T-129 - Pakistan signs biggest ever defence exports deal of Turkish history

[Zarvan]

So lets say Pakistan is interested in Rafale. Will France entertain Pakistan's request knowing India's opposition? If the same rule is applied which you stated.

They already are offering Rafale. Last year there team was here and Russia also sells to China just like they sell to India. Russia would even sell S-400 to USA if USA wants to buy it

 

[Shabi1]

Politics are different now and Pakistan doesn't have any restrictions as long as it can pay, this stands for US hardware as well but now without support offset funding. Pakistan can buy Mi-28s if it wanted to but we need to understand the role the helicopters will primarily perform.

Pakistan's cobra's primarily are used for COIN in hot and high areas. T-129 is lighter and to some extent has a cockpit with better visibility than the alternatives. This would result in better high altitude performance. The AH-1Zs have excellent high altitude performance as well.

Mi-28 and WZ-10 are primarily anti armor platforms and are heavier because of more armor.

WZ-10

• Empty weight: 5,100 kg (11244 lb)
• Useful load: 1,500 kg[citation needed] (lb)
• Loaded weight: 5,540 kg[24] ～ 6,000 kg[citation needed] (lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 7,000 kg (15432 lb)

• Powerplant: 2 × WZ-9 turboshaft[24], 1000 kw[citation needed] (1350 shp) each

Mi-28 empty weight

• Empty weight: 7,890 kg (17,400 lb)
• Loaded weight: 10,500 kg (23,150 lb
• Powerplant: 2 × Klimov TV3-117 turboshaft, 1,636 kW (2,194 shp) each

T-129 empty weight

• Empty weight: 2,350 kg[citation needed] (5,181 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)

• Powerplant: 2 × LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each

Pretty simple to understand both T-129 and WZ-10 have almost same thrust engines but the weight difference would mean the WZ-10 will have comparably sluggish handling. WZ-10 range is also lower. I personally like the WZ-10 design and nevertheless a better powered WZ-10 is in the works but there is a huge Chinese internal order requirement for it and Pakistan's urgency could be the reason it is not waiting for it.

The Mi-28 is simply overkill and will be more expensive to run, plus has lower service and hover ceiling, so not ideally suited for Pakistan's COIN needs.

TOT is an absolute must for Pakistan because in COIN these helicopters will come across small arms fire and will repeatedly need to be patched up, most often cockpit and crucial areas are armored but rest isn't. If you do some searching up PA has been really busy fixing bullet holes and rotor damages on it's AH-1s.

As per my understanding Turkey has offered Pakistan a work share arrangement as well as TOT. This means PAC Kamra will be making parts and spares of the T-129 for other customers as well. So T-129 apparently a win-win.

 

[帅的一匹]

Politics are different now and Pakistan doesn't have any restrictions as long as it can pay, this stands for US hardware as well but now without support offset funding. Pakistan can buy Mi-28s if it wanted to but we need to understand the role the helicopters will primarily perform.

Pakistan's cobra's primarily are used for COIN in hot and high areas. T-129 is lighter and to some extent has a cockpit with better visibility than the alternatives. This would result in better high altitude performance. The AH-1Zs have excellent high altitude performance as well.

Mi-28 and WZ-10 are primarily anti armor platforms and are heavier because of more armor.

WZ-10

• Empty weight: 5,100 kg (11244 lb)
• Useful load: 1,500 kg[citation needed] (lb)
• Loaded weight: 5,540 kg[24] ～ 6,000 kg[citation needed] (lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 7,000 kg (15432 lb)

• Powerplant: 2 × WZ-9 turboshaft[24], 1000 kw[citation needed] (1350 shp) each

Mi-28 empty weight

• Empty weight: 7,890 kg (17,400 lb)
• Loaded weight: 10,500 kg (23,150 lb
• Powerplant: 2 × Klimov TV3-117 turboshaft, 1,636 kW (2,194 shp) each

T-129 empty weight

• Empty weight: 2,350 kg[citation needed] (5,181 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)

• Powerplant: 2 × LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each

Pretty simple to understand both T-129 and WZ-10 have almost same thrust engines but the weight difference would mean the WZ-10 will have comparably sluggish handling. WZ-10 range is also lower. I personally like the WZ-10 design and nevertheless a better powered WZ-10 is in the works but there is a huge Chinese internal order requirement for it and Pakistan's urgency could be the reason it is not waiting for it.

The Mi-28 is simply overkill and will be more expensive to run, plus has lower service and hover ceiling, so not ideally suited for Pakistan's COIN needs.

TOT is an absolute must for Pakistan because in COIN these helicopters will come across small arms fire and will repeatedly need to be patched up, most often cockpit and crucial areas are armored but rest isn't. If you do some searching up PA has been really busy fixing bullet holes and rotor damages on it's AH-1s.

As per my understanding Turkey has offered Pakistan a work share arrangement as well as TOT. This means PAC Kamra will be making parts and spares of the T-129 for other customers as well. So T-129 apparently a win-win.

Bro, the newest WZ9 Turboshaft variant had reached 1130KW.

WZ16 Turboshaft JV with France featuring 1600+SHP/1240KW(with potential to further increase to 2000SHP)is gonna enter mass production next year, so I think Z10 still stand a chance in the long term.

The weight of WZ16 is only 220KG, with very low oil consumption rate.

That's why I always like France, they willing to give technology USA doesn't wanna share:

As France is no NATO member, they are quite independent.

 

[araz]

So hard earned forex of industries and workers is being wasted on these toys..while industry is struggling under high taxation and lack of modernization..1.5 billion pumped into industrial modernization alone has potential to produce 6-10 billion in export..

It is the responsibility of the industrialists who own these industries to modernize them. In my view barring a few key industries all state industrial setups should be sold off.
However it is a very valid point with regards to resource generation(electricity &gas).
The matter of national defence is also a responsibility and a curse of sorts as we are in a volatile region and not submissive enough to take the demands of the West, India and other regional interests. At some stage it becomes a necessity to guard your national frontiers otherwise you maybe rich but still at the mercy of the others.
A

It's an offset deal/barter trade/partially cash. the deal is worth of 1.5 billions, doesn't mean Pakistan needs to pay that amount.

How much 50 Super MUSHAK are worth?

And in the future some of the components will be produced in Pakistan, which creates jobs and downstream supply chain, or even assembly line.

It's a mutual beneficial deal.


Modi is still on the fence now

A good deal over all. Only if allowed to progress naturally with progressively larger industrial share. For this we need to keep some hungry and dirty hands away from the pie. Pak Turkey collaboration has a lot of scope with Pak providing cheaper manufacturing of parts lowering the per unit cost for Turkey. This can lead to a same formula being used in multiple fields providing Pak people with jobs. So not just a fruitless buy but something with a positive outcome.
As to Modi and India, I really envy the way they have played the game from the fence keeping multiple parties engaged with big contracts yet not buying the influence. Strategically having cash to dole out as against none has a huge power of its own. Even US industry is keen to incorporate setups within the Indian infrastructure. However you will notice they have been very selective with what they buy. So appreciation where it is due. Pre 89 China could have played that game however the Chinese Government chose to maintain its particular flavour of Governance rather than Industrial help. Now China is an emerging world power without having compromised its principles but at loggerheads with the Developed world.
A

So lets say Pakistan is interested in Rafale. Will France entertain Pakistan's request knowing India's opposition? If the same rule is applied which you stated.

If PAF wants to buy the Rafale and pay hard cash the French will sell. The deal with India is done, why would they deny a second customer. Whether PAF will buy the Rafale now is another debate altogether.
A

 

[Shabi1]

Bro, the newest WZ9 Turboshaft variant had reached 1130KW.

WZ16 Turboshaft JV with France featuring 1600+SHP/1240KW(with potential to further increase to 2000SHP)is gonna enter mass production next year, so I think Z10 still stand a chance in the long term.

The weight of WZ16 is only 220KG, with very low oil consumption rate.

That's why I always like France, they willing to give technology USA doesn't wanna share:

As France is no NATO member, they are quite independent.

Yes, this is why although T-129s might be replacing Cobra's 1:1 but I also hope WZ-10 is not out of the game. Counter terror operations will continue indefinitely and gunships have been very effective so PA will need to increase it's gunship fleet to tackle both Western and Eastern threats so maybe in future, once improved variant has matured. It has a spot with PA in anti armor and interdiction role since it's rumored to have Commanche low observability influence in the design.

However T-129 is not a idle platform, Turks are making a improved powerplant locally and since PAC will be involved in work sharing Pakistan can make it's own modifications, we could see local munitions or even UAV/UCAV integration in future.

Time will tell.

 

[denel]

So hard earned forex of industries and workers is being wasted on these toys..while industry is struggling under high taxation and lack of modernization..1.5 billion pumped into industrial modernization alone has potential to produce 6-10 billion in export..

Well put.

 

[帅的一匹]

@araz China was dirt poor back in1980s, or we would have inducted lot more advanced weapon system than it was.
Money is everything.

 

[waz]

Zulus are blocked for now and most likely they will remain blocked.

There is no official confirmation of this, but then the spectre of why they haven't be delivered i.e. the first three, remains unanswered....

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We should forget about Zulus and F16 and focus on Good quality MI35M and T129/Z10

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Pretty simple to understand both T-129 and WZ-10 have almost same thrust engines but the weight difference would mean the WZ-10 will have comparably sluggish handling. WZ-10 range is also lower. I personally like the WZ-10 design and nevertheless a better powered WZ-10 is in the works but there is a huge Chinese internal order requirement for it and Pakistan's urgency could be the reason it is not waiting for it.

The Mi-28 is simply overkill and will be more expensive to run, plus has lower service and hover ceiling, so not ideally suited for Pakistan's COIN needs.

Beautifully explained , , , We need helis ASAP and T-129 is very much tested and in use (kind of old relationship) so we are going for it , and for anti-armour Pakistan will go for Z-10 for many reasons we just waiting for right engine and time.

 

[BATMAN]

There is no official confirmation of this, but then the spectre of why they haven't be delivered i.e. the first three, remains unanswered....

There's no official statement but practically they are blocked.

 

[帅的一匹]

There's no official statement but practically they are blocked.

How can they block something Pakistan had paid for? Totally shameless.

 

[jhungary]

There is no official confirmation of this, but then the spectre of why they haven't be delivered i.e. the first three, remains unanswered....

I have 2 sources (1 form Textron and 1 from US government) that told me the first 3 chopper had indeed been deliver to Pakistan and is at the hand of the Pakistani since the beginning of this year. At the moment PAA is building hanger and maintenance centre to house and service these helicopter.

unless the ship that deliver these chopper had sunk, I am pretty sure they are already in Pakistani hand. PAA is hiding these chopper by the order of US government, as to why? No one knows, most likely it's OPSEC thing.

 

[mikaal]

It is the responsibility of the industrialists who own these industries to modernize them. In my view barring a few key industries all state industrial setups should be sold off.
However it is a very valid point with regards to resource generation(electricity &gas).
The matter of national defence is also a responsibility and a curse of sorts as we are in a volatile region and not submissive enough to take the demands of the West, India and other regional interests. At some stage it becomes a necessity to guard your national frontiers otherwise you maybe rich but still at the mercy of the others.
A


A good deal over all. Only if allowed to progress naturally with progressively larger industrial share. For this we need to keep some hungry and dirty hands away from the pie. Pak Turkey collaboration has a lot of scope with Pak providing cheaper manufacturing of parts lowering the per unit cost for Turkey. This can lead to a same formula being used in multiple fields providing Pak people with jobs. So not just a fruitless buy but something with a positive outcome.
As to Modi and India, I really envy the way they have played the game from the fence keeping multiple parties engaged with big contracts yet not buying the influence. Strategically having cash to dole out as against none has a huge power of its own. Even US industry is keen to incorporate setups within the Indian infrastructure. However you will notice they have been very selective with what they buy. So appreciation where it is due. Pre 89 China could have played that game however the Chinese Government chose to maintain its particular flavour of Governance rather than Industrial help. Now China is an emerging world power without having compromised its principles but at loggerheads with the Developed world.
A


If PAF wants to buy the Rafale and pay hard cash the French will sell. The deal with India is done, why would they deny a second customer. Whether PAF will buy the Rafale now is another debate altogether.
A

problem here is we dont have brain like indians we lack the business minded people in the armed forces who are going to work for a better deal we missed a big in manufacturer choosing the attack helicopter.
Turkish t 129 and the Chinese wz10 should have not be the only two helicopters tested the south African Denel Rooivalk should have been tested too .the armed forces had multiple reasons for that
1 Denel Rooivalk use the same engine like the puma helicopters which we aleardy know a lot about .
2 we could have worked with south africa and airbus to get the tot for not just one helicopter but 2. our puma helicopters already need replacing so the the airbus h215 and h225 would have been perfect.
3 rd we could have made it a bigger deal working with south Africa by including things like MRAPS TOT and G6 howitzers (if they fit our requirement)
4th we could have got a new defense partner like south Africa in our pocket and could have asked for discount too for the bigger deal
5 th with h215 and h225 we could have fulfilled our navy requirements too in long term
6 th instead of buying Russian mi35 could have used puma with similar configuration like the Romanians are using
7 th instead of buying those american ah-1z Denel Rooivalk would have been perfect

this could have been made to our mother of all the deals

 

[BATMAN]

How can they block something Pakistan had paid for? Totally shameless.

They have never delivered F-16. US is openly playing enemy of Pakistan, not from today but from decades back in history.