The Bear And The Other Side Of The Mountain

[Vassnti]

Only part way through but thanks for the links, reading the other side of the mountain first.

The ability of the DRA to do little more than run away or surrender does make me wonder why the US thinks their new afghan army will do any more than run away or swap sides and join the taliban on mass.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Thanks for your post---there is a difference---chechnya is fighting their own war against russia---the TTP is fighting someone else's war in swat and waziristan---.

It is just like taking down any insurgency---as had happened in india---like punjab and sikh issue---a massive lightening strike and no reprieve in between from start to end.

You are correct---the russians do say that they were invited to help control the restlessness---they had no plans for the warm waters.

If the truth be told---the reality is that it was the russian attitude which brought them down to their knees---they forgot the lesson they taught to germans---remember in the 2nd ww---the german brutalized the russians after they captured whatever cities---the russians realized that the germans were worse than the communists---then why not die for the motherland. If the germans had not under estimated the russina love for their country and treated the captured rusians with somne dignity---russia would have fallen like a ripe fruit.

Same is the case here---it was due to the russian brutality that made the afghans fight them---otherwise who needs a death by war.

Bottomline----when you take over another nation---think of it as your own---treat the locals with respect and there will be no insurgency.

Oh---the mightiest of the mighty---the u s of a---even they did indeed screw up in both the countries---iraq---afg---come to think of it---what are these super powers thinking from----not their brains in this case---throught their---ar-se wholes. Amazing coincidence isn't it. Sorry about the metaphor.

 

[gubbi]

Hi,
Thanks for your post---there is a difference---chechnya is fighting their own war against russia---the TTP is fighting someone else's war in swat and waziristan---.

Thanks. I do like meaningful discussions.
Anyway, differentiating Chechnya and TTP is a gross dangerous misconception. Both these wars are driven by a hijacked religious ideology, and both are internal wars, though TTP can be said to be a surrogate of the Afghan taliban. If they had the means to attack NATO in Afghanistan they would (as they did in Peshawar!). Dont their fighters shift between groups across the borders?

It is just like taking down any insurgency---as had happened in india---like punjab and sikh issue---a massive lightening strike and no reprieve in between from start to end.

Precisely. You give militants any reprieve and they regroup and strike again. But then again its during times of such intense operations that excesses are committed.

If the truth be told---the reality is that it was the russian attitude which brought them down to their knees---they forgot the lesson they taught to germans

WW2 was a different war. A just war! All wars after that are not just! That being said, Germans or rather the Third Reich was indeed the epitome of cruelty! However in the case of Soviets in Afghanistan, their actions resulted due to frustration stemming from lack of proper techniques to counter guerrilla warfare! Once they had that in place, number of such incidents dropped (read this part somewhere but cannot recollect the source, will post if I can find it). Though your reasoning about their arrogance is not out of place either.

Same is the case here---it was due to the russian brutality that made the afghans fight them---otherwise who needs a death by war.

On one hand you accept that SU entered Afghanistan on an invitation to quell some rebellion and then you say the Afghans fought back due to atrocities committed? I dont think so. The Soviets came in to quell a rebellion, got mired in a guerrilla war, committed atrocities and fueled further resentment against the Godless commies - a fact conveniently taken advantage by the CIA, the Saudis and the Pakistanis.

Bottomline----when you take over another nation---think of it as your own---treat the locals with respect and there will be no insurgency.

Your first part is right, I do agree with it. Second part, nope. Why? Because from what I have observed in these few previous wars, insurgencies arent driven primarily to oust the occupation force, but by more sinister motives- to grab power or creat a power block in the new order! Its all about political power, dosent matter if they sacrifice a few brainwashed people to achieve their goals.

Oh---the mightiest of the mighty---the u s of a---even they did indeed screw up in both the countries---iraq---afg---come to think of it---what are these super powers thinking from----not their brains in this case---throught their---ar-se wholes. Amazing coincidence isn't it. Sorry about the metaphor.

And that was the intention why I posted that article that NATO could learn from the Soviets' mistakes in Afghanistan.

 

[abbasniazi]

Brother Gubbi, I agree to you when u say NATO should learn from russian mistakes, but i do not agree when u say Chechinya and TTP movements are the same, Chechins were fighting against those who do not believe in GOD, TTP is fighting for those who believe in more then one GOD.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Actually that is what happened. Najibullah was a smart man and knew how to play the war lords and local commanders with SU money. Once that source dried up, the mujaheddin commanders switched loyalties, ousted him and established the mujaheddin govt.
Afghanistan wasn't lost because of battlefield losses, which there weren't many, but for the lack of political will in the erstwhile SU.

Check out this thread I posted:
The Soviet Victory That Never Was

Its all about the money in Afghanistan example:- Hekmatyar received millions of dollars from USA in 80s and when they stopped his pocket money (after the bear was gone) he turned against them.
They are all hired gun

 

[gubbi]

Brother Gubbi, I agree to you when u say NATO should learn from russian mistakes, but i do not agree when u say Chechinya and TTP movements are the same, Chechins were fighting against those who do not believe in GOD, TTP is fighting for those who believe in more then one GOD.

Its not about God(s), though God(s) are only a tool for a more sinister ulterior motive and that motive be Power! Fools are they who blindly believe they are fighting for God(s)!

 

[kamcos]

Its not about God(s), though God(s) are only a tool for a more sinister ulterior motive and that motive be Power! Fools are they who blindly believe they are fighting for God(s)!

better u change your animation. its nice but something alien.

rgds

 

[Hulk]

Two seminal works on the Soviet-Afghan War as seen from both the eyes of Soviet and Mujahideen commanders-

The Bear Went Over The Mountain: Soviet Combat Tactics In Afghanistan-LTC (ret.) Lester Grau translator and editor, Foreign Military Studies Office 1996

and its companion, The Other Side Of The Mountain: Mujahideen Tactics In The Soviet-Afghan War-

The Other Side Of The Mountain: Mujahideen Tactics In The Soviet-Afghan War- FMSO Ali Ahmad Jalali And LTC (ret.) Lester Grau

Superb reading, insightful if not perfectly applicable and, best of all...FREE. The Other Side Of The Mountain loads a tad slowly for me. If so for yourself, be patient. Best read by eliminating the bookmark to the left and reduced to 75% size. Enjoy.

Nice links, thx will read when I will have spare time.

 

[All-Green]

Thanks. I do like meaningful discussions.
Anyway, differentiating Chechnya and TTP is a gross dangerous misconception. Both these wars are driven by a hijacked religious ideology, and both are internal wars, though TTP can be said to be a surrogate of the Afghan taliban. If they had the means to attack NATO in Afghanistan they would (as they did in Peshawar!). Dont their fighters shift between groups across the borders?

Precisely. You give militants any reprieve and they regroup and strike again. But then again its during times of such intense operations that excesses are committed.

WW2 was a different war. A just war! All wars after that are not just! That being said, Germans or rather the Third Reich was indeed the epitome of cruelty! However in the case of Soviets in Afghanistan, their actions resulted due to frustration stemming from lack of proper techniques to counter guerrilla warfare! Once they had that in place, number of such incidents dropped (read this part somewhere but cannot recollect the source, will post if I can find it). Though your reasoning about their arrogance is not out of place either.

On one hand you accept that SU entered Afghanistan on an invitation to quell some rebellion and then you say the Afghans fought back due to atrocities committed? I dont think so. The Soviets came in to quell a rebellion, got mired in a guerrilla war, committed atrocities and fueled further resentment against the Godless commies - a fact conveniently taken advantage by the CIA, the Saudis and the Pakistanis.

Your first part is right, I do agree with it. Second part, nope. Why? Because from what I have observed in these few previous wars, insurgencies arent driven primarily to oust the occupation force, but by more sinister motives- to grab power or creat a power block in the new order! Its all about political power, dosent matter if they sacrifice a few brainwashed people to achieve their goals.

And that was the intention why I posted that article that NATO could learn from the Soviets' mistakes in Afghanistan.

Chechnyan's struggle against Russia and TTP motivation to wreak havoc are quite different.

You would do well to read an excellent book called "Sabres of Paradise"...it will shed great light on the Chechnyan Russian conflict which spans across centuries...
This book covers the savage 19th Century war between the Ice cold authoritarian Tzar Nicholas, Emperor of Russia and the Fiery and Legendary Imam Shamyl, leader of the Chechnya and Daghestan...it is a must read for all to understand why Chechnya and Russia do not get along and just how old this conflict is.

There is a lot more history and reason for the Chechnyan freedom fighters to fight Russia.
Comparing them to TTP is certainly not correct even if some Chechnyan groups have fallen prey to the TTP like tactics...