@Joe Shearer
I dont know what secular section you are talking about?
The sections that don't want the bellicose posturing of the Sangh Parivar and want to lead peaceful lives without the injection of religion into politics. The ones who have voted for non-communal agendas, based on development, rather than on divisive issues related to religion.
Did I ever mention sangh parivar anywhere in my post ... now tell me which party or a political figure is true secular in real terms ?
None. You forget, or you don't pay much attention: my reference was to sections of society, not political parties. There are sections of people - all those who have risen up in revolt against the nauseating corruption of ALL political parties, for example - outside political parties who have these correctly held views.
Originally Posted by utraash
Pro muslim or pro minority is the only criteria of these secular section ....
You are entitled to your opinion. That is all that it is, your personal opinion. I might happen to define it as those who want nothing to do with religion in public life.
Originally Posted by utraash
Again we are dividing ourself on the line of minority majority which is basically nothing but relegion wise.. Is religion matter so much to us that its above the Law or constitution of India ? i think no.
It is you and your fellows of the Sangh Parivar who are dividing India on the lines of minority or majority. Your turning the situation around is ironic. If religion was not so much to you that it was above the law or the Constitution of India, neither would the leaders of the BJP, the VHP and other front organisations have agitated for the destruction of the Babri Masjid, and, contrary to their commitments, demolished it, nor would Narendra Modi have violated his oath of loyalty to the constitution and egged on majority community hoodlums to assault the minority.
Again you are counting name of sangh parivar nhp bjp .... i never mentioned those in my previous post but I think you also follow the trend of indian secularism where until you dont crticize the sangh vhp bjp you will not hold secular status..... As per my view I am dead against any violence or any loss which is precisely done on the line of religion, cast, race...etc... when you raise issue of Babri masjid or you miserably failed to highlight the issues of Kashmiri pandits where hindu are in minority.... So I would say sir, every issues has to be seen from same eye...... though both the act are shameful for our democracy which failed to protect indians not minority or majorrity ....
Modi role in Gujraat is also being investigated under Supreme court directions so you dont need to jump on conclusion & you cannot define laws or constitution better than supreme court.
For starters, there was a direct link to the Babri Masjid incident and the incidents in Gujarat. The people who were killed in the train fire were kar sevaks who had gone to the Babri Masjid site to participate in commemorative rituals, members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. Killing them was a crime. The point here is that it is part of a series of reciprocal crimes started by the original crime of destruction of a protected building under litigation.
I have always condemned the expulsion under threat and intimidation of the Kashmiri Pandits. I have condemned the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza as well; should I have brought that in here? Was that relevant, any more than the treatment of Kashmiri Pandits is relevant to a discussion on Modi's performance as Chief Minister and the events of 2002?
Your bringing in the Kashmiri Pandits is a typical and familiar Sangh Parivar manoeuvre, known among debaters and logicians as the 'tu quoque' argument. In case you don't know what that is, it is the argument of saying that even if you have committed a crime, or the person you are defending has committed a crime, some other person has also committed a crime, so somehow that makes it all right for the first crime to have been committed. If there were crimes in Gujarat, there were also crimes in Kashmir, so that's all right, the crimes in Gujarat are excused somehow.
Crimes against the minority are always crimes against the minority, and are in themselves no way worse than, for that matter, crimes against the majority. What is to the point is that I have protested crimes against the majority also, for instance, the crimes committed in Kolkata by the Muslim community in driving out unpopular or uncooperative journalists because they wrote articles that the Muslim clergy found offensive.
Originally Posted by utraash
True meaning of secular will be no division on basis race cast relegion or etc.......
True. That you know it and you don't practise it points to your outstanding hypocrisy.
same thing is also applied for your hollow secularism sir?
How? Just by your repeating the words I have used? You keep referring to your not meaning to differentiate between religious communities, but every word, every example is taken from the vocabulary of the Sangh Parivar. They compare the destruction of the Babri Masjid to the expulsion of the Pandits; so do you. They assume that all secularists are Congress supporters; so do you.
Why is your knowing the technical definition of secularism and not practising it comparable to my actions? And why is it that you call it hollow? Is that a justification? My secularism says that Muslims should not be killed because they are Muslim, in fact, my adherence to the rule of law and to the freedom of speech say that people should not be killed in riots, and that they should not be killed for something that they have said.
How is this stand hypocritical? How is it equivalent to yours?
Originally Posted by utraash
But those So called Secular people are only creating division.
Are you making sense? Those who talk about teaching the minority a lesson so that they will never make the same mistake again, those who hold public rallies inciting violence and hatred, those who doctor textbooks in states ruled by them, exactly as Pakistan does, rather than acknowledge that these are the villains, you actually say 'secular' people are creating divisions?
When secularism means opposition to any expression of religion in public life, how is this possible?
We never heard those secular people since we live out of this world.... secularism would have never in our dictionary if division were not made.....
Would you like to explain the meaning of this incoherent statement?
Have you never heard or read about people who refer to teaching the minority - Muslims, to be blunt - a lesson, so that they will never make the same mistake again? Would you like me to cite samples from this very thread, or the parallel thread?
And what is the logic of saying that secularism would never have been in your dictionary is division were not made? Secularism is in our dictionaries precisely because divisions exist, and it is a concept that wars against divisive thinking.
Originally Posted by utraash
if at all I have to say on minority, muslim are not in minority anymore the real minorities are sikhs bhuddhist, christians, jain & many other ...
How are Muslims not a minority? Are they more than 50% of the population?Do you even understand what you are writing?
if 15-20 crores people are in minority then who will not be in minority .....?
Do you understand what is a minority? Let me refer you to a dictionary:
A minority is a sociological category within a demographic. Rather than a relational "social group", as the term would indicate, the term refers to a category that is differentiated and defined by the social majority, that is, those who hold the majority of positions of social power in a society. The differentiation can be based on one or more observable human characteristics, including, for example, ethnicity, race, gender, wealth or sexual orientation. .... <omitted> In the social sciences, the term "minority" is used to refer to categories of persons who hold few positions of social power.
Originally Posted by utraash
So did you ever check that as per your Secular sections has anything to say about real minority issues or issues of majority?
Can you define real minority issues, or issues of majority?
surely i cant because you are in elite group of taking care of minority sir...
And what does that mean? You make a reference to 'real minority issues', and 'issues of majority'; I ask you what you mean, and the only lame answer you can come out with is that you don't know, because I am doing something or the other wholly fictitious?
Originally Posted by utraash
This has become a trend in this country If anyone says anything against muslim then he will be declared anti minority
Is that not literally true?
In what way is this a trend? I have spoken against Muslim activities in Bengal, and in Kashmir. Nobody even dreamt of calling me anti-minority!
okay if i say absurd things to other religion there wont be much shouting but if i say small thing about muslim I wll be tagged anti minority as you are trying to hint......I am not against Muslim even in my own family my sis in law is from same religion..
I am not a man of any religion either but I hate pseudo secularist almost like enemy of my country & country is first to me not my religion .....
Please can you not come out with that usual justification of bigotry,"Some of my best friends are Jews!" (or Negroes, or, in your case, Muslims). That is really pathetic.
You may or may not hate pseudo-secularist (another Sangh Parivar term; for someone who has carefully not used BJP, VHP, RSS or Sangh Parivar in his writing, you seem to use a lot of their favourite terms, and your vocabulary seems to be wholly borrowed from theirs); that is not relevant here, when we are discussing Narendra Modi. If by pseudo-secularist, you are referring to the charge that the Congress Party tries to attract Muslim votes by preaching secularism but pandering to them, let me remind you that I oppose, and have opposed the Congress for longer than you have lived. Let me also explain that I am opposed to Gandhi for the precise reason that he brought religion into politics, an act that he was warned against by a much wiser and far more secular man, and that this religion-tinctured secularism is what the Congress practises, whereas secularism is to me the expulsion of religion from public affairs.
With due respect, thnx for your responses. now i m unable to argue with u sir. ur big lines does not make any difference as you put a glass of religion(minority) or I may be too weak to understand ur views .......
May be we dont have vast exp. as you have but people of ur views are in majority and we shold be forgiven to have our views in minority...................................