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The Americans wonder: Why Did India Put Aging MiG-21 Jets on the Front Lines With Pakistan?

Balakot raid was by mirage2000 x 12 planes
They crossed 80 km into pak airspace bombed the camp and returned undetected
Your pilots radars and awacs did nothing .

The mig21 is India.s vintage fighter and we have 54 left. You shot him down as he engaged your fleeing f16 . He lost situation awareness in a hostile environment.

The mirage 2000 and su30mki did not lose situation swareness and avoided your multiple amraam shots
Not very often does one see a post which is wrong on so many accounts, but hey, its the Sir-Ge-Kal strike we are talking about and this one topics (along with PAF retaliation and the Chinese spanking of India more recently) the Indians are very sensitive about and thus are found lying through their teeth despite being caught and PROVEN wrong multiple times by Pakistani and Third party analysts and experts.

  • Balakot is 35-40 Km away from LoC not 80 Km
  • SPICE 2000 Stand-Off weapons were used in the attack with range of 60 Km.
  • Jet aircrafts were used for attack which wont be hovering over the target area to drop the munitions, the cannot do that, best case scenario they will have released the bombs 25-35 Km away from target area. However it is more probable that with 60 Km range and target being 35-40 Km from border, they never crossed the LoC.
  • The planes were detected and interceptors were dispatched, that is the reason the attack formation panicked and dropped of the weapon load in a hurry missing the target!
  • The Mig 21 that was shot lost was chasing the JF-17/Mirages that were part of Pakistan's strike package and was subjected to communication jamming as proven by the frantic calls of ground controller. That is why it lost situational awareness and was killed by the F-16
  • A Su-30 was most likely shot down too but since unlike India we are not in habit of presenting our "may be's" as "facts" i will leave it at that.
  • Once again, the Mirages were never shot at, they were not part of the interceptor package that came to fight of the Pakistani strike aircraft which calmly deployed their weapons at the intended targets, again as proven by video evidence.
 
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If you had complete situational awareness
Superior ew system
Superior awacs
Superior pilots
And your words 24 fighters v 8 Indian fighters. Which you rightly suggested was 2 mki 2 mirage 2000 and 4 mig21 bison did you really achieve much in this scenario

You had all the advantages
You killed a mig21 in your airspace.
That is it
Other claims of mki kill or f16 kill are not proven .

Did you make full.use of your so called superiority.
Again, illogical statements.. why you Indian gave us the chance to humiliate you again and again?
See if you were having 4 Migs and as per standard load out of one Mig must have 2xR-77 and 2xR-73, so in total 4 Mig-21s carried 8xR-77 and 8xR-73.
For 2 Mirage-2K, as those mirages were on CAP so they must be armed with MICA and Magic, Lets for example take as standard load out of 2xMica and 2xMagic for each Mirage, then there were 4xMica and 4xMagic for Mirage-2K pair.
Now come for MKI, as standard loadout for MKI on CAP must be 4xR-77 and 2xR-73 or 2xPython 5. Then total loadout for a pair of MKI must be 8xR-77 and 4xR-73 or Phython 5.

Now if you count all these missiles which can be used against 24 pakistani fighters would be 20 BVR and 16 WVR missile were at IAF disposal. But still they didnt engage despite they did dogded all AMRAAMs as per your claim? why?????
As your Asian Raptor have superior Radars second only to Radars of F-22 and F-35, and they can simultaneously target 4 jets... then at least by your definition your MKI pair can fire 8 R-77s on PAF fighters to deter them or on strike formation which were 4 Mirages and 2 JF-17s. So that your mirages can fire MICA BVR missiles on PAF fighters but none of your front line jets either Mirage or MKI fired a single missile.. leave aside your Bison. :p:

Second as per your another delusional theory that Abhi's Mig-21 shot down a F-16 with R-73 (which never happens), it means his Mig came close to F-16s less then 20 KM.
In the above scenario, very first question arises here that if he tracked the F-16s, then why he didnt fired his R-77 from safe distance while staying well inside IOK? Why he came close if he knew where the F-16s are and have full pic of air battle? because he didn't have any idea where he is going and what was going on in the air and during this blindness when he crossed LOC unknowingly he was hit by an AMRAAM fired by an F-16s which obviously Abhi didn't know what hit him and from which direction it came as there is no clue of dispensing Chaffs from his Mig-21......

Secondly, if Abhi came less then 20 KM to PAF fighters as per your claims then why your other super duper Mirage-2K and Asian Raptor stayed away from LOC????

So all your claims are full of bull shit and there are no consistency in your repeated claims...but you post again and again just to get slapped by other members... Kid go take a deep sleep and then come back.. may be it will ease your pain and you will be able to post some sensible stuff..
 
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Second as per your another delusional theory that Abhi's Mig-21 shot down a F-16 with R-73 (which never happens), it means his Mig came close to F-16s less then 20 KM.
In the above scenario, very first question arises here that if he tracked the F-16s, then why he didnt fired his R-77 from safe distance while staying well inside IOK? Why he came close if he knew where the F-16s are and have full pic of air battle? because he didn't have any idea where he is going and what was going on in the air and during this blindness when he crossed LOC unknowingly he was hit by an AMRAAM fired by an F-16s which obviously Abhi didn't know what hit him and from which direction it came as there is no clue of dispensing flares from his Mig-21......

Secondly, if Abhi came less then 20 KM to PAF fighters as per your claims then why your other super duper Mirage-2K and Asian Raptor stayed away from LOC????

The mig21 lost comms with Indian ground control and his awareness . The Indian stations warned both mirage and mki to avoid crossing line of control.
Both mki and mirage comms were not jammed. They had situation awareness from either cockpit radar sensor or
G.cc

The mig21bison had neither or Abhi ignored orders. Don't know not sure he was chasing a fleeing f16.

Still don't understand how you fired multiple amraam s ie 4 or 5 and missed them all.
Not waiting for lock on is basic failure in bvr combat. Panicking taking shots you are wasting precious resource bvr missles
 
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The mig21 lost comms with Indian ground control and his awareness . The Indian stations warned both mirage and mki to avoid crossing line of control.
Both mki and mirage comms were not jammed. They had situation awareness from either cockpit radar sensor or
G.cc

The mig21bison had neither or Abhi ignored orders. Don't know not sure he was chasing a fleeing f16.

Still don't understand how you fired multiple amraam s ie 4 or 5 and missed them all.
Not waiting for lock on is basic failure in bvr combat. Panicking taking shots you are wasting precious resource bvr missles
My questions were if Mig-21 tracked the F-16s then why your hero Abhi didn't fired a R-77??? and if Abhi lost communication and he didn't had any situational awareness, they how the hell he is tracking the fleeing F-16??? your stories are full of contradictions.

Every day an Indian came with a new story.... com on, these stories will not help you out to prove your lies as a fact. As of now in the whole world only Indian are trying hard to prove their stories and every time their stories were debunked by facts on ground.
Who told you that F-16s fired 4 or 5 AMRAAMs and they all missed their mark? Can you have any proof?
Are you sitting in the Cockpit of F-16s, that you are claiming that they fired the AMRAAM without lock? Are you dumb? how they fired AMRAAM without locking the target and without transferring data to AMRAAMs?
If their is no data for AMRAAMS, then how can those missiles travel towards MKI and why your MKI needed to dodged those AMRAAMs??
What a illogical and illiterate person you are???
Really talking with Indians is like trying teaching mathematics (Mechanics) to Arts students..

And as you are mentioning that Mirages and MKIs had full situational awareness and GCI stopped them to go near LOC, as i asked earlier, that why the heck they need to come closer to LOC, where as they were armed with BVR missiles and why they didn't fired BVR missiles from stand off ranges?

You know what is the issue here? The issue is all your claims are just stories and these stories have nothing to do with the reality and the facts.
The facts will always remains, that In the initial phase of strike, when your MKI started vectoring towards PAF package, then F-16s locked it and fired the AMRAAM, which later found its mark and MKI went down. Due to this loss, second MKI left the arena. Same with Mirages, when the couple of locks by Mirages were broke by JF-17s and in return JF-17s locked them, and they unable to break the lock, they simply fled from the scene and put an excuse of Radar Malfunctions...and after that when your state of the art jets refuse to take actions, then 5 Mig-21s were scrambled from Srinagar Airbase. And when they were adjusting their course, your GCI asked them to come back and at that time Abhi's comms were jammed and PAF (having full situation awarness) were waiting for Abhi to come over LOC. And as Abhi crossed LOC, an AMRAAM fired from one of F-16s hit the Mig-21. That is the full story which your armed forces knows very well.
But you people do not have courage to accept the reality.
 
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Balakot raid was by mirage2000 x 12 planes
They crossed 80 km into pak airspace bombed the camp and returned undetected
Your pilots radars and awacs did nothing .

The mig21 is India.s vintage fighter and we have 54 left. You shot him down as he engaged your fleeing f16 . He lost situation awareness in a hostile environment.

The mirage 2000 and su30mki did not lose situation swareness and avoided your multiple amraam shots


total load of crap.....

Pakistan showed the truth.. IAF could not even show any evidence.

Pakistan opens Balakot strike site to foreign journalists and envoys


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You had all the advantages


I agree..

PAF has world class fighter pilots

India has does not.

Seriously.... do you really think an Indian pilot can take on a PAF CCS class pilot and hope to win?.....
 
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reputation of the legendary USA fighter built up by superb USA and Israeli records


and PAF.. F-16s under PAF pilots have shot down Soviet, afgan, and indian jets

Mig-23
Su22
Mig-21
Su-30s

...... that is why Tiawan is buying F-16s... they all know it can bring down Su-30s
 
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If you want to impress us

You are impressed with us..

IAF became inactive after 27 Feb.. just like your army after Galwan ......and your leader ship from military to political made all sorts of excuses and lies to cover up the failure. ...

we really enjoyed it
 
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So balakot raid worked


not according to the international press... you didnt hit squat...


India refuses to share proof of strikes in Pakistan amid doubts of militant deaths




Satellite images show buildings still standing at Indian bombing site

 
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Really you Indians are dumb people. You can write what ever you can to reduce your shame... so that your media even your high ranking armed forces spokesmen done that as well just to escape from that shame which they took on 27th Feb. Last year.
Oh champion, the distance from LOC to Balakot is roughly 50 KM how cum your air force ingress 80 KM, like they crossed their target and reach even Swat and then turn back to IOK and then release stand off weapons????
OMG what type of stupid genius are you???
And despite your Mirage 2000 and Asian Raptor dogged so many AMRAAMs but still they didnt dare to intercept the PAF strike formations??? why?????
Kid by writing crap on this forum cant help you to erase your national shame... go do this practice on Indian forum where you will meet so many experts who will match even exceed your intellectual level.. :p: :p: :p:
hey genius weasel, your media itself reported killing killing crows in PAKISTANI territory. I couldn' believe you calling your own countrymen as crows-"or better su*rs"
You are impressed with us..

IAF became inactive after 27 Feb.. just like your army after Galwan ......and your leader ship from military to political made all sorts of excuses and lies to cover up the failure. ...

we really enjoyed it
yeah happy sleeping.
 
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The recent clash raised eyebrows since the MiG-21 is generally seen as outdated.

by David Axe

Key Point: These jets are old, but can still kill. Perhaps India was saving its best fighters or another day?

The Indian air force defended its decision to send old MiG-21 fighters up against much more modern Pakistani F-16s during recent aerial skirmishes.

On Feb. 26, 2019 Indian planes crossed the line of control at India's border with Pakistan and bombed what New Dehli described as a terrorist training camp near Balakot.

Several days of aerial fighting followed the bombing raid. On Feb. 27, 2019, Pakistani F-16s and other planes crossed the line of control to attack Indian forces, New Delhi claimed.

Indian MiG-21s and other fighters intercepted the Pakistanis and shot down one F-16, killing its pilot, according to the Indian government. Islamabad claimed its forces shot down two MiG-21s, but New Delhi copped to losing just one jet.

Pakistani forces captured the MiG-21 pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, and held him for two days before handing him over to Indian officials.

India's MiG-21s, while featuring some key upgrades, still are more than 30 years old. The Pakistani F-16 that the Indians shot down reportedly was a Block 52D model that Islamabad in 2005 ordered from the United States.

"The MiG-21 is in our inventory, why will we not use it?" Indian Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa rhetorically asked reporters when questioned about the aerial disparity.

To be fair, India in the 1990s upgraded its MiG-21s to the "Bison" standard with Western-style avionics, a new radar and radar warning receiver and compatibility with modern weapons. "[It] has got better weapons system, better air-to-air missiles," Dhanoa pointed out.

But the main reason India sent the MiG-21 into battle is that the type is still one of the most numerous in Indian air force service. "We fight with all the aircraft in our inventory," Dhanoa said.

Indeed, the aerial battle in which the MiG-21 and F-16 were shot down involved, on both sides, mixed formations of old and new fighters.

"The MiG-21 that was shot down on Feb. 27, 2019, was part of a formation of eight Indian fighters which included four Sukhoi 30s, two upgraded Mirage 2000s and two MiG-21 Bisons that were dispatched to engage a package of 24 [Pakistani air force] jets that included eight F-16s, four Mirage III aircraft, four JF-17 Thunders," David Cenciotti reported at The Aviationist.

India for years has been struggling to replace a large fleet of old, Russian-made warplanes. In 2018 the Indian air force operated 244 1960s-vintage MiG-21s and 84 MiG-27s that are only slightly younger.

The MiG-21s, in particular, are accident-prone. Since the first of 874 MiG-21s entered Indian service in 1963, around 490 have crashed, killing around 200 pilots.

New Delhi wants to spend around $18 billion building 115 new fighters to replace the old MiGs. The new planes would fly alongside European-designed Jaguars, French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, Russian MiG-29s and Su-30s, and India's own indigenous Tejas fighter in what Lockheed described as "the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem."

Competitors for the 115-plane purchase include an upgraded F-16 that Lockheed Martin calls the "F-21," Boeing's F/A-18E/F, the Rafale, the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E and the Russian MiG-35 and Su-35. Indian companies would assemble the new jets on license.

At the same time, Russia wants to sell to the Indians an upgrade package for New Delhi's Su-30s. The Su-30SM would benefit from many of the systems that manufacturer Sukhoi developed for the newer Su-35.

The complexity of acquisitions processes in New Delhi could force the Indian air force to operate for years or even decades longer a diverse mix of old and new fighters.

There's no reason this mixed force can't be effective in aerial combat, Cenciotti explained. An old fighter such as the MiG-21 can be deadly under the right circumstances.

Not always does the more modern and capable weapon system (in this case the PAF F-16) win. Several factors must be taken into consideration: pilot skills, support from other assets (including fighters and [airborne early warning] aircraft), ground radars, etc.

Above all, [rules of engagement] play an essential role: if the rules of engagement require a positive [visual identification] of the opponent, a fighter might be forced to come [within visual range] where a MiG-21 can be particularly threatening.

David Axe served as Defense Editor of the National Interest. He is the author of the graphic novels War Fix, War Is Boring and Machete Squad.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/r...aging-mig-21-jets-front-lines-pakistan-166940
I stopped reading at “The Pakistani F-16 that the Indians shot down reportedly was a Block 52D model”, because I know rest of article is filled with bull crap and wouldn’t waste my time. Hbu?
 
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