The Afghanistan - Pakistan boundary is not a border: Indian Lt Gen JFR Jacob

[Ahmad]

but what about the areas which this so called afghanistan of the past had???, some time ago the whole lot aghanistan of today belong to your iranian masters??, please put some light on this also. history always changes, the modern day iran, india, etc etc never were like that before. so please dont prove by history lessons that afghanistan in history was always one united country alone before. at some point afghanis were ruled by persia, thus there was no independent afghanistan some time ago.

one word to all those s.cumbags who say that nwfp is ours, we say to them, "son we have nukes, if you want it, come and get it" lol, thats why they even dont want it.

I think i shouldnt waste my time with you any further. And one last request to you, you need to learn more about the history of Khorasan, we are your neighbour and you at least need to have the basic information about us.

 

[Luftwaffe]

here you go...

In ancient times, the state of Gandhara occupied the Vale of Peshawar and adjoining areas. This kingdom was important because of its strategic location at the eastern end of the Khyber Pass. Gandhara was annexed by the Persian Achaemenian dynasty in the early 6th century bce and remained a Persian satrapy until 327 bce. The region then passed successively under Greek, Indo-Bactrian, Sakan, Parthian, and Kushan rule.

There this land was occupied time and again so why are afghanis claiming it? move on this land is free and freedom all over.

 

[TechLahore]

First off, why are you repeatedly mistyping Pakistan?

See below:

They allied themselves with the enemies of paksitan because paksitan

in paksitani forums even if they have got nothing to do with issues

who were based in Pakisan and others did the most horrible crimes,

There is certainly a negative view of the non pashtoons in Afghanistan among the pakistanis, you need to know that non pashtoons make up 60% of the country. Secondly,

I am not sure whether they make up 60, 50 or 45% of the country. There are surveys and then there are surveys. But that's not the point. I am not against non pashtun ethnicities in Afghanistan. And if you are projecting other people's opinions on to me, please know that I am not answerable for other people's views. Only my own.

when you talk about the Uzbeks allied with the Taliban, it is not the Uzbkes of AFganistan, they are from Uzbekistan. You can never see uzbeks, tajiks and certainly hazars among the taliban(although there are a few here and there which is totally negligible.)

I never said they were Uzbeks from Afghanistan. We were talking about ethnicities, not nationalities. So it doesn't matter whether they are Yuldeshev's Uzbeks or Uzbek natives from Afghanistan. They are Uzbeks nonetheless. My point was that my likes and dislikes are based on people's actions, not their ethnicity. I dislike Uzbeks, Arabs, Chechens, Caucasians (Americans, Australians etc.), Pakhtuns and Africans who are members of the Taliban/Alqaeda. It doesn't matter what their ethnicity is or which country they come from.

I also dislike violent thugs, rapists and drug dealers, whether they are Tajik, Uzbek or Hazara.

As far as i have seen, it is the non pashtoons who are taking all the hit in paksitani forums even if they have got nothing to do with

Really? Have you seen the discussions and celebrations on this board re the arrest of Mullah Baradar? Is he Tajik, Uzbek or Hazara? Pakhtun I believe... And what about BM, HM and their ba$tard followers. Do you not see them taking a hit here? Please be balanced in your conclusions.

Again, you are avoiding the real issue of Druand line, tell me who wants peice of your land and who dont want? do you ever get my point?

What are you saying? That it is the Pakhtuns as an ethnicity that want to revisit the Durand line? No. This is not true. There are certainly some Afghans, many of whom are Pakhtun, who hold this view. But they are in the minority and they do not represent the views of their entire ethnicity. You have examples of non Pakhtuns who are fine with the Durand line, you have examples of Pakhtuns who are completely satisfied with the Durand line. Then you have examples of both who are not. This is not an ethnic argument, it is a political one.

Eveybody who had weapon did the bad thing. Taliban did it, the mujahideen did it(NA is a part of the mujahideen) I cant understand why you just pick on one party? Hekmatyar did the most horrible

Of course the Taliban "did it". The point I am making is that there would have been no space for the Taliban had the Northern Alliance not raped and plundered the people of Kabul like they did. They may be less religiously maniacal, but they are not any better news than the Taliban in terms of their net-effect on society.

It is pure and simple fact that the people of Kabul welcomed the Taliban when they drove the Northern Alliance away. Now, it is another matter that the Taliban ended up being a bunch of swines... but this in no way makes the NA any better.

things and crimes, Sayaf, Haji Qadir of Nangarhar, the war lords from Qandahar and Helmand, the war Lords from South(Paktia and paktika), the so called NA, Mullah Nabi's men, and all the 7 groups who were based in Pakisan and others did the most horrible crimes, NA was one of them but not the only one. if you condemn one, you should condemn all of them.

Please go back to my earlier post. Did I not condemn all of them? Did I not abuse the Taliban? Why do you only see what you want to see?

By the way, it was Pakistan who created the NA and you shouldnt compain about it.

Very convenient. Yes, it was Pakistan alone that created the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, the communist party of Afghanistan and the corrupt royalists... it was Pakistan that planted all the poppy seeds in Afghanistan, that mined the fields and burnt the trees. It is Pakistan - in a nutshell - that is responsible for all the ills in Afghanistan. It's not as if the Afghans were in a dysfunctional political state prior to the Soviet invasion, or that a group of them invited the Soviets to enter Afghanistan, or that the Americans as per the admission of their own Sec of State, deliberately *baited* the Russians to invade, or that the CIA wanted to destroy the Russians in Afghanistan using the Afghans as foot soldiers... Yes. All of these other parts of history are imagined, and the only truth that lunges forth from the charred body of Afghanistan's recent history is that Pakistan created the Northern Alliance.

They allied themselves with the enemies of paksitan because paksitan helped their enemeis, they had to see somewhere to retaliate, as per drug and corruption, again, NA is not the only one,

Pakistan was home to Ahmed Shah for a long time. We invited Rabbani and others, who also lived in Peshawar. If the Afghans were infighting amongst themselves, we could not have possibly gone either way without being blamed for what you are blaming us for now. Fund Hekmatyar and have Ahmed Shah come at you. Fund Ahmed Shah and have Hekmatyar and Jalaluddin come at you. Then there was the crazed Dostum... where do you go? Instead of blaming Pakistan for supporting "their enemies" - who are by the way, their fellow Afghans - could they have not come to some sort of understanding within their own ranks... once again... as AFGHANS. Are they not responsible for the fitna within their own numbers?

And let me tell you... the analogy of the NA allying with India is not the same as Pakistan helping some resistance groups over others. That would be the equivalent of Pakistan helping the Soviets - an external power - crush Afghanistan. Once again, please be fair.

everybody was/is involved in corruption. Isnt your country suffering from corruption? arent your presidents, prime ministers, other officials, ministers corrupt? so why only talk about afghanistan and forget your own country?

The Gov. of Illinois sold a senate seat. Clinton 'misused' the Oval Office. Cheney, as VP, awarded questionable multi billion $ contracts to his former employer. Zardari is likely involved in tons of financial corruption. But there are degrees to everything. Do you seriously believe that even the worst corruption in Pakistan in any way rivals what has been going on in Afghanistan? I don't want to get into this corruption competition with you, but I find it astounding that you are so conveniently shifting attention and blame for EVERYTHING on to others. Do the Afghans have ANY role and ANY responsibility for what has happened in Afghanistan?

And lastely, lets stick to durand line . You should know that NA is on your side in this particular issue.

Good. I never said otherwise. But because they are on Pakistan's side on one issue, it doesn't mean that changes my opinion regarding the NA. Net-net, the Durand line is here to stay and whether the NA, Taliban or someone else comes to power in Afghanistan, nothing is going to change this. That was my original point in this thread.

 

[Abi]

You wish. But it won't happen. What will happen is that Indian influence in Afghanistan will dissipate, western troops will depart in the near future and the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan by far, the Pashtuns, will dictate Afghanistan's future. The NA thugs currently in power will be marginalized if not lynched. Wait and see.

The pashtuns are the majority, but the Tajiks constitute the majority of the politicians, businessmen, university students, university professors, and IIRC, the army and police is largely made up of Tajiks. They have always been the dominant ethnic group and will always be the dominant ethnic group.

I do not see why Pakistanis have a dislike for the NA when it is the Taliban that has given Pakistan problems and not the other way around. It is the Pashtuns that are setting off bombs daily in Pakistan.

It is also some Pashtuns who would like to take land from Pakistan.

Tajiks have enough Pashtuns in Afghanistan to deal with, why do Pakistanis think they want more Pashtuns from Pakistan? I have never come across a non Pashtun Afghan who would like to take land from Pakistan, but i have come across non Pashtun Afghans who wouldn't mind giving away the Pashtun dominated areas of Afghanistan lol. They have suffered a lot under Pashtuns.

 

[TechLahore]

The pashtuns are the majority, but the Tajiks constitute the majority of the politicians, businessmen, university students, university professors, and IIRC, the army and police is largely made up of Tajiks. They have always been the dominant ethnic group and will always be the dominant ethnic group.

Let's see...

I do not see why Pakistanis have a dislike for the NA when it is the Taliban that has given Pakistan problems and not the other way around. It is the Pashtuns that are setting off bombs daily in Pakistan.

The Northern Alliance is conspiring with the enemies of Pakistan to harm Pakistan's legitimate interests in the region. The bombs might be set off by Pashtuns, Greeks or Ostriches for that matter, but the planning and the funding is coming from sanctuaries (aka 'consulates') within Afghanistan that have been established in collusion with the NA.

It is also some Pashtuns who would like to take land from Pakistan.

And some Pakhtuns in Pakistan would like all of Afghanistan to become part of greater Pakistan. This is all trivial silliness. The Durand line is the border. Bluster and rhetoric do not reality make.

from Pakistan, but i have come across non Pashtun Afghans who wouldn't mind giving away the Pashtun dominated areas of Afghanistan lol. They have suffered a lot under Pashtuns.

That's a first! Let the Government of Afghanistan make that proposal and I'm sure the GoP will "look into it"

 

[ajpirzada]

^^ well according to this follwing news, we have established gud contacts with NA

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...9879-pakistan-us-agree-new-afghan-set-up.html

 

[Hammy007]

Abi, the reason why iranians support the non pushtuns in afghanistan is the same reason why pakistan supports pushtuns in afghanistan.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

I dont think non-pashtun Afghanis would want NWFP and FATA to be annexed to Afghanistan because that would mean more than twice the number of Pashtuns will become part of Afghanistan, and the persian speaking Afghanis will be a small minority and they dont want that.

I am leaning towards the persian speaking Afghanis now after learning more about them

It is nice to see that people have started to change their opinions on this matter...

According to CIA - THE WORLD FACT BOOK... Afghanistan population is 28,395,716 (July 2009 est.) out of which 42% are Pashtuns and 16,469,515 are Non-Pashtuns

42% of 28,395,716 = 11926200 Pashtuns

Pakistan's population is 174,578,558 (July 2009 est.) out of which 15.42% are Pashtuns or 26920013

Now add Pakistani Pashtuns + Afghan Pashtuns = 38846214

To that Add 16,469,515 Non-Pashtuns of Afghanistan and we get = 55,315,730... Now divide Non-Pashtun Population by the Total Pashtun Population and we get 29% Non-pashtuns.

I am sure Non-Pashtuns would never love to see their numbers reduced from 58% to 29% ...

 

[jinxeD_girl]

It might be one of the reasons, but there are other reasons as well, why on earth we should want to take other people's land? Khorasan(today afghanistan) lost its territory not only to the british, but also to the russians during the time of cruel king amir abudul rahman khan. they lost NWFP to the british as well as rich moutanouse region of Badakhshan, Big pamir and Panjdeh to russia(today bigger pamir belongs to tajikistan and panjdeh to turkmenistan), these areas are all persian speaking areas and the land of Tajiks, they belonged to Khorasan(today afghanistan), but Tajiks of Afghanistan have never ever so far said a word to take back those territories. Tajiks dont want Pashtoon NWFP from Pakisan and at the same time they dont want persian(Tajik) Bigger Pamir and Panj Deh from Tajikistan either.

Oh my God.. Ahmad! What have you done! You just called Afghanistan - Khorasan! I am hoping none of the Afghan Pashtuns are reading this, otherwise they will murder you for calling Afghanistan the Khorasan.. !

I remember how some Tajik called Afghanistan - Khorasan and what happened to him

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Yet there is a very small minority of Pashtuns who don't want to be either with Afghanistan or Pakistan and want Pashtunistan.. I don't know how Balochistan is considered part of Pashtunistan.. I wish some Afghan Pashtun could explain that to me...

http://img27.imageshack.us/i/2007pashtunistan2.jpg/

 

[RobbieS]

@the article- Though a war hero, Gen. Jacob has been out of action for a long time and it seems like he has been out of touch with reality and history as well. Hence the ill timed article. I don't think his word carries a lot of weight age in Indian political and defense circle and hope the article isn't taken seriously by anybody.

 

[Ahmad]

Oh my God.. Ahmad! What have you done! You just called Afghanistan - Khorasan! I am hoping none of the Afghan Pashtuns are reading this, otherwise they will murder you for calling Afghanistan the Khorasan.. !

I remember how some Tajik called Afghanistan - Khorasan and what happened to him

LoL . No i didnt call it khorasan, but in those days it was khorasan and not Afghanistan. People's nationality in those days were khorasani and not Afghan. The term Afghanisan applied to the country as a whole during the british time in india, there are some historians who think that the british did this intentionally by putting this name or facilitate to bring this name to hurt the national unity, because khorasan was a name which applied to everybody, hence a unifying factor. and if we say Abo Ali Sina and Rumi were afghans, it is totally wrong, because their country and nationality were Khorasan and Khorasani, not Afghanistan and Afghan. almost all our briliant history goes to Khorsan time not the Present day Afghanistan. We also shouldnt forget that Mahmoud Ghaznavi, Even Ahmad Shah Abdali had their nationality as Khorasani and not Afghan.

 

[Ahmad]

Abi, the reason why iranians support the non pushtuns in afghanistan is the same reason why pakistan supports pushtuns in afghanistan.

And there is a difference as well, Tajiks and others dont want Iran's peice of land, but pashtoons want Pakistan's peice of land.

 

[Ahmad]

Yet there is a very small minority of Pashtuns who don't want to be either with Afghanistan or Pakistan and want Pashtunistan.. I don't know how Balochistan is considered part of Pashtunistan.. I wish some Afghan Pashtun could explain that to me...

http://img27.imageshack.us/i/2007pashtunistan2.jpg/

Well, it is because of ethno nationalism. since some pashtoons also live in Balouchistan, thats why. Ethno nationalism is one of the main causes of alot of problems.

 

[Abi]

Abi, the reason why iranians support the non pushtuns in afghanistan is the same reason why pakistan supports pushtuns in afghanistan.

Why is that? You do know that Pashtuns are Iranic peoples as well, right?

Iran supports all Afghans regardless of ethnicity. We supported the NA (who are non Pashtuns) not so that they can fight Pashtuns, but so that they can defend themselves from the Wahhabi Taliban (who are mostly Pashtuns) who wanted to turn Afghanistan into a country from the 14th century.