T-129 Atak & Turkish Attack Helicopter Programs

[LegionnairE]

it has the DIRCM to protect against those manpads, plus EW and even with 360 degree radar coverage it can also shoot coming missiles with its 30mm air burst gun which will be the future

EW won't do anything against MANPADS and DIRCM, we'll see but I'm not very confident. The problem is MANPADS are so cheap that you can saturate the battlefield with them and you're shooting down 40-50 Million $ Helicopters with it

If DIRCM, flare/chaff misdirected %80 of missiles you're still at a huge disadvantage in a conventional war.

We need a hard-kill system, which no helicopter has right now. And UCAVs are quickly taking over most roles from attack helicopters. Why pay for 40-50 mil. attack helo when 15mil. $ UCAV gets the job done?

In the naval side of things, it's much different. It's 50 mil. $ helo vs.billion dollar submarine

 

[aziqbal]

EW won't do anything against MANPADS and DIRCM, we'll see but I'm not very confident. The problem is MANPADS are so cheap that you can saturate the battlefield with them and you're shooting down 40-50 Million $ Helicopters with it

If DIRCM, flare/chaff misdirected %80 of missiles you're still at a huge disadvantage in a conventional war.

View attachment 925527

We need a hard-kill system, which no helicopter has right now. And UCAVs are quickly taking over most roles from attack helicopters. Why pay for 40-50 mil. attack helo when 15mil. $ UCAV gets the job done?

In the naval side of things, it's much different. It's 50 mil. $ helo vs.billion dollar submarine

No not so easy and it doesnt work like that

1 Stinger doesnt take down a helicopter it takes dozens of launches off course there is always exception

its taken 1,000s of Stingers and 1,000s of ATGM to stop the Russian helicopters and tanks in Ukraine

and yet they still cant do it, just Twitter those Ukrainian ATGM teams on the quad bikes, one team fired over 100 ATGM missiles and still never knocked out a single tank eventually they rank out of missiles

a gunship is still king when it comes to wiping out armoured formations and UAV or UCAVS are just a add on not replacement never a replacement

the attack helicopter will remain on the battle field so will the tank

 

[LegionnairE]

its taken 1,000s of Stingers and 1,000s of ATGM to stop the Russian helicopters and tanks in Ukraine

Thousands of Stingers is still cheaper than a single attack helicopter lol. That's a big part of the problem.

a gunship is still king when it comes to wiping out armoured formations and UAV or UCAVS are just a add on not replacement never a replacement

are you sure about it?

We're coming pretty close

 

[Zarvan]

Thousands of Stingers is still cheaper than a single attack helicopter lol. That's a big part of the problem.


are you sure about it?

We're coming pretty close

Bigger drones like Akinci and Aksungur plus others in same category exceeds what a attack helicopter can do.

 

[LegionnairE]

Bigger drones like Akinci and Aksungur plus others in same category exceeds what a attack helicopter can do.

they are still lacking a gun and an attack helicopter could be better at cleaning up terrorist groups with the gun, but in a conventional war, numbers rule.

If I can afford 400 Aksungur or Akıncı drones for the price of 100 T929 Attack helos, the choice is really simple.

 

[Zarvan]

they are still lacking a gun and an attack helicopter could be better at cleaning up terrorist groups with the gun, but in a conventional war, numbers rule.

If I can afford 400 Aksungur or Akıncı drones for the price of 100 T929 Attack helos, the choice is really simple.

Accurate missile strikes are way more effective then using a gun to spread terror. Plus off course cost.

 

[aziqbal]

Thousands of Stingers is still cheaper than a single attack helicopter lol. That's a big part of the problem.


are you sure about it?

We're coming pretty close

your wrong by your own admission, you know more than Turkish military planners? ironically you are advocating UAV In T129 thread

thats only your opinion not fact of the battlefield or governments or militaries throughout the world

why Turkey is spending more on T129 and ATAK-II? when they have TB2 and TB3

why they have TFX for fun? when they have Kizilima UCAV

why spends millions even billions on Altay MBT

like I said I do agree to a certain extent but its not a replacement

its called combined arms integrated battlefield and everything has to be used together

never a replacement, combined arms warfare

 

[LegionnairE]

your wrong by your own admission, you know more than Turkish military planners? ironically you are advocating UAV In T129 thread

thats only your opinion not fact of the battlefield or governments or militaries throughout the world

why Turkey is spending more on T129 and ATAK-II? when they have TB2 and TB3

why they have TFX for fun? when they have Kizilima UCAV

why spends millions even billions on Altay MBT

like I said I do agree to a certain extent but its not a replacement

its called combined arms integrated battlefield and everything has to be used together

never a replacement, combined arms warfare

To be honest I think the Turkish planenrs just want to have the best of everything and naturally they want to have the best attack helicopter as well.

TFX, Altay and other comparisons are irrelevant though I have my criticisms of them too.


As I said, I recognize some advantages of the attack helicopter, hell, I love the attack helicopter but if we draw some lessons from Ukraine, I think we should cancel or delay the T929 until we are confident that we have the technologies to create a paradigm shift.

Are we really confident that T929 could fly and be effective in a battlefield like Ukraine where Mi-28 and Ka-52s are failing? Do we have so much better countermeasures than Russians? These are important questions and I really am not confident in their answer.

 

[aziqbal]

To be honest I think the Turkish planenrs just want to have the best of everything and naturally they want to have the best attack helicopter as well.

TFX, Altay and other comparisons are irrelevant though I have my criticisms of them too.


As I said, I recognize some advantages of the attack helicopter, hell, I love the attack helicopter but if we draw some lessons from Ukraine, I think we should cancel or delay the T929 until we are confident that we have the technologies to create a paradigm shift.

Are we really confident that T929 could fly and be effective in a battlefield like Ukraine where Mi-28 and Ka-52s are failing? Do we have so much better countermeasures than Russians? These are important questions and I really am not confident in their answer.

I never seen Russian do proper combined arms warfare in Ukraine in the last 14 months

Ukraine is training for combined arms warfare but it will be years before they can do it on the battlefield with advanced equipment

Turkey has the experience, knowledge, training and the equipment to do combined arms warfare

this is where they will use the full spectrum of equipment along with intelligence, reconnaissance, surveillance, eavesdropping, electronic warfare, electronic jamming and whole list and array of other sensors and radars to build a real time picture of the battlefield and use their assets in the air and ground in a coordinated way to defeat the threat

a attack helicopter on its own is sitting duck, however when used with armoured formations with top cover from AWACS, SEAD/DEAD missions, electronic jamming and intelligence gathering is a deadly asset

a attack helicopter is part of a large jigsaw, one jigsaw wont give the photo you need EVERYTHING to work together

this is why in my original post I said one UAV or UCAV does NOT replace a attack helicopter

you need to understand how warfare works before you start throwing around lose statements like 1,000 Stingers are cheaper than a Ka-52, that is not how wars and battles work

 

[Trisolaran]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1649901914975248387

 

[LegionnairE]

I never seen Russian do proper combined arms warfare in Ukraine in the last 14 months

Ukraine is training for combined arms warfare but it will be years before they can do it on the battlefield with advanced equipment

Turkey has the experience, knowledge, training and the equipment to do combined arms warfare

this is where they will use the full spectrum of equipment along with intelligence, reconnaissance, surveillance, eavesdropping, electronic warfare, electronic jamming and whole list and array of other sensors and radars to build a real time picture of the battlefield and use their assets in the air and ground in a coordinated way to defeat the threat

a attack helicopter on its own is sitting duck, however when used with armoured formations with top cover from AWACS, SEAD/DEAD missions, electronic jamming and intelligence gathering is a deadly asset

a attack helicopter is part of a large jigsaw, one jigsaw wont give the photo you need EVERYTHING to work together

this is why in my original post I said one UAV or UCAV does NOT replace a attack helicopter

you need to understand how warfare works before you start throwing around lose statements like 1,000 Stingers are cheaper than a Ka-52, that is not how wars and battles work

Combined arms warfare is a 1940ies principle that the Third reich successfully pulled off in many occasions. Rommel was a master at it. To say that Russians can't do it now is a bit of a stretch I'm sorry. I've seen videos where Ka-52s followed Russian ground units closely and providing CAS and I've seen Turkish T-129 fly forward alone and get shot down.

Maybe our radios and communication is slightly better and therefore we coordinate a liittle better and maybe our pilots fly more hours and they are better trained. But don't expect too much difference, a battlefield like Ukraine would be just as big a nightmare for our guys as Russians.,

Most MANPADS are IIR guided, EW won't do anything to them, even flares won't do much. As @Kamil_baku said DIRCM is somewhat helpful but there's a limit.

 

[Hold the door]

Combined arms warfare is a 1940ies principle that the Third reich successfully pulled off in many occasions. Rommel was a master at it. To say that Russians can't do it now is a bit of a stretch I'm sorry. I've seen videos where Ka-52s followed Russian ground units closely and providing CAS and I've seen Turkish T-129 fly forward alone and get shot down.

Maybe our radios and communication is slightly better and therefore we coordinate a liittle better and maybe our pilots fly more hours and they are better trained. But don't expect too much difference, a battlefield like Ukraine would be just as big a nightmare for our guys as Russians.,

Most MANPADS are IIR guided, EW won't do anything to them, even flares won't do much. As @Kamil_baku said DIRCM is somewhat helpful but there's a limit.

It is very wrong to call helicopters a failure because helicopters were lost in the war.


If you look at the losses of the Russians, you will see that they lost a lot of everything, not just helicopters.

 

[aziqbal]

Combined arms warfare is a 1940ies principle that the Third reich successfully pulled off in many occasions. Rommel was a master at it. To say that Russians can't do it now is a bit of a stretch I'm sorry. I've seen videos where Ka-52s followed Russian ground units closely and providing CAS and I've seen Turkish T-129 fly forward alone and get shot down.

Maybe our radios and communication is slightly better and therefore we coordinate a liittle better and maybe our pilots fly more hours and they are better trained. But don't expect too much difference, a battlefield like Ukraine would be just as big a nightmare for our guys as Russians.,

Most MANPADS are IIR guided, EW won't do anything to them, even flares won't do much. As @Kamil_baku said DIRCM is somewhat helpful but there's a limit.

you do realise combined arms warfare is the cornerstone of every Western Military doctrine

 

[LegionnairE]

you do realise combined arms warfare is the cornerstone of every Western Military doctrine

it should be the cornerstone of any military doctrine.

 

[Oublious]

Attak 2

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650909393817419781