after PTI came to government.

Lack of information can Lead to Irony ? Isnt it a pitty for sadiqs and ameens with jannat ul - firdaus ticket ?

There are right now 1980MW new power plants at different stage of completion in Thar. ThalNova, SSRL and Hubco. All of them will achieve commercial operations in 2022.

Good for us , Cheap electricity is the need of the country. When it comes online we will know the production costs of these power plants . Lets see if they can achieve Rs 4 price.

 

[Patriot forever]

1. Regarding thar you are right . although the bar chart showed it on Rs 2 . Thar will always be cheaper from imported coal because of localization. What i said that imported Coal and LNG will always be cheaper to other alternatives such as wind and furnace oil and i stand corrected on that. why are we importing LNG in first place ? Lack of reserves and production, Sui depleted , Iran gas pipeline , TAPI is its not there. and we dont produce enough ........... Why is current government not investing in thar since last 4 years ? What did they do to produce more electricity ? How many new plants installed at thar other than engro ? I have already explained about thar in the last comment.

2: Thanks for sharing the list . Check your chart it says Sahiwal is producing at 17 RS but the list says 13 in year 2021 isn't it manipulation ? . Would you bother to tell me why you chose the 7 IPPS mentioned in the OP while forgetting to take dozens of others producing at Rs 20 +. You are comparison is purely manipulative the list confirms. You have no problem with KAPCO producing at RS 31 from RLNG but you have problems with Sahiwal ?

3. Sahiwal is the most expensive in coal plants in pakistan based on 2021 adjusted prices but its still cheaper than the RLNG and 2 Rs expensive than port Qassim because its the last one to come online and due to its location far from port. Yes because it uses imported coal , But how can you claim corruption and scandals when it is hitting the list at 35 out of 121 ? We all agree that hydel is cheaper than gas gas is cheaper than coal coal is cheaper than RLNG and RLNG is cheaper than Furnace Oil. It will even be cheaper if you source locally. Get a life and find a better job to do rather than manipulating facts. That chapter is closed due to open pit mining thats it.

1) Wind generation is not in the table because it does not require fuel. You are reading merit list on fuel cost / kwh.

2) The 1st one in the OP is tentative cost in 2nd half of December based on FCC.
The 2nd report I shared is the fuel cost per kwh is from earlier, the 1st half of December. I shared the report to highlight the cost differential between different fuels used in power generation.These are from 2 different time periods. ( revised fortnightly, the 2nd part of the fuel cost / kwh will be uploaded on NEPRA by the end of December)

3) Fuel cost/kwh is different than generation cost/kwh. Furthermore the overall cost of power generation is different depending on the IPP agreement.

Not all plants are operational and used, we do not run every plant in the list.

Hope that answers all of your questions.

 

[Goritoes]

No, this is not the biggest corruption in Pakistan, the biggest corruption was when Zardari's mom and dad mate to make a Haram khor like Zardari, who later married another corruption resulted girl aka Benazir... Corruption of that scale can not be found anywhere in the world.

 

[Zarvan]

The kind of damage and corruption this MAFIA family of not so shareefs have done. Trust me even decades after we would be hearing astonishing reports of their corruption.

 

[Gorgin Khan]

1) Wind generation is not in the table because it does not require fuel. You are reading merit list on fuel cost / kwh.

2) I did not make the graph , the 1st one in the OP is tentative cost in 2nd half of December based on FCC.

The 2nd report I shared is the fuel cost per kwh for the 1st half of December. I shared the report to highlight the cost differential between different fuels used in power generation.


3) Fuel cost/kwh is different than generation cost/kwh. This is why you see the largest difference in Sahiwal (most likely due to transportation cost)


4) Those are the major IPP's, the first 7 in the list. Nandipur is not mentioned because it is more expensive and further down the list. ( If I made the list I would have definitely included Nandipur).


5) The list is not all IPP's, it is a cumulative list of all power plants in Pakistan which run on fuel.

Your list Busted your OP...... Thanks

 

[Longhorn]

This IPP crap is really depressing. Im astonished as to why no proper judicial or other investigation have not been launched. This pig nawaz deserves a death penalty for this.

Because iss hammam mein sab nangey hain.