T-129 Atak & Turkish Attack Helicopter Programs

[Quasar]

What makes you think the current design doesn't disperse heat signature? any other design would make the engines work less effciently.


"Need to high protection here (Red circle) and very quickly."

ok they say perfect is the enemy of the good but still seeking more efficent ways of doing something does not harm us as well I guess...especialy when it is obvious that a special emphasis is given upon the heat signuture reduction in almost all contemporary attack helicopters resulting from exhaust gases.

unfortunatly I dont have any data concerning the comparison of the heat signutures of attack helicopters so I hope you would not mind to share with us if you have any and how such a cautious is effecting the engine efficiency and to a what extent ! thanks

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

@ Quasar

This element of the AH-64 Apache, which you mention (Exhaust gases outlet), is classified - Top secret -. This is one of the major elements that made him an exceptional combat helicopter. It requires a huge amount of R & D to hope to imitate one day.


See especially the video sequence from 16 : 47 to 20 : 35

...

 

[-------]

ok they say perfect is the enemy of the good but still seeking more efficent ways of doing something does not harm us as well I guess...especialy when it is obvious that a special emphasis is given upon the heat signuture reduction in almost all contemporary attack helicopters resulting from exhaust gases.

unfortunatly I dont have any data concerning the comparison of the heat signutures of attack helicopters so I hope you would not mind to share with us if you have any and how such a cautious is effecting the engine efficiency and to a what extent ! thanks

WR Davis is providing the IR suppressor for the T-129, they have plenty of articles on their website you can check out. They also provided solutions for Turkey's Huey helicopter modernization.

Here are some FACTs for you,
T-129 with WR Davis IR suppressor, stock vs IRS

And here's what it looks like

The T129 ATAK is an attack helicopter variant of the AW129 Mangusta developed by AgustaWestland for the Turkish Land Forces. The T129 Center Body Tailpipe achieves better than a 90% reduction in IR signature from all view angles versus the signature that would be achieved with a simple tailpipe. The T129 is marketed internationally by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and AW, and the T129 CBT

WR Davis is one of the finest companies out there when it comes to managing heat signature, Turkey has stuck with them throughout the years.

 

[era_shield]

ok they say perfect is the enemy of the good but still seeking more efficent ways of doing something does not harm us as well I guess...especialy when it is obvious that a special emphasis is given upon the heat signuture reduction in almost all contemporary attack helicopters resulting from exhaust gases.

unfortunatly I dont have any data concerning the comparison of the heat signutures of attack helicopters so I hope you would not mind to share with us if you have any and how such a cautious is effecting the engine efficiency and to a what extent ! thanks

The newest in-production Apache, the AH-64E, doesn't have the upward facing exhaust:

I couldn't find a clear pic of the AH-64F's exhaust, but if the E doesn't have it, it's probably not that effective, or can be done better a different way.

 

[SQ8]

Guys something is very interesting for me... According to deal it is forbidden to sell this heli to Italy... Wtf is that ?.. If Italy doesn't want to buy it then they shouldn't buy it... That's all... I think i couldn't understand what it means... What's the meaning of that ?..

The helicopter was designed in Italy as such. So by fair competition laws, TAI is forbidden to sell the aircraft to Italy since Italy can purchase the A-129 International from AgustaWestland.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

The newest in-production Apache, the AH-64E, doesn't have the upward facing exhaust:
...

I couldn't find a clear pic of the AH-64F's exhaust, but if the E doesn't have it, it's probably not that effective, or can be done better a different way.

This is not exhaust ducts upwardly which decrease the heat emission spectrum the AH-64 Apache.

It is a combined technology ‘cooling and absorption’ heat emitted ‘even before’ the outlet of its exhaust gases.


Link :

TAI T-129 ATAK | Page 62


...

 

[cabatli_53]

Brother, do you got any more information regarding the helicopter above? Is this a A-129 configuration? If so, what's its designation?

Bro, It was a modified A-129 done by Agusta in past. Modification was aimed to meet Australian requirements (If I remember correct) but later, They claimed It effected performance of copter so cancelled. I think We can manage to design much better head section for T129 which will provide better results for Turkish and ally armed forces and It is understood that TAI is on its way to do it from now...

 

[Baykuş]

It was a modified A-129 done by Agusta in past. Modification was aimed to meet Australian requirements (If I remember correct) but later, They claimed It effected performance of copter so cancelled. I think We can manage to design much better head section for T129 which will provide better results for Turkish and ally armed forces and It is understood that TAI is on its way to do it from now...

Thanks a lot! Googled a little but couldn't find any information, but now I know.

 

[-------]

Thanks a lot! Googled a little but couldn't find any information, but now I know.

You should see the A-129 (Tonal) they modified for European Attack helicopter tender.

Here is a model of a Naval variant, didn't go far beyond the model, but possibilities are there.

 

[cabatli_53]

You should see the A-129 (Tonal) they modified for European Attack helicopter tender.

Here is a model of a Naval variant, didn't go far beyond the model, but possibilities are there.

It was aimed to be European's Eurocopter thanks to LAH modification but Tiger got that fame thanks to multiple collaboration of European partners over it so LAH Tonal couldn't go beyond than mock-up phase that mock-up airframe was throwed to museums as a garbage.

 

[Baykuş]

You should see the A-129 (Tonal) they modified for European Attack helicopter tender.

Here is a model of a Naval variant, didn't go far beyond the model, but possibilities are there.

A-129 LAH was aimed to be European's Eurocopter but Tiger got that fame thanks to multiple collaboration of European partners over it so LAH Tonal couldn't go beyond than mock-up phase that mock-up airframe was throwed to museums as a garbage.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing brothers!
It gladdens me that our guys at SSM chose what seems to be a very modular helicopter as a platform for our own program. I guess that TAI has got the rights to perform every kind of external or internal modifications to the T-129 ?

 

[cabatli_53]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing brothers!
It gladdens me that our guys at SSM chose what seems to be a very modular helicopter as a platform for our own program. I guess that TAI has got the rights to perform every kind of external or internal modifications to the T-129 ?

T129 ATAK developed by ATAK team. The main contactor of Atak team is TAI, While Agusta and Aselsan is working as a subcontactor of TAI. Roketsan is main missile provider.

-There are two Atak office in World. One is in Italy and other one is in Turkey.
-There are two test-bed T129 Atak copters. One is in Italy, Other is in Turkey.
-There are only 1 T129 production, assembly center in World. It is in Turkey, Ankara.

T129 is totally different than Mangusta in terms of electronics, electro-optics, transmission, rotor and engine. Only similarity they share are their designs. It is because T129 are developed based on mangusta aiframe.


TAI as main contactor of Atak team has all rights to do followings within all life circle;
-Design new parts, performance improvements to meet requirements,
-Integration of different devices, avionics, missiles as main integrator without asking anybody.
-TAI/aselsan is the contactors which keeps the secrets of copter. That's why Atak simulators are developed as a seperate project different than Atak.
-Development of next variants/generations of Atak as equal owner of platform that is going to be shaped in accordance with changing perceptions,
-Marketing to all World countries excluding Agusta/Westland partners...
-Technology transfer to ally countries within the share of Atak team,
-Transfering production/assembly of parts to ally countries within the share of Atak team,

TAI is responsile of following as well,
-Production of almost all parts of fuselage/Assembly of produced parts,
-Meintenance/overall supply spare parts to ally countries
-Training of domestic and ally country pilots

-TAI is responsible of trials within its seperated trial programs between Italy/Turkey.
-The risks/faults/delays which was caused by failure design changes are under responsibility of TAI.

-With additional attempts after signiture, The most strategic part of Atak, transmissions are also included into Turkey's share. At present, Turkey is developing strategic alloys and casting technologies to manufacture that strategic transmission in T129B1.


and Other things that I can't remember at present...

 

[Baykuş]

T129 ATAK developed by ATAK team. The main contactor of Atak team is TAI, While Agusta and Aselsan is working as a subcontactor of TAI. Roketsan is main missile provider.

-There are two Atak office in World. One is in Italy and other one is in Turkey.
-There are two test-bed T129 Atak copters. One is in Italy, Other is in Turkey.
-There are only 1 T129 production, assembly center in World. It is in Turkey, Ankara.

T129 is totally different than Mangusta in terms of electronics, electro-optics, transmission, rotor and engine. Only similarity they share are their designs. It is because T129 are developed based on mangusta aiframe.


TAI as main contactor of Atak team has all rights to do followings within all life circle;
-Design new parts, performance improvements to meet requirements,
-Integration of different devices, avionics, missiles as main integrator without asking anybody.
-TAI/aselsan is the contactors which keeps the secrets of copter. That's why Atak simulators are developed as a seperate project different than Atak.
-Development of next variants/generations of Atak as equal owner of platform that is going to be shaped in accordance with changing perceptions,
-Marketing to all World countries excluding Agusta/Westland partners...
-Technology transfer to ally countries within the share of Atak team,
-Transfering production/assembly of parts to ally countries within the share of Atak team,

TAI is responsile of following as well,
-Production of almost all parts of fuselage/Assembly of produced parts,
-Meintenance/overall supply spare parts to ally countries
-Training of domestic and ally country pilots

-TAI is responsible of trials within its seperated trial programs between Italy/Turkey.
-The risks/faults/delays which was caused by failure design changes are under responsibility of TAI.

-With additional attempts after signiture, The most strategic part of Atak, transmissions are also included into Turkey's share. At present, Turkey is developing strategic alloys and casting technologies to manufacture that strategic transmission in T129B1.


and Other things that I can't remember at present...

Wooah, thanks a lot for this informative post brother!
Yet I'm a bit confused how the Italians could agree to such a deal with TAI. Sure, they got their share of money, but they basically gave the green light for a new - independent - competitor on the market who will not only compete in the same league (if not higher) as them, but also against them - with a much improved and more modern product

 

[cabatli_53]

Wooah, thanks a lot for this informative post brother!
Yet I'm a bit confused how the Italians could agree to such a deal with TAI. Sure, they got their share of money, but they basically gave the green light for a new - independent - competitor on the market who will not only compete in the same league (if not higher) as them, but also against them - with a much improved and more modern product

In additions, The Atak contactors keep their production shares on export markets as well.

As a remind, Turkish industry manufactured following items initially for T129A. It will be much bigger than current on T129B...

-42 different avionic systems are manufactured by Turkish Defence Industry
-6200 parts of total 6400 Atak body are manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industry
-Rotors are manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industry.

 

[usernameless]

In additions, The Atak contactors keep their production shares on export markets as well.

As a remind, Turkish industry manufactured following items initially for T129A. It will be much bigger than current on T129B...

-42 different avionic systems are manufactured by Turkish Defence Industry
-6200 parts of total 6400 Atak body are manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industry
-Rotors are manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industry.

bro, these remaining 200 body parts, are they crucial parts? and are they produced by another company/companies in Turkey or are they imported?