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The Aryans did not come from India; they conquered it

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A CENTURY and a half ago linguists invented a new map of the world. Their research showed that a single family tree stretches its branches almost unbroken across most of Eurasia: from Iceland to Bangladesh, most people speak languages descended from “Proto-Indo-European”. The philologists had a theory to explain why Sanskrit, the ancient forebear of Hindi, has closer cousins in Europe than in south India. They speculated that at some point before the composition of the Vedas, the oldest texts of Hinduism, an Aryan people had migrated into India from the north-west, while their kin pushed westward into Europe.

Long before the Nazis dreamed of an exalted master race, imperialists seized on what some dubbed the “Aryan invasion” theory to paint Britain’s rule of India as the extension of a “natural” order. Indians, too, found a use for it. Caste-bound Hindu conservatives declared that the paler-skinned intruders must be ancestors of higher-caste Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Such talk stirred a backlash in southern India, where generally darker-skinned speakers of Dravidian languages were urged to see themselves as a separate nation.

Hindu nationalists took a different tack. The West, some said, had made up the theory to set Hindus against each other. Christian missionaries and communists were using it to stoke caste hatred and so to recruit followers, they claimed. Worse, the theory challenged an emerging vision of Mother India as a sacred Hindu homeland. If the first speakers of Sanskrit and the creators of the Vedas had themselves been intruders, it was harder to portray later Muslim and Christian invaders as violators of a purity that good Hindus should seek to restore. So it was that some proposed an alternative “Out of India” theory. This held that the original Aryans were in fact Indians, who carried their Indo-European language and superior civilisation to the West.

Yet, even as Hindu nationalism has gained politically, culminating in the current rule of the conservative Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), evidence has mounted against the out-of-India hypothesis. Philologists have determined with a fair degree of certainty that the Vedas were probably composed between 1500BC and 500BC. Archaeology, meanwhile, indicates that a sophisticated urban civilisation had flourished in the Indus Valley around a thousand years earlier, but had collapsed before the Vedic Age.

The culture depicted in Sanskrit texts has different traits. It was largely rural and pastoral, relied on iron instead of bronze and appears to have used horses, chariots and bows and arrows—all of which are absent from the original Indus settlements. Proponents of the Aryan invasion conclude that a large influx of outsiders would neatly explain all this. Another clue: the proportion of Indians who can tolerate cows’ milk decreases markedly towards the east, suggesting that cattle-herders migrated into the country from the west.

Even so, fierce exchanges in Indian social media have greeted every new study. Academic researchers have found themselves branded Christian missionaries, “sickularists” or even Chinese agents. Lately, however, such controversy has shifted from linguistics and archaeology to genetics. As techniques of extracting, analysing and tracking DNA through time and place improve, a clearer picture is emerging.

An accumulating pile of research using DNA from both ancient human remains and modern people indicates strongly that, beginning around 2000BC, north-west India was indeed infused with new blood. The newcomers appear to have shared the same roots in what is now southern Russia as did the invaders of a similar-sized peninsula to the west called Europe. Strikingly, too, the genetic markers identifying this group seem to be far more prevalent among modern north Indian Brahmins than among other Indians.

Because of the difficulty in collecting ancient DNA, such research has until recently relied on relatively few samples. But an international team of 92 scholars, including David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard University who has pioneered techniques to analyse DNA more quickly and precisely, is set to publish data recovered from 362 “ancient individuals” from across South and Central Asia. Among their conclusions: there was probably an early migration of agriculturalists into India from what is now Iran, around 4000BC, and this was followed two millennia later—just before the Vedic Age—by a large influx from what is now southern Russia (see map).

20180407_ASM994.png


The wider study not only confirms that “Aryans” (geneticists avoid the term) probably migrated from the steppes around the Volga and Don rivers to both India and Europe at around the same time. It also shows that their genetic markers later spread southwards across India, and are indeed particularly prevalent in “groups of priestly status”.

https://www.economist.com/news/asia...it-new-study-squelches-treasured-theory-about
 
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Khatri, Jatt, Brahmin, Rajput, Kamboj, pathan etc are some of the prominent Aryan races in south asia. Both races are found in northern India and Pakistan.
 
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Scythian
ANCIENT PEOPLE
WRITTEN BY:
See Article History
Alternative Titles: Sacae, Saka, Scyth
Scythian, also called Scyth, Saka, and Sacae, member of a nomadic people, originally of Iranian stock, known from as early as the 9th century BCE who migrated westward from Central Asia to southern Russia and Ukraine in the 8th and 7th centuries BCE. The Scythians founded a rich, powerful empire centred on what is now Crimea. The empire survived for several centuries before succumbingto the Sarmatians during the period from the 4th century BCE to the 2nd century CE.

4008-004-C978372F.jpg

Scythian gold belt buckle with turquoise inlay, from Siberia; in the Hermitage, St. PetersburgNovosti Press Agency
Until the 20th century, most of what was known of the history of the Scythians came from the account of them by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus, who visited their territory. In modern times that record has been expanded chiefly by Russian and other anthropologists excavating kurgans in such places as Tyva and Kazakhstan.

The Scythians were feared and admired for their prowess in war and, in particular, for their horsemanship. They were among the earliest people to master the art of riding, and their mobility astonished their neighbours. The migration of the Scythians from Asia eventually brought them into the territory of the Cimmerians, who had traditionally controlled the Caucasus and the plains north of the Black Sea. In a war that lasted 30 years, the Scythians destroyed the Cimmerians and set themselves up as rulers of an empire stretching from west Persia through Syria and Judaea to the borders of Egypt. The Medes, who ruled Persia, attacked them and drove them out of Anatolia, leaving them finally in control of lands which stretched from the Persian border north through the Kuban and into southern Russia.

The Scythians were remarkable not only for their fighting ability but also for the complex culture they produced. They developed a class of wealthy aristocrats who left elaborate graves—such as the kurgans in the Valley of the Tsars (or Kings) near Arzhan, 40 miles (60 km) from Kyzyl, Tyva—filled with richly worked articles of gold, as well as beads of turquoise, carnelian, and amber, and many other valuable objects. This class of chieftains, the Royal Scyths, finally established themselves as rulers of the southern Russian and Crimean territories. It is there that the richest, oldest, and most-numerous relics of Scythian civilization have been found. Their power was sufficient to repel an invasion by the Persian king Darius I about 513 BCE.

The Royal Scyths were headed by a sovereign whose authority was transmitted to his son. Eventually, about the time of Herodotus, the royal family intermarried with Greeks. In 339 the ruler Ateas was killed at age 90 while fighting Philip II of Macedonia. The community was eventually destroyed in the 2nd century BCE, Palakus being the last sovereign whose name is preserved in history.

The Scythian army was made up of freemen who received no wage other than food and clothing but who could share in booty on presentation of the head of a slain enemy. Many warriors wore Greek-style bronze helmets and chain-mail jerkins. Their principal weapon was a double-curved bow and trefoil-shaped arrows; their swords were of the Persian type. Every Scythian had at least one personal mount, but the wealthy owned large herds of horses, chiefly Mongolian ponies. Burial customs were elaborate and called for the sacrifice of members of the dead man’s household, including wife, servants, and a number of horses.

Despite these characteristics, their many and exquisite grave goods, notably the animal-style gold artifacts, reveal that the Scythians were also culturally advanced. Further, some gold ornaments thought to have been created by Greeks for the Scythians were shown to have predated their contact with Greek civilization. See also Scythian art.



https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scythian

Saka
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the land of the Saka under the Sassanid dynasty, see Sakastan. Not to be confused with the Sakha, the endonym of the Yakut people of Siberia. For other uses, see Saka (disambiguation).

Scythia and Parthia in about 170 BC (before the Yuezhi invaded Bactria).
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The Saka or Saca (Persian: old Sakā, mod. ساکا; Sanskrit: Śaka; Ancient Greek: Σάκαι, Sákai; Latin: Sacae; Chinese: , old *Sək, mod. Sāi) was the term used in Middle Persian and Sanskrit sources for the Scythians, a large group of Eurasian nomads on the Eurasian Steppe speaking Eastern Iranian languages.[1][2][3] Modern scholars usually use the term Saka to refer to Iranians of the Eastern Steppe and the Tarim Basin.[4]

René Grousset wrote that they formed a particular branch of the "Scytho-Sarmatian family" originating from nomadic Iranian peoples of the northwestern steppe in Eurasia.[5] They migrated into Sogdia and Bactria in Central Asia and then to the northwest of the Indian subcontinent where they were known as the Indo-Scythians. In the Tarim Basin and Taklamakan Desert region of Northwest China, they settled in Khotan and Kashgar which were at various times vassals to greater powers, such as Han China and Tang China.



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[1Usage of name


Usage of name[edit]

Gold artifacts of the Saka in Bactria, at the site of Tillya Tepe, northern Afghanistan.
Modern debate about the identity of the "Saka" is partly from ambiguous usage of the word by ancient, non-Saka authorities. According to Herodotus, the Persians gave the name "Saka" to all Scythians.[6] However, Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus, AD 23–79) claims that the Persians gave the name Sakai only to the Scythian tribes "nearest to them".[7]The Scythians to the far north of Assyria were also called the Saka suni (Saka or Scythian sons) by the Persians.[citation needed] The Neo-Assyrian Empire of the time of Esarhaddonrecord campaigning against a people they called in the Akkadian the Ashkuza or Ishhuza.[8] However, modern scholarly consensus is that the Eastern Iranian language ancestral to the Pamir languages in North India and the medieval Saka language of Xinjiang, was one of the Scythian languages.[9]

Another people, the Gimirrai,[8] who were known to the ancient Greeks as the Cimmerians, were closely associated with the Sakas. In Biblical Hebrew, the Ashkuz (Ashkenaz) are considered to be a direct offshoot from the Gimirri (Gomer).[10]


A cataphract-style parade armour of a Saka royal, also known as "The Golden Warrior", from the Issyk kurgan, a historical burial site near ex-capital city of Almaty, Kazakhstan
The Saka were regarded by the Babylonians as synonymous with the Gimirrai; both names are used on the trilingual Behistun Inscription, carved in 515 BC on the order of Darius the Great.[11](These people were reported to be mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, later part of Armenia, and Shacusen in Uti Province derives its name from them.[12]) The Behistun Inscription initially only gave one entry for saka, they were however further differentiated later into three groups:[13][14][15]

  • the Sakā tigraxaudā – "Saka with pointy hats/caps",
  • the Sakā haumavargā – interpreted as "haoma-drinking saka" but there are other suggestions,[13][16][17]
  • the Sakā paradraya – "Saka beyond the sea", a name added after Darius' campaign into Western Scythia north of the Danube.[13]
An additional term is found in two inscriptions elsewhere:[18]

  • the Sakā para Sugdam – "Saka beyond Sugda (Sogdia)", a term was used by Darius for the people who formed the limits of his empire at the opposite end to Kush (the Ethiopians), therefore should be located at the eastern edge of his empire.[13][19]
The Sakā paradraya were the western Scythians (European Scythians) or Sarmatians. Both the Sakā tigraxaudā and Sakā haumavargā are thought to be located in Central Asia east of the Caspian Sea.[13] Sakā haumavargā is considered to be the same as Amyrgians, the Saka tribe in closest proximity to Bactria and Sogdia. It has been suggested that the Sakā haumavargā may be the Sakā para Sugdam, therefore Sakā haumavargā is argued by some to be located further east than the Sakā tigraxaudā, perhaps at the Pamir Mountains or Xinjiang, although Syr Darya is considered to be their more likely location given that the name says "beyond Sogdia" rather than Bactria.[13]

In the modern era, the archaeologist Hugo Winckler (1863–1913) was the first to associate the Sakas with the Scyths. John Manuel Cook, in The Cambridge History of Iran, states: "The Persians gave the single name Sakā both to the nomads whom they encountered between the Hunger steppe and the Caspian, and equally to those north of the Danube and Black Sea against whom Darius later campaigned; and the Greeks and Assyrians called all those who were known to them by the name Skuthai (Iškuzai). Sakā and Skuthai evidently constituted a generic name for the nomads on the northern frontiers."[13] Persian sources often treat them as a single tribe called the Saka (Sakai or Sakas), but Greek and Latin texts suggest that the Scythians were composed of many sub-groups.[20][21] Modern scholars usually use the term Saka to refer to Iranian-speaking tribes who inhabited the Eastern Steppe and the Tarim Basin.[4][22]

History[edit]

Artifacts found the tombs 2 and 4 of Tillya Tepe and reconstitution of their use on the man and woman found in these tombs
Greek and Persian reports[edit]
The Saka people were an Iranian people who spoke a language belonging to the Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages. They are known to the ancient Greeks as Scythians and are attested in historical and archaeological records dating to around the 8th century BC.[23] In the Achaemenid-era Old Persian inscriptions found at Persepolis, dated to the reign of Darius I (r. 522-486 BC), the Saka are said to have lived just beyond the borders of Sogdia.[24] Likewise an inscription dated to the reign of Xerxes I (r. 486-465 BC) has them coupled with the Dahae people of Central Asia.[24] The contemporary Greek historian Herodotus noted that the Achaemenid Empire called all of Scythians as "Saka".[24]


Captured Saka king Skunkha, from Mount Behistun, Iran, Achaemenid stone relief from the reign of Darius I(r. 522-486 BC)
Greek historians wrote of the wars between the Saka and the Medes, as well as their wars against Cyrus the Great of the Persian Achaemenid Empire where Saka women were said to fight alongside their men.[25] According to Herodotus, Cyrus the Great confronted the Massagetae, a people related to the Saka,[26] while campaigning to the east of the Caspian Sea and was killed in the battle in 530 BC.[27] Darius I also waged wars against the eastern Sakas, who fought him with three armies led by three kings according to Polyaenus.[28] In 520–519 BC, Darius I defeated the Sakā tigraxaudā tribe and captured their king Skunkha (depicted as wearing a pointed hat in Behistun).[4] The territories of Saka were absorbed into the Achaemenid Empire as part of Chorasmia that included much of the Amu Darya (Oxus) and the Syr Darya (Jaxartes),[29] and the Saka then supplied the Achaemenid army with large number of mounted bowmen.[15] They were also mentioned as among those who resisted Alexander the Great's incursions into Central Asia.[25]

Sakas in the Ili valley and Bactria[edit]
The Saka were known as the Sak or Sai (Chinese: 塞) in ancient Chinese records.[30][31] These records indicate that they originally inhabited the Ili and Chu River valleys of modern Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. In the Book of Han, the area was called the "land of the Sak", i.e. the Saka.[32] The exact date of the Sakas' arrival in the valleys of the Ili and Chu in Central Asia is unclear, perhaps it was just before the reign of Darius I.[32] Around 30 Saka tombs in the form of kurgans(burial mounds) have also been found in the Tian Shan area dated to between 550–250 BC. Indications of Saka presence have also been found in the Tarim Basin region, possibly as early as the 7th century BC.[23]

The Saka were pushed out of the Ili and Chu River valleys by the Yuezhi, thought by some to be Tocharians. An account of the movement of these people is given in Sima Qian's Records of the Grand Historian. The Yuezhi, who originally lived between Tängri Tagh (Tian Shan) and Dunhuang of Gansu, China,[33] were assaulted and forced to flee from the Hexi Corridor of Gansu by the forces of the Xiongnu ruler Modu Chanyu, who conquered the area in 177-176 BC.[34][35][36][37] In turn the Yuezhi were responsible for attacking and pushing the Sai (i.e. Saka) west into Sogdiana, where around 140 and 130 BC the latter crossed the Syr Darya into Bactria. The Saka also moved southwards towards to the Pamirs and northern India where they settled in Kashmir, and eastwards to settle in some of the oasis city-states of Tarim Basin sites like Yanqi (焉耆, Karasahr) and Qiuci (龜茲, Kucha).[38][39] The Yuezhi, themselves under attacks from another nomadic tribe the Wusun in 133-132 BC, moved again from the Ili and Chu valleys and occupied the country of Daxia (大夏, "Bactria").[32][40]

The ancient Greco-Roman geographer Strabo noted that the four tribes that took down the Bactrians in the Greek and Roman account – the Asioi, Pasianoi, Tokharoi and Sakaraulai – came from land north of the Syr Darya where the Ili and Chu valleys are located.[5][32] Identification of these four tribes varies, but Sakaraulai may indicate an ancient Saka tribe, the Tokharoi is possibly the Yuezhi, and while the Asioi had been proposed to be groups such as the Wusun or Alans.[5][41]

Grousset wrote of the migration of the Saka: "the Saka, under pressure from the Yueh-chih [Yuezhi], overran Sogdiana and then Bactria, there taking the place of the Greeks." Then, "Thrust back in the south by the Yueh-chih," the Saka occupied "the Saka country, Sakastana, whence the modern Persian Seistan."[5] According to Harold Walter Bailey, the territory of Drangiana (now in Afghanistan and Pakistan) became known as "Land of the Sakas", and was called Sakastāna in the Persian language of contemporary Iran, in Armenian as Sakastan, with similar equivalents in Pahlavi, Greek, Sogdian, Syriac, Arabic, and the Middle Persian tongue used in Turfan, Xinjiang, China.[24] This is attested in a contemporary Kharosthi inscription found on the Mathura lion capital belonging to the Saka kingdom of the Indo-Scythians (200 BC - 400 AD) in North India,[24] roughly the same time the Chinese record that the Saka had invaded and settled the country of Jibin 罽賓 (i.e. Kashmir, of modern-day India and Pakistan).[42]

Migrations of the 2nd and 1st century BC have left traces in Sogdia and Bactria, but they cannot firmly be attributed to the Saka, similarly with the sites of Sirkap and Taxila in ancient India. The rich graves at Tillya Tepe in Afghanistan are seen as part of a population affected by the Saka.[43]

The Shakya clan of India, to which Gautama Buddha, called Śākyamuni "Sage of the Shakyas", belonged, has been suggested to be Sakas by Michael Witzel[44] and Christopher I. Beckwith.[45]

Indo-Scythians[edit]
Main article: Indo-Scythians
The region in modern Afghanistan and Pakistan where the Saka moved to become known as "land of the Saka" or Sakastan.[24] The Sakas also captured Gandhara and Taxila, and migrated to North India.[46] An Indo-Scythians kingdom was established in Mathura (200 BC - 400 AD).[24] Weer Rajendra Rishi, an Indian linguist, identified linguistic affinities between Indian and Central Asian languages, which further lends credence to the possibility of historical Sakan influence in North India.[46][47] According to historian Michael Mitchiner, the Abhira tribe were a Saka people cited in the Gunda inscription of the Western Satrap Rudrasimha I dated to 181 CE.[48]

Kingdom of Khotan[edit]
Main article: Kingdom of Khotan

Coin of Gurgamoya, king of Khotan. Khotan, first century.
Obv: Kharosthi legend, "Of the great king of kings, king of Khotan, Gurgamoya.
Rev: Chinese legend: "Twenty-four grain copper coin". British Museum
The Kingdom of Khotan was a Saka city state in on the southern edge of the Tarim Basin. As a consequence of the Han–Xiongnu War spanning from 133 BCE to 89 CE, the Tarim Basin (now Xinjiang, Northwest China), including Khotan and Kashgar, fell under Han Chinese influence, beginning with the reign of Emperor Wu of Han (r. 141-87 BC).[49][50] The region once again came under Chinese suzerainty with the campaigns of conquest by Emperor Taizong of Tang (r. 626-649).[51] From the late eighth to ninth centuries, the region changed hands between the rival Tang and Tibetan Empires.[52][53] However, by the early 11th century the region fell to the Muslim Turkic peoples of the Kara-Khanid Khanate, which led to both the Turkification of the region as well as its conversion from Buddhism to Islam.


A document from Khotan written in Khotanese Saka, part of the Eastern Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages, listing the animals of the Chinese zodiac in the cycle of predictions for people born in that year; ink on paper, early 9th century
Archaeological evidence and documents from Khotan and other sites in the Tarim Basin provided information on the language spoken by the Saka.[24][54] The official language of Khotan was initially Gandhari Prakrit written in Kharosthi, and coins from Khotan dated to the 1st century bear dual inscriptions in Chinese and Gandhari Prakrit, indicating links of Khotan to both India and China.[55] Surviving documents however suggest that an Iranian language was used by the people of the kingdom for a long time Third-century AD documents in Prakrit from nearby Shanshan record the title for the king of Khotan as hinajha (i.e. "generalissimo"), a distinctively Iranian-based word equivalent to the Sanskrit title senapati, yet nearly identical to the Khotanese Saka hīnāysa attested in later Khotanese documents.[55] This, along with the fact that the king's recorded regnal periods were given as the Khotanese kṣuṇa, "implies an established connection between the Iranian inhabitants and the royal power," according to the Professor of Iranian Studies Ronald E. Emmerick.[55] He contended that Khotanese-Saka-language royal rescripts of Khotan dated to the 10th century "makes it likely that the ruler of Khotan was a speaker of Iranian."[55] Furthermore, he argued that the early form of the name of Khotan, hvatana, is connected semantically with the name Saka.[55]

Later Khotanese-Saka-language documents, ranging from medical texts to Buddhist literature, have been found in Khotan and Tumshuq (northeast of Kashgar).[56] Similar documents in the Khotanese-Saka language dating mostly to the 10th century have been found in the Dunhuang manuscripts.[57]

Although the ancient Chinese had called Khotan Yutian (于闐), another more native Iranian name occasionally used was Jusadanna (瞿薩旦那), derived from Indo-Iranian Gostan and Gostana, the names of the town and region around it, respectively.[58]

Shule Kingdom[edit]
Main article: Shule Kingdom
Much like the neighboring people of the Kingdom of Khotan, people of Kashgar, the capital of Shule, spoke Saka, one of the Eastern Iranian languages.[59] According to the Book of Han, the Saka split and formed several states in the region. These Saka states may include two states to the northwest of Kashgar, and Tumshuq to its northeast, and Tushkurgan south in the Pamirs.[60] Kashgar also conquered other states such as Yarkand and Kucha during the Han dynasty, but in its later history, Kashgar was controlled by various empires, including Tang China,[61][62] before it became part of the Turkic Kara-Khanid Khanate in the 10th century. In the 11th century, according to Mahmud al-Kashgari, some non-Turkic languages like the Kanchaki and Sogdian were still used in some areas in the vicinity of Kashgar,[63] and Kanchaki is thought to belong to the Saka language group.[60] It is believed that the Tarim Basin was linguistically Turkified before the 11th century ended.[64]

Language[edit]
Main article: Saka language

Drawing of the Issyk inscription
Attestations of the Saka language show that it was an Eastern Iranian language. The linguistic heartland of Saka was the Kingdom of Khotan, which had two varieties, corresponding to the major settlements at Khotan (now Hotan) and Tumshuq (now Tumxuk).[65][66] Both the Tumshuqese and Khotanese varieties of Saka contain many borrowings from the Middle Indo-Aryan Prakrit, but also share features with modern Wakhi and Pashto.[67]

The Issyk inscription, a short fragment on a silver cup found in the Issyk kurgan (modern Kazakhstan) is believed to be an early example of Saka, constituting one of very few autochthonous epigraphic traces of that language.[citation needed] The inscription is in a variant of Kharosthi. Harmatta identifies the dialect as Khotanese Saka, tentatively translating its as: "The vessel should hold wine of grapes, added cooked food, so much, to the mortal, then added cooked fresh butter on".[68]

The Saka heartland was gradually conquered during the Turkic expansion, beginning in the 4th century and the area was gradually Turkified linguistically under the Uyghurs.

Introduction to the Saka
The Saka included groups who were part of the Zoroastrian and Aryan families of nations. They included the Chorasmi from Khairizem / Khvarizem / Khwarezm (Gk. Chorasmia), the Parthava (Parthians), the Dahi (Dahae) and the Sistani.

The largest number of ancient Zoroastrian related ruins and artefacts, including a dakhma, a Zoroastrian burial tower known as a 'Tower of Silence', have been uncovered in Chorasmia / Khwarezm. The Dahi were one of the first five nations or people amongst whom Zarathushtra preached his message. The Parthava (Parthians) liberated Iran-Shahr from Macedonian rule and reconstructed the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta that had been destroyed by Alexander. Sistan's heroes, Sam, Zal and Rustam, were the pahlavans, the strongmen and protectors of the imperial Iranian throne. Their stories occupy the largest sections in Ferdowsi's epic poem, the Shahnameh.

For the main part, the traditional land of the Saka forms part of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan today.



Map of Saka lands- Modern. Click to enlarge

Herodotus (485 BCE - c. 420 BCE) and Strabo (c. 63/64 BCE - 24 CE) described the Saka (Sacae) in general as nomads who engaged in perpetual warfare plundering their neighbours and far off lands. However, Strabo and Herodotus mention exceptions to this generalization. Their comments together with supporting evidence indicate there were both settled and nomadic Saka. Strabo sums up the reputation of the Saka as follows: "They are self-assertive, uncouth, wild, and warlike, but, in their business dealings, straightforward and not given to deceit."


Encyclopedia of Ukraine (click for a larger map)
Scythia itself was a fairly small nation. The father of modern history, Herodotus, states the extent of Scythia in his Histories 4.21: Travelling west to east, "Across the Tanais (commonly today's Don River in the Ukraine) it is no longer Scythia; the first of the districts belongs to the Sauromatae, whose country begins at the inner end of the Maeetian lake (commonly taken to mean the Sea of Azov at the north of the Black Sea) and stretches fifteen days' journey north, and is quite bare of both wild and cultivated trees. Above these in the second district, the Budini inhabit a country thickly overgrown with trees of all kinds."

From about 800 to 300 BCE, the Scythia of Greek texts (also see Herodotus 4.21 above) extended east from the Carpathian Mountains in Central Europe - that is east of Rumania, Eastern Ukraine and Poland of today - east from the Carpathians to the Don River. To the south of Scythia was the Sea of Azov (the Maeetian Lake) and to the north, the start of the forests.

In other words the land of Scythia was a relatively small country that consisted of the grasslands of today's Moldova, Ukraine and Crimea. It was far removed from the eastern Saka lands and people. Certainly, as with any group in history, there would have been contact through conquest, plundering raids and even trade resulting in an osmosis of language elements and a borrowing of words. Nevertheless, in our investigation on the Saka, we have found no ethnic link between the Scythians and the Saka. Nor have we found an instance of the two forming a single community. Indeed, if we read the classical Greek accounts careful, we find it stated that the origins of the Saka are to be found in the east as part of the Central Asian Aryan family and not the west. As we shall see below, the Saka's links as well as their making or breaking of community are found with the Aryan and Zoroastrian family of nations.

The Saka were not Scythians - nor any variation thereof.

[Reader's need to make allowance that many ancient and modern writers were and are not scientific or circumspect in their writing. Many filled the gaps in their information with their imagination or skewed information to support a political or racial motive. For instance, Greek writers added to their substantive and convoluted mythology that the nations of Persia (and Media) were formed by Greek gods. Expropriators of The Irano-N. Indian Aryan heritage (including symbols) claim eastward migrations of their 'race'. Other machinations had the Caucasus Mountains as a birthplace of the white Caucasian 'race'. At one time, the Soviet Russians actively promoted the concept of eastward 'Scythian' migrations perhaps to bolster their imperial acquisition of the once Saka lands in Central Asia. Also see our page: Western Views on the Aryans. We are, however, pleased to see some modern writers beginning to voice a contrary opinion to the old Eurocentric bias. Wikipedia's page of Scythian Languages starts with the statement, "The Scythian languages are a group of Eastern Iranian languages of the classical and late antiquity (Middle Iranian) period...." While we feel it is untenable to link language associations categorically to genetics (or race) as so many linguists and philologists attempt to do, or to equate the spread of languages solely to migrations of 'races' (race-based constructs provide racists with academic support and thereby legitimacy for their bogus postulations), and while the Wikipedia page persists in using the term 'Scythian' in contexts where 'Saka' is the correct and authentic term, the page nevertheless provides some refreshing insights.

Some authors such as Oswald Szemerényi imply that the Sogdians were Scythians i.e. Saka. The Sogdians and various Saka are listed as separate groups in Achaemenid inscriptions. The Sogdians and Saka though separate did live in close proximity and there are indications that some Saka did inhabit parts of Sogdian lands at different points in history. When times of mutual accommodation gave way to competition, there were likely repeated inroads of one group into the lands of the other.]


6.19: "Ultra sunt Scytharum populi. Persae illos Sacas universos appellavere a proxima gente, antiqui Aramios, Scythae ipsi Persas Chorsaros et Caucasum montem Croucasim, hoc est nive candidum". For the primary translation of this passage, we get, "Beyond* (the Jaxartes River/Syr Darya mentioned previously in 6.18) are the Scythian people. The Persians call all as Saka after the nearest people, the ancient Arami, Scythians themselves Persians Chorsares (Chorasmian?*) and/also the Caucasian Mountain Croucasis, that is snow white/whitened (cf. Safeed Kuh/Paropamisus)." We get a secondary translation by inserting 'call': "Beyond (the Jaxartes River/Syr Darya) are the Scythian people. The Persians call all as Saka after the nearest people, the ancient Arami, Scythians themselves (call) Persians Chorsares (Chorasmian?**) and/also (call) the Caucasian Mountain Croucasis, that is snow white." [*"Beyond" the Jaxartes means east of the Jaxartes. **Khor in Old Iranian = Sun; as in Khorasan and Khorasmia/Chorasmia.]

Significantly, Pliny places his description of the 'Scythians' after his chapter on the Caspian Sea and before his chapter on the Seres (eastern most lands). His passage states (as does Herodotus) that the Persians call all those 'Scythians" descended from the Arami as Saka. 'Aram' is an Irano-N. Indian word. It could also be a corruption of Herodotus' 'Amyrgi'. Pliny lived during the Parthian reign of Aryana and we also know of Parthava as Khorasan. This might explain Pliny's statement regarding the "Persians Chorsares". Paradoxically, even though the West called the Parthians under the general appellation of 'Persians', the Parthians were originally a Saka group.

A note by Maj. Gen. Sir A. Cunningham in his article (at p. 223) published in the Royal Numismatic Society's Numismatic Chronicle (Great Britain, 1888) states, "In the Babylonian version of the inscriptions of Darius (likely at Behistun), Namiri (N'amiri?) is substituted for Saka. Perhaps Aramii should be Amarii." King Darius' inscription at Behistun that chronicles a secession by the Saka Tigra-Khauda is on column five. Gen. Cunningham's note indicates a possible relationship between 'Arami', 'Amyrgi' via 'Amiri' and the Saka Tigra-Khauda.

Darius in responding to the secession of the Saka Tigra-Khauda, states in his inscription that went he marched with his army to the Saka lands, he crossed a 'draya', a river, likely today's Syr Darya before encountering the Saka. Modern translators inevitably translate 'draya' as 'sea' and therefore translate 'para draya' incorrectly as 'across the sea'.


11.8.1, writes: "As one proceeds from the Hyrcanian Sea towards the east, one sees ... the tribe of the Parthians (Parthava) and that of the Margianians (Mouru) and the Arians; and then comes the desert which is separated from Hyrcania (Verkani/Gorgani) by the Sarnius River as one goes eastwards and towards the Ochus (Murghab) River...Then comes Bactriana, and Sogdiana, and finally the [Sacae] nomads."

In the account above, travelling west to east, Strabo's sources encounter the Saka beyond, i.e. east, of the Sogdians. Since the Syr Darya (River Jaxartes) formed the eastern Sogdian border, that would place those Saka to the east of the river. However, Strabo adds below, that the Saka are also to be found on the left (north) of the traveller starting with the Dahi who lived to the north of Varkana and Parthava (Hyrcania and Parthia) immediately after the Caspian, followed by the great Karakum (Garagum) desert, and then the Massagetae.

Strabo 11.8.2: "On the left and opposite these peoples are situated the [Sacae] or nomadic tribes, which cover the whole of the northern side. Now the greater part of the [Sacae], beginning at the Caspian Sea, are called Däae (Dahi), but those who are situated more to the east than these are named Massagetae and Saca, whereas all the rest are given the general name of [Sacae], though each people is given a separate name of its own. They are all for the most part nomads. But the best known of the nomads are those who took away Bactriana from the Greeks, I mean the Asii, Pasiani, Tochari, and Sacarauli, who originally came from the country on the other side of the Iaxartes (Jaxartes or Syr Darya or Sihun) River that adjoins that of the Sacae and the Sogdiani and was occupied by the Sacae. And as for the Däae, some of them are called Aparni* (see below), some Xanthii, and some Pissuri. Now of these the Aparni are situated closest to Hyrcania (Verkani/Gorgani) and the part of the sea that borders on it, but the remainder extend even as far as the country that stretches parallel to Aria."

Strabo 11.8.3: "Between them (Sacae) and Hyrcania and Parthia and extending as far as the Arians is a great waterless desert, which they (the Sacae) traversed by long marches and then overran Hyrcania (Verkani/Gorgani), Nesaea (Nisa), and the plains of the Parthians Parthians (Parthava).

To paraphrase the above: various Saka groups, Saka being a general term, inhabit the northern plains that stretch from the Dahae lands that lie to the east of the Caspian Sea all the way to Aria (today's Herat Afghanistan), and that between these Saka and the southern kingdoms of Hyrcania (Varkana/Gorgan), Nesaea (Nisa), the plains of the Parthians (plains just north of the Kopet Dag, Bactria (Northern Afghanistan) and Aria lies a great desert that some of the northern predatory Saka tribes crossed by long marches to raid the kingdom along the south of the desert and particularly Varkana, Nisa, and the Parthian plains. The Saka who lived beyond the Jaxartes River (Syr Darya) coincides with Saka Para-Darya, the 'Saka across the river'. The name Aparni* (see above) is found in the Middle Persian Zoroastrian text, the Bundahishn as Aparnak, one of the six male children of the legendary Saka king, paladin and champion of Iran-shahr, Sam, Rustam's grandfather. Aparnak was given over-lordship of the land of Aparshahr derived from Aparnak-shahr. The Aparni were apparently a royal house of the Dahi.

According to Strabo, the Saka consisted of:
- an eponymous group called the Saka as well as
- Dahi (largest) consisting of the clans such as the Aparni, Xanthii, and Pissuri and who were situated closest to the Caspian Sea
- Massagetae (who were situated east across the desert - today's Karakum/Garagum), and
- Asii, Pasiani, Tochari, and Sacarauli who original came from east of the Jaxartes (Syr Darya) and located presumably between the Oxus (Amu Darya) and Jaxartes (Syr Darya). The name Sacarauli appears to be Saka-rauli.

Unlike Strabo, Pliny in his Natural History at 6.19 (see above), does not mention any Saka (Sacae) nation west of the Jaxartes (Syr Darya). Those Saka that others understand as living west of the Jaxartes, Pliny names and the places in the east, but admits, as we have quoted above, "Indeed, upon no subject that I know of are there greater discrepancies among writers...." His account states that the Sacae (Saka) occupied lands east of the Jaxartes. His enumerates the Saka groups as follows:

The Saka groups are the, "Sacae (here spelt differently than his previous spelling of Sakas), the Massagetae, the Dahae, the Essedones (Issedones situated in today's Kyrgyzstan?), the Ariacae (They dwelt, according to Ptolemy, along the southern banks of the Jaxartes), the Rhymmici, the Paesici, the Amardi (Mardi, near Caspian), the Histi, the Edones, the Camae, the Camacae, the Euchatae (today's Bukhara?), the Cotieri, the Anthusiani, the Psacae, the Arimaspi, the Antacati, the Chroasai, and the Cetei; among them the Napaei are said to have been destroyed by the Palaei.

"The rivers in their country that are the best known, are the Mandragæus and the Carpasus. ...He (M. Varro) adds also, that under the direction of Pompey, it was ascertained that it is seven days' journey from India to the river Icarus, in the country of the Bactri, which discharges itself into the Oxus, and that the merchandize of India being conveyed from it through the Caspian Sea into the Cyrus, may be brought by land to Phasis in Pontus, in five days at most. There are numerous islands throughout the whole of the Caspian sea: the only one that is well known is that of Tazata."


Parthia (Parthava) as an Iranian kingdom was in existence around 1000 BCE. It was a successor nation to Nisaya, the fifth nation mentioned in the Zoroastrian scriptures', the Avesta's, book of Vendidad (see Vendidad nations). As a result, it is sometimes known was Parthaunisa. The Parthians liberated Iran-Shahr for Macedonian-Greek rule left behind by Alexander. They reassembled the Iranian federation of kingdoms, Iran-Shahr and they also reassembled fragments of the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta destroyed by Alexander (see our page on the destruction and recompilation of the Avesta).

The Parthians are thought to be a part of Dahi-Saka, (Dahae in western literature) a part of the greater Iranian-Aryan family that had its origins in an area around the upper reaches of the Syr Darya (Jaxartes) river. The Dahi migrated 1,500 km westward towards land around the southeast Caspian coast and the Kopet Dag mountains. The Dahi are mentioned in one of the oldest chapters of the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta, as one of the five original people to accept Zarathushtra's message, i.e. become Zoroastrian.

The Parthava may have in this manner shared origins with the ancestors of legendary Rustam of Sistan. The strongmen of both groups are called pahlavans, a word related to Pahlavi, a later form of Parthava. The Parthava in turn have Saka roots. The Saka pahlavans were protectors of Iran-Shahr and the Iranian throne, a role they would fulfil very well when they liberated Iran-Shahr from Macedonian rule. The word Sagzi is used in as a title for Rustam with the implication that the word is derived from Sakzig, a derivative of Saka. [We find Sakzig reminiscent of Tagzig (commonly thought to be Tajik), the nation where the Tibetan Bon claim spiritual roots.]


Farvardin Yasht 13.144where the fravashis (spiritual souls) of the Dahi's men and women are revered. The implication is that the Dahi, or some Dahi, were Zoroastrians - Zoroastrians worthy of perpetual veneration in each recitation of the scriptures. Contemporaneous with the life of Zarathushtra, Dahi, together with Airya (-nam), Tuirya (-nam), Sairima (-nam) and Saini (-nam), are the oldest in the Zoroastrian family of nations - nations that participated in the start of the Zoroastrian era.


Airyana Vaeja, ancient Airya, around the upper to mid Syr Darya or Jaxartes river. Today, that region extends from the Fergana Valley in Tajikistan to Tashkent in Uzbekistan.

According to Justinus, internal discord between the Saka forced the Parthians to leave their original homeland and migrate to new lands. The Dahi (Gk. Dahae) did the same and both migrated nearly 1500 km westwards towards the Caspian Sea. [For a further discussion, please see our Dahi page.] The entire area in-between the upper Syr Darya and the southern Caspian were settled by different Saka groups. Some Saka would have migrated eastward into present-day Kyrgyzstan as well.

The Saka connection with Eastern Iran's Sistan region appears to have taken place via two routes. The first and the more ancient was via the connection with ancient Parthava (Parthians), the Pahlavans or Paladins of Iran-shahr. The second took place during the liberation of Iran-shahr from Macedonian-Greek rule about 2,100 years ago resulting in the formation of Sagastan (Sakastan).



Map of Iranian-Aryan Nations of Central Asian, Dahi lands & migrations.
Click to see a larger map. Base Image Credit: Microsoft Encarta. Notations © K. E. Eduljee


Shahnameh, the Book of Kings.

The name Sagastan (Sakastan, meaning the land of the Saka), and Sistan are relatively modern names. We do not find these names in the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta or the Achaemenian inscriptions listing the nations of the Persian Empire (700-330 BCE) where we find the name Zraka or Zaranka (Gk. Drangiana) instead. The name Sagastan emerges in history during the Persian Sassanian empire (c. 200-650 CE) where we find the satrapy or kingdom of Sagastan located in the area of today's Sistan / Seistan province in eastern Iran. George Curzon in Persia and the Persian Question, vol 1 (1892), writes, "The derivation of the name Seistan or Sejestan from Sagastan, the country of the Sagan, or Sacae, has, says Sir H. Rawlinson, never been doubted by any writer of credit, either Arab or Persian." Not every writer shares Curzon's certitude.

In their flight from the invading Arabs c 650 CE, the Persians and their allies mounted significant resistance at Zarang in Sagistan (another name variation).

As we have stated above, the Saka connection with Eastern Iran appears to have taken place via two routes. The first and the more ancient was via the connection with ancient Parthava (Parthians), the Pahlavans or Paladins of Iran-shahr. The second took place during the liberation of Iran-shahr from Macedonian-Greek rule about 2,100 years ago resulting in the formation of Sagastan (Sakastan).


Ferdowsi's Shahnameh, Rustam's grandfather Sam received from his overlord, King of Iran-Shahr, Manuchehr, a throne of turquoise, a crown of gold, a ruby signet-ring and a golden girdle. Manuchehr further gave Sam with a charter investing him him lands under his domain. These included:
• the whole of Kabul (Gandhara),
• Dunbur (derived from Sanskrit Udyanapura to Adynpur to Dunpur - a major city of Lamghanat, on the right bank of the River Kabul),
• May-e Hind (from Vay-hind, capital of Gandhara and the region between the Kabul and Indus rivers above their confluence),
• Land from the Darya-e Chin (Chen-ab River, an Indus tributary which irrigates Multan) to Darya-e Hind (Indus River),
• Land from Zabulistan to the other side of Bust/Bost (Lashkar-gah, Southern Afghanistan).

Similarly, Rustam's overlord Kayanian King Kay Qubad granted him a fiefdom from Zabulistan to the Darya-e Sind, with the throne and crown of Nimruz; and Kabul to be given to Mihrab. Maintaining the tradition, Kayanian King Kay Khusrow bestowed on Framarz, Rustam's son, the kingdom of all Hind from Qinnauj (derived from Sanskrit Kanyakubja to Kanauj, a region of the Ganges) to Seistan, Hind (Sind), Dunbur, May, Bust, Zabul/Zabol, Kabul.

These immense lands cover what is today Seistan and Baluchistan in Iran, Afghanistan northern Pakistan, Kashmir and a large part of northern India.

If this is indeed history in some form, then the greater quasi-empire of Sakastan, a sub-empire if you will of the greater Iranian-Aryan (later Persian) empire, included what the Persians refer to as Hind i.e. India, and there was ample opportunity for Saka influence in India. There is some suggestion - a very tenuous one - that we have evidence of the Sakas in India. In Mathura, North-Central India (north of Agra and on the banks of the River Yamuna, a tributary of the Ganges, is a first century BCE inscription on the Mathura lion capital "honouring all Sakastanasa" cf. Sakastan, meaning land of the Saka. That reading of the words is debated and in any event, the sub-empire of Rustam would have long predated the 1st century BCE.
 
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Who are Khatri? do they have presence in Pakistan?

Khatri are today traders and business folk, but they formed the core of the Sikh faith, starting from Guru Nanak himself; if I remember correctly, all the Gurus were Khatri. Originally they seem to have been a peaceful set of people. When they were forced to take to arms, with the militarisation of Sikh society by Guru Gobind Singh, they took to it like ducks to water, and soon became a very strong military power by themselves, in spite of their relatively small numbers.

I presume that they exist in Pakistan, as all septs and groups were represented reasonably evenly throughout the Punjab (there were some who were confined to Potohar, I am told by Pakistani friends, but I am not knowledgeable about this).
 
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Khatri are today traders and business folk, but they formed the core of the Sikh faith, starting from Guru Nanak himself; if I remember correctly, all the Gurus were Khatri. Originally they seem to have been a peaceful set of people. When they were forced to take to arms, with the militarisation of Sikh society by Guru Gobind Singh, they took to it like ducks to water, and soon became a very strong military power by themselves, in spite of their relatively small numbers.

I presume that they exist in Pakistan, as all septs and groups were represented reasonably evenly throughout the Punjab (there were some who were confined to Potohar, I am told by Pakistani friends, but I am not knowledgeable about this).

Thank you, from wikipedia i learned their caste is disputed, They claim they are Kshatriya but Kshatriya don't accept them, they consider them lower caste.
 
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Who are Khatri? do they have presence in Pakistan?
Khatri are today traders and business folk, but they formed the core of the Sikh faith, starting from Guru Nanak himself; if I remember correctly, all the Gurus were Khatri. Originally they seem to have been a peaceful set of people. When they were forced to take to arms, with the militarisation of Sikh society by Guru Gobind Singh, they took to it like ducks to water, and soon became a very strong military power by themselves, in spite of their relatively small numbers.

I presume that they exist in Pakistan, as all septs and groups were represented reasonably evenly throughout the Punjab (there were some who were confined to Potohar, I am told by Pakistani friends, but I am not knowledgeable about this).

From what I have read online "khatri" seems to be a designation within the caste hierarchy of the region. Included within it are tribes like Uppal, Syal (sialkot is named after them), Sehgal, Malik, Sethi and others. I suppose on the Pakistani side the term never gained any popularity with tribes preferring their own names.
 
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only Dravidians are native to the land.. there is even a faint link between Dravidians and the long lost IVC.

After the latest publishing of genetic analysis referred to in the OP by @Kambojaric, this is no longer a faint link. Just to remind you, while the IVC peoples themselves were a mixture of agriculturists and settled urban people from the high plateaux to the west of the Indus Valley and hunter-gatherers from the South Asian sub-continent, after the decline of the IVC, two things happened.

Some survivors of the gradual, 600-year decay drifted north, north-east and east, moving from the great cities to increasingly smaller, and less and less imposing urban clusters. There they mingled with the original hunter-gatherers, and migrants from the steppes, to form what is known today as the Ancestral North Indian type. It is increasingly probable that the steppe migrants brought the Indo-Aryan branch of PIE into India, and helped north India and west India to become predominantly Aryan-speaking. These, as mentioned, were the ANI, the Ancestral North Indians, and almost all north Indians are descended from this stock.

Other survivors drifted east, south east and south, moving into the Deccan plateau and perhaps further. There they mixed once again with the hunter-gatherers who had contributed to their original parentage, at the time of the building of the IVC. All of these today speak one Dravidian language or the other; unless the IVC people spoke a completely different language, that is now lost, it seems the simplest thing to deduce from this is that the IVC people themselves spoke some sort of Dravidian language.

This southern branch of survivors, incidentally, are genetically what is called today the Ancestral South India, the other root stock from which present-day Indians are descended, in this case, south Indians. It is the simplest explanation to link the IVC people to the south Indians who speak Dravidian languages today.

Thank you, from wikipedia i learned their caste is disputed, They claim they are Kshatriya but Kshatriya don't accept them, they consider them lower caste.

Actually, the other way around. They don't think Rajputs are genuine kshatriyas, but they themselves are. There is no 'other' kshatriya as you mentioned; these are the only two left to fight it out (in the north; in the south, there are claimants).

From what I have read online "khatri" seems to be a designation within the caste hierarchy of the region. Included within it are tribes like Uppal, Syal (sialkot is named after them), Sehgal, Malik, Sethi and others. I suppose on the Pakistani side the term never gained any popularity with tribes preferring their own names.

It is difficult to tweeze out what is caste and what is tribe, in this context. What the Brahmins tried their level best to convert into a work-based occupational group, or jati, those who had nothing to do with the Brahmins saw these distinctions and differences as tribal. The names are the same, the people are the same, on one side, and within the penumbra of an egalitarian religion, they are perceived as tribes, on the other side, with a religion and a culture obsessed with taxonomy, they are perceived as castes and sub-castes.

My great great great grandfather, around early 1800's was a Khatri, who accepted Islam. He belonged to Gujar Khan region (Potohar)

There we go, then. I wasn't sure of this; thanks for confirming it.

@Kambojaric

So glad you published that commentary as the OP. Such a lot becomes clear on reading the report on the genetics of the region.
 
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After the latest publishing of genetic analysis referred to in the OP by @Kambojaric, this is no longer a faint link. Just to remind you, while the IVC peoples themselves were a mixture of agriculturists and settled urban people from the high plateaux to the west of the Indus Valley and hunter-gatherers from the South Asian sub-continent, after the decline of the IVC, two things happened.

Some survivors of the gradual, 600-year decay drifted north, north-east and east, moving from the great cities to increasingly smaller, and less and less imposing urban clusters. There they mingled with the original hunter-gatherers, and migrants from the steppes, to form what is known today as the Ancestral North Indian type. It is increasingly probable that the steppe migrants brought the Indo-Aryan branch of PIE into India, and helped north India and west India to become predominantly Aryan-speaking. These, as mentioned, were the ANI, the Ancestral North Indians, and almost all north Indians are descended from this stock.

Other survivors drifted east, south east and south, moving into the Deccan plateau and perhaps further. There they mixed once again with the hunter-gatherers who had contributed to their original parentage, at the time of the building of the IVC. All of these today speak one Dravidian language or the other; unless the IVC people spoke a completely different language, that is now lost, it seems the simplest thing to deduce from this is that the IVC people themselves spoke some sort of Dravidian language.

This southern branch of survivors, incidentally, are genetically what is called today the Ancestral South India, the other root stock from which present-day Indians are descended, in this case, south Indians. It is the simplest explanation to link the IVC people to the south Indians who speak Dravidian languages today.



Actually, the other way around. They don't think Rajputs are genuine kshatriyas, but they themselves are. There is no 'other' kshatriya as you mentioned; these are the only two left to fight it out (in the north; in the south, there are claimants).



It is difficult to tweeze out what is caste and what is tribe, in this context. What the Brahmins tried their level best to convert into a work-based occupational group, or jati, those who had nothing to do with the Brahmins saw these distinctions and differences as tribal. The names are the same, the people are the same, on one side, and within the penumbra of an egalitarian religion, they are perceived as tribes, on the other side, with a religion and a culture obsessed with taxonomy, they are perceived as castes and sub-castes.

Excellent as always Joe!!

Could you articulate a little more on eastern and north-eastern stock please. I'm particularly interested in the native Assam and adjoining area's populace of 2000 BCE to 1200 CE (i.e. prior to arrival of the Ahoms)....
 
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Actually, the other way around. They don't think Rajputs are genuine kshatriyas, but they themselves are. There is no 'other' kshatriya as you mentioned; these are the only two left to fight it out (in the north; in the south, there are claimants).

From wikipedia..

Kenneth W. Jones quoted that "the Khatris claimed with some justice and increasing insistence, the status of Rajputs, or Kshatriyas, a claim not granted by those above but illustrative of their ambiguous position on the great varna scale of class divisions" [14] Khatris claim that they were warriors who took to trade.[15] The 19th-century Indians and the British administrators failed to agree whether the Khatri claim of Kshatriya status should be accepted, since the overwhelming majority of them were engaged in Vaishya (mercantile) occupations.[16] There are Khatris that are found in other states of India and they follow different professions in each region. The Khatris of Gujarat and Rajasthan are said to have tailoring skills like "Darji" (tailor) caste.[17

Khatris maybe claiming higher status in anger of not being accepted as Kshatriya :enjoy:
 
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