Tectonic Shifts in Turkey's domestic and Foreign policies: How did it come to this?

[T-123456]

Collectively you are really good at provoking people , people also need sleep you know, i cannot 24/7 be online answer your questions. The BASTARD speaker %90 correct but also he says US is ally of Turkey, downgrading US-Turkey relationships are Turkish state policy, there isnt any actual reason for Turkish people to hate US. "BULLSHIT!". He filters Turkey as we are already an official Islamic sharia state. He gathered whatever negative he could (many of them correct).

He admitted that the US supported some coups in Turkiye and he explained the hate for the US,explicitly.
He didnt say its a Sharia state,he said its going in that direction.
Nobody claims that he is 100% right,he is looking at it from the US standpoint.

@T-123456 and @Saithan you must be geniuses, from a single comment written in most general sense with minimal detail so it isnt have to include entire analysis of a whole hour video you deduced i cant answer those things that has been asked. Bravo, respect.

What more details have you given in your post?

 

[BARS]

What more details have you given in your post?

What you people wanting from me to write every word he said which i dont agree and put a time stamp on them. That is not gonna happen. Instead of "He cant" you can say "He wont".

 

[-SINAN-]

He meant to say that now,you see them everywhere,women in Burqas 5 steps behind their husbands.
The PR thing,he meant modern women in government positions.
Its never 100% true mate but overal,he is right.

I think, that's not what he said...i will watch it again.

 

[SouI]

Erdogan should be the last sign of indoctrination of any kind of ideology in our politics.

We cannot afford to keep running indoctrinated presidents (regardless of the type of the ideology) any more when we are moving deeper into the space age and as a result every new government will have more political, economical and technological tools in their disposal to use to stay in power.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Thats not what he said.

No, sorry but what I gave was a accurate abbreviation of his speech. My verbal comprehension is fairly good.

He explained the past role of the military in Turkiye.

Yes, indeed he explained the past role of the military but his tone and suggestion was in support of the military dictatorships and suggested that unlike anywhere else in Turkey the dictatorships helped nuture liberal democracy.

The military had no power to be succesful,he explained why.

He said, now under the Erdogan government the military has lost it power to launch coups as Erdogan had purged the military. In addition he has set up his own police force and his own 'army within the army'.

In summary what he is saying is military rule traditionally in Turkey was benign. On every occasion the miltary went back to barracks leaving a better dispensation behind them with a slow evolution toward a liberal democracy taking place.

On the contrary he is saying Erdogan has used the power of votes to set up a authoritarian regime. He also makes comparisons between Erdogan and Hitler. He then is suggesting that he has divided society along secular/conservative, Sunni/Alevi, Kurd/Turk divides and risks tearing Turkey apart.

Essentially the guy looks back starry eyed to the days when the elite (less than 10%) of the highly educated Turks living primarily in large urban centres on the western seaboard of Anatolia in tandem with the secular military elite ruled rest of the ignorant mass of Turkish rural peasantry living in the huge central plateux of the Anatolian Turkey but then lost that power to the present order post 2000.

Now this dispicable , scheming but charasmatic authoritarian creature called Erdogan has come along and harvested the votes of all those ignorant peasants who have now moved in mass numbers into the urban centres of Turkey. He has built massive new housing estates and given them keys and in doing so reduced slums at the same time bought their votes.

I am not a expert on Turkish politics and am rather neutral to the going ons inside Turkey but this guy was just sheding tears and crying that the coup last year failed. Now that it has failed there is nothing in the way of the new 'Sultan' of Turkey ruling by illegal means till 1929.


This how I understood the long speach by this guy. This was predictable given that his audience was American and like I said he was playing to the American gallery.

*Oh also that Turkey has slid into a Islamic hell hole with women being pushed into waering Hijabs and walking behind their husbands. Female rights have been taken away and Turkey is now fast approaching Saudia Arabia - he showed this stupd chart where he had used various metrics to chart out his case. He also went on to explain that the next survey coming out in 2019 will be even worse. Frankly no offense to you guy's I was not impressed by his his intelligence or his ability to articulate.

And if I was to sum it up with one word this guy's long ramble I would uses the word 'sour grapes' and visualize it thus -

 

[T-123456]

On the contrary he is saying Erdogan has used the power of votes to set up a authoritarian regime. He also makes comparisons between Erdogan and Hitler. He then is suggesting that he has divided society along secular/conservative, Sunni/Alevi, Kurd/Turk divides and risks tearing Turkey apart.

What is not true about this?
Do you really know whats going on in my country?
I dont think so.

I am not a expert on Turkish politics and am rather neutral to the going ons inside Turkey

Yes,you are right.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What is not true about this?

Did I say it was 'truth' or not? I made a comment of what he said. Whether it is true or not you can decide - I am pretty sure this will be contested inside Turkey like most things. Truth does not come packaged. What is your 'truth' might not be the other guy's 'truth'. Erdogan's 'truth' must be having some traction. I just checked to see how many Turks voted for AKP. The figure is a staggering 23 million. That means 23 million Turks made a mistake and of course are ignorant of what the truth is? You need to educate those guy's about the real truth and nothing but the truth about Erdogan, not me. I am not even a Turkish voter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_November_2015

 

[T-123456]

Did I say it was 'truth' or not? I made a comment of what he said. Whether it is true or not you can decide - I am pretty sure this will be contested inside Turkey like most things. Truth does not come packaged. What is your 'truth' might not be the other guy's 'truth'. Erdogan's 'truth' must be having some traction. I just checked to see how many Turks voted for AKP. The figure is a staggering 23 million. That means 23 million Turks made a mistake and of course are ignorant of what the truth is? You need to educate those guy's about the real truth and nothing but the truth about Erdogan, not me. I am not even a Turkish voter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_November_2015

Well the guy has charisma,he can fool the best of us,the opposition lacks presence.
The 23 million voting for him doesnt mean that they are all ignorant,for them he was the best choice.
Turkish people are emotional,give them an enemy,a bridge or two,a new tunnel and you have their votes,the rest doesnt count.

 

[SouI]

Did I say it was 'truth' or not? I made a comment of what he said. Whether it is true or not you can decide - I am pretty sure this will be contested inside Turkey like most things. Truth does not come packaged. What is your 'truth' might not be the other guy's 'truth'. Erdogan's 'truth' must be having some traction. I just checked to see how many Turks voted for AKP. The figure is a staggering 23 million. That means 23 million Turks made a mistake and of course are ignorant of what the truth is? You need to educate those guy's about the real truth and nothing but the truth about Erdogan, not me. I am not even a Turkish voter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_November_2015

Statistics on party followers have been revealed before mainly solely about education and wealth levels.

I am on mobile right now, but it said almost every follower of CHP is either a university or college graduate, followers of MHP almost solely either college or primary school graduate, followers of AKP almost solely are either primary school graduate or no education, followers of HDP are majority with no education whatsoever.

There was this kind of a "deathly crystal clear" distinction from the results of such analysis.

And it was also backed by income levels as well.

CHP follower were the most wealthy part of the population followed by MHP, AKP and HDP.

Now please, from a neutral POV, tell me which part of this population would be likelier to know more and better and which ones would be not.


Thanks in advance.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Now please, from a neutral POV, tell me which part of this population would be likelier to know more and better and which ones would be not.

The answer is the educated of course. However it does not follow that the educated always follow the correct path - whatever that might be because in real life choices are made with interests in mind. For example just because I am educated does not mean I want to pay extra taxes. Or that those taxes should be invested in poor regions. I might want those resources invested in my area or vote for a party that secures the interests of my social class.

If we accepted as a presumption that the educated elite will come out with what is 'best' then we would be better ran by a elite class of meritocrats. United States is one of the most educated societies on earth but you will get the right wing Republic party of the rich elite pushing for more guns as a answer to gun crime. Or against universal state health care. That is example of the most educated and well off coming out with policies that are class driven and are not by definition the best.

I make these observations beyond Turkey because the basic principles apply everywhere. Erdogan has however done something more profound then any other leader in Turkey with the possible exception of Kemal Ataturk - he has overseen the greatest economic transition ever seen in Turkey and lifted more out of poverty then under any party in Turkey. Correct me if I am wrong there? And in doing so has set society toward progress and real democracy . Real dmocracy is not about counting votes but means the diffusion of wealth leading to economic democracy which in the long term will nurture a large middle class which is the anchor that stabilizes any society.

 

[SouI]

Correct me if I am wrong there?

He did, but not because he was the one doing all the things he did.

His government just followed the list of things they should do given by IMF. He says "we just ripped that paper apart", but still all he did was following all those steps one by one.

And many countries' economies during that period trippled. It didn't happen in Turkey because Erdogan was there or because they followed IMF advices to the letter. Those advices were there to instruct just how the government could liberalize the economy further, and that is it.

All that mirracle happened because FED lowered their interest rates down to zero, and all of a sudden the world is drown in cheap credit all around, until it exploded 2008.

And now after enforcing stricter monetary policies, Turkey's growth rates dropped like a hot potato. GDP per capita is actually going down now.

Growth rates are too low that it is not even enough to keep the already high unemployment rate stable.

So as you see we have anecdotal evidence that the "miracle" was not Erdogan or his party or the IMF economic policies they followed.

It was just American central bank doing its thing.

 

[T-123456]

He did, but not because he was the one doing all the things he did.

His government just followed the list of things they should do given by IMF. He says "we just ripped that paper apart", but still all he did was following all those steps one by one.

And many countries' economies during that period trippled. It didn't happen in Turkey because Erdogan was there or because they followed IMF advices to the letter. Those advices were there to instruct just how the government could liberalize the economy further, and that is it.

All that mirracle happened because FED lowered their interest rates down to zero, and all of a sudden the world is drown in cheap credit all around, until it exploded 2008.

And now after enforcing stricter monetary policies, Turkey's growth rates dropped like a hot potato. GDP per capita is actually going down now.

Growth rates are too low that it is not even enough to keep the already high unemployment rate stable.

So as you see we have anecdotal evidence that the "miracle" was not Erdogan or his party or the IMF economic policies they followed.

It was just American central bank doing its thing.

And not to forget the short term loans our economy depends on.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

He did, but not because he was the one doing all the things he did.

Well, I won't get involved in what is a Turkish internal matter. However often heroes are made because they are there at the right time and right place. I guess for his supporters he is that.

Anyway I hope the best for Turkey which ever party rules the country.

 

[Saithan]

After Bars comments some pretty decent discussion put on the table. Great insight ppl.

It's important to point out that everyone seems to agree that the video containes a lot of information that we consider true. And the remaining percentage isn't true, but expectations for how Turkey will develop.

I most certainly agree that there is a lack of presence in Turkish politics, and since the media doesn't give equal amount of time to all parties to promote their politics, it's biased. RTE pretty much dictates the medias behavior.

Just like how Trump has started to slander with "fake news". I think Turkey's democracy and it's institutions have been undermined, just like how Trump is pretty much trying to undermine the courts. Unlike Trump, RTE is hellbent on ruling.

The strong figures that I had some expectations of who could have done something if they had separated themselves sooner from RTE was davutoglu, güloglu, babacan and the energy minister.

I have no idea of what has happened since they became "toothless" so to speak. But it would not surprise me if they were under tremendous pressure to not stand out. Maybe even blackmailed into submission.

I don't know where T.C. is heading, all I know is that RTE needs to go because he's been a disaster ever since he started on his Syria policy and vendetta against fetö. In his fanatic drive he's burning many bridges for Turkey, and all the politicians suporting him will forever be a stain on the republic.

 

[xenon54 out]

The strong figures that I had some expectations of who could have done something if they had separated themselves sooner from RTE was davutoglu, güloglu, babacan and the energy minister.

Turkey is under one man rule, the govermental institutions and ministers dont have much value anymore, all are being dictated by Edogan, the most obvious indicator of this is resignation of Davutoglu, whether he was doing his job good or not one thing is for sure he didnt resign because he wanted.

And before someone comes up with ''he was gülenist'' if thats so then why is he enjoying his retirement instead of being jailed?
Not everything can be excused with fetö.