Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[The Diplomat]

There is no 5 generation fighter available to us with mature , flying expirence at the moment ?
Thus , we can't wait more 5 years as flying ducks to IAFs sukhois ?
We need at least 2 sqdrns of potent super fighters like SU-35s to fill the gap & cross this time zone ?
& always remember SU-35s are 4+++ generation fighters which has the capability to be upgraded as 5 th generation fighters ?
Our air chief is due to Moscow , let's see what song he sung there ?

Lets hope for the best, what ever our chief will do will be for the best.

 

[Leviza]

Su-35 is a 4.5 gen fighter just like Rafael, EF2000, j-10c, F-16 BLk61, F-15S/SA.I/K super hornet etc.

F-16 blk52+, Su-30MKI, Su-30MKK, F-2 are all 4+ gen fighters

JF-17, Mirage 2000-09, F-16MLU/blk50/52, j-10a, FA-50 are more or less considered 4th gen fighters

You didnt mentioned LCA ? its 10+ generation and might fly some day

 

[batmannow]

You didnt mentioned LCA ? its 10+ generation and might fly some day

Yes on the judgment day ?lolzz

 

[Great Sachin]

Still dreaming about SU35 .....wake up guys it is JF17 not SU35

 

[CHI RULES]

Its been stated a million times that , China won't sell any thing , walks or talks like J-11s to anyone ,so pls stop speculation about it ?
Its either , SU-35s or nothing !

Sir there is no solid proof that China has any restrictions regarding selling J11s to Pak other buyers. The only restrictions are perhaps on Pak side regarding costs and availability of jets as so far the latest variants of J11 are not even enough to fulfill Chinese domestic requirements.
Further off course WS-13 engines are also so far not available in large numbers.

 

[The Diplomat]

Still dreaming about SU35 .....wake up guys it is JF17 not SU35

Come on, Indian propaganda...
Today Indian news channel report: Pakistan Naval Sub shoots torpedoes at wooden Indian fishing boat and they survive, not only that but the people on the vessel don't get hurt? Right... Whats up with that?

 

[Great Sachin]

Come on, Indian propaganda...
Today Indian news channel report: Pakistan Naval Sub shoots torpedoes at wooden Indian fishing boat and they survive, not only that but the people on the vessel don't get hurt? Right... Whats up with that?

Chini torpedo...fusss

 

[The Diplomat]

Chini torpedo...fusss

It's officially true, India has a Pakistan obsession, it just can't live with out interfering with Pakistan...

 

[abdulbarijan]

Is there any update on the SU 35 sale to Pakistan? I am deeply excited, this will be the first 5th generation aircraft of PAF.

This generation stuff is pretty confusing

Lets get this generation stuff out of the way, cuz most of the time I see posts seeking explanation to the generations ... there is no "set" generation standard -- even the standards coming from the west employ different classifications ...

This is precisely the reason you have members juggling with whats the difference in between 4+/ 4++ and 4.5 generation fighters. The answer is these are two different classifications entirely ... The best thing to do is be simple about it ...

So here is the classification mostly used at this forum ... you have

-1st generation (includes fighters from the mid 1940's typically subsonic platforms like the F-86 or Mig-17's)
-2nd generation (includes fighters from the mid 50's to the early 60's which were supersonic such as the F-104 star fighter)
-3rd generation (includes the early multi role fighters from the mid 60's to the early 70's like the F-4)
-4th generation (includes multir-role fighters from yesterday's era like the F-16, Mirage 2000 etc.)
-4.5 generation (includes upgraded 4th fighters, which have some of the capabilities from 5th gen fighters, like reduced RCS's, sensor fusion, you have super cruise, advanced avionics, EW systems etc.)
-5th generation ( includes stealth platforms like the F-35, J-31, F-22,Pak-FA, J-20 etc.)

However the Chinese classification is a generation behind ... so if they are calling JF-17 a 3rd generation aircraft, it translates in to JF-17 being a 4th generation aircraft. Similarly they have the 4S standard for their 4th generation fighters (5th generation in western classification) ....

 

[silent hawk]

Lets get this generation stuff out of the way, cuz most of the time I see posts seeking explanation to the generations ... there is no "set" generation standard -- even the standards coming from the west employ different classifications ...

This is precisely the reason you have members juggling with whats the difference in between 4+/ 4++ and 4.5 generation fighters. The answer is these are two different classifications entirely ... The best thing to do is be simple about it ...

So here is the classification mostly used at this forum ... you have

-1st generation (includes fighters from the mid 1940's typically subsonic platforms like the F-86 or Mig-17's)
-2nd generation (includes fighters from the mid 50's to the early 60's which were supersonic such as the F-104 star fighter)
-3rd generation (includes the early multi role fighters from the mid 60's to the early 70's like the F-4)
-4th generation (includes multir-role fighters from yesterday's era like the F-16, Mirage 2000 etc.)
-4.5 generation (includes upgraded 4th fighters, which have some of the capabilities from 5th gen fighters, like reduced RCS's, sensor fusion, you have super cruise, advanced avionics, EW systems etc.)
-5th generation ( includes stealth platforms like the F-35, J-31, F-22,Pak-FA, J-20 etc.)

However the Chinese classification is a generation behind ... so if they are calling JF-17 a 3rd generation aircraft, it translates in to JF-17 being a 4th generation aircraft. Similarly they have the 4S standard for their 4th generation fighters (5th generation in western classification) ....

I was taught that the generation wise classification should be done based on Aerospace , Avionics and armament components. Hence JF-17 is third gen aerospace with 4th gen Avionics and 4th gen Aerospace.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I was taught that the generation wise classification should be done based on Aerospace , Avionics and armament components. Hence JF-17 is third gen aerospace with 4th gen Avionics and 4th gen Aerospace.

I think you should refer to the JFT info pool thread ... @Manticore has done beyond an excellent job of compiling information about the aircraft -- which would surely convince you or anybody else for that matter, that JFT is a 4th generation platform .... One could go in to details as to why ... but to put it in the most simplest way possible, it offers alot more then the 4th generation F-16 A/B, infact one could even make a case for it being a tad bit better then the early C/D models minus the range & payload ... but I guess you get the point ...

Sometimes the cause of confusion, is that, there are platforms that are upgraded ... like the Mig-21 of the IAF, technically would fall under the 2nd generation aircraft banner, yet the aircraft is operational today ... and is quite a good platform in its Bison form where it can fire BVR's and has avionics upgrades etc. Same is the case with Mirage III/V Rose we operate or the F-7 PG's ... these aircrafts originally would fall under 2nd/3rd gens but owing to the upgrades that they've received ... in terms of what they offer they would be somewhere between 3rd gen and 4th gen fighters --- a 3.5 generation if you will ... or some could call them an early 4th gen ...maybe ... but then again -- putting generations on aircrafts ... is not really the best way to judge a platform ... after all we see the exceptions in platforms that originally belong to one generation .... but once upgraded perform up to par with another ...

 

[silent hawk]

I think you should refer to the JFT info pool thread ... @Manticore has done beyond an excellent job of compiling information about the aircraft -- which would surely convince you or anybody else for that matter, that JFT is a 4th generation platform .... One could go in to details as to why ... but to put it in the most simplest way possible, it offers alot more then the 4th generation F-16 A/B, infact one could even make a case for it being a tad bit better then the early C/D models minus the range & payload ... but I guess you get the point ...

Sometimes the cause of confusion, is that, there are platforms that are upgraded ... like the Mig-21 of the IAF, technically would fall under the 2nd generation aircraft banner, yet the aircraft is operational today ... and is quite a good platform in its Bison form where it can fire BVR's and has avionics upgrades etc. Same is the case with Mirage III/V Rose we operate or the F-7 PG's ... these aircrafts originally would fall under 2nd/3rd gens but owing to the upgrades that they've received ... in terms of what they offer they would be somewhere between 3rd gen and 4th gen fighters --- a 3.5 generation if you will ... or some could call them an early 4th gen ...maybe ... but then again -- putting generations on aircrafts ... is not really the best way to judge a platform ... after all we see the exceptions in platforms that originally belong to one generation .... but once upgraded perform up to par with another ...

Thanks will look at your referred info. Agree on your way of judging aircrafts. Disagree that JF-17 and F-16 are similar. It is like comparing an Alto (JF-17) with an Accord.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Thanks will look at your referred info. Agree on your way of judging aircrafts. Disagree that JF-17 and F-16 are similar. It is like comparing an Alto (JF-17) with an Accord.

You know you should acquire a little information about the platform your judging without much information on it ... and this discussion technically belongs in the JFT section so you should discuss it there ... but I stand by what I said ... JFT radar wise, avionics wise, EW wise & weapons wise is better then the early F-16's we operated ... and that is actually what we market ... and you don't market internationally what you cant back up ... secondly if you go back say 4-7 years ... the Chairman of Migkoyan was saying something along the lines of ... JFT being one of the prime competitor of Mig-29 in the export market ... so there is alot more discussion in to a comparison of fighters ... then simply dismissing it by saying its a comparison of such and such car and 'car a' can never touch 'car b'...

 

[batmannow]

Sir there is no solid proof that China has any restrictions regarding selling J11s to Pak other buyers. The only restrictions are perhaps on Pak side regarding costs and availability of jets as so far the latest variants of J11 are not even enough to fulfill Chinese domestic requirements.
Further off course WS-13 engines are also so far not available in large numbers.

Pakistan, Russia sign agreement for construction of North-South gas pipeline - Pakistan - DAWN.COM


With growing Russia - Pakistan relationship , we are getting closer day by day & I'm getting certain that we will have SU- 35 deal very soon!

Friend , when can get the frist hand equipment , we don't need copy of that ?

 

[batmannow]

Pakistan, Russia sign agreement for construction of North-South gas pipeline - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Here we go , Russia is getting closer to Pakistan day by day ?
Su-35 is coming next , what will our Indian friends can do about it ?