T-129 a game changer for Pakistan Military

[war&peace]

Geopolitics and Resources take over at that stage; however, as the nuke determination of Pakistan showed, Pakistan can suprise again and cross it again for those projects.

However, as you may already have realized Turkey has run multiple projects and Pakistan avoids taking part in and wants to stay as ''customer'' not partner. I would like to read your approach to this situation, if any.

That's because our leadership consists of idiots who have no interest in JV and ToTs. Though we have been paying for ToTs to France, China, Germany but somehow we never utilise that knowledge. I hope accountability is started on the procurements of the military equipment over the past 30-35 years. Joining a project is the best approach because you not only participate in each phase of the development i.e. from concept to preliminary design and all the iterations to arrive at the final configuration and locking of the design but also you are able to train the manpower in the meanwhile.

 

[jhungary]

everything we buy is a game changer

This quote is probably the best on this topic.

In many case, either everything Pakistan buy is a game changer, or nothing Pakistani buy is a game changer.

As a soldier myself, I don't believe in Game Changing platform, especially an Air-Ground platform.. In the US military, I have the capability to drop bomb to where-ever I want, how ever I wanted it, and its accurate, so If I want a bomb to be drop here, and not the bridge next to it, I will have them hit right down the pickle barrel.

But what next? Even the bomb hit where I want it to hit, when I want it to hit, I still need to go from my relative safety to the other side to occupied their ground. I can drop bomb on them, but once I get too close to them, there are pretty much nothing you have can be used against your enemy, and it will go back to the good ol fashion ground war, and you know what? Your enemy knows it too.

Advance platform would allow your own troop more easily to complete their task, but you have to complete your task nonetheless, which mean it doesn't matter what you use or how you use it, you still have to get over there and get your hand dirty. On the other hand, advance platform can feed you the right information you need when you go over there. So you weren't completely "in the dark", that's all.

 

[War Thunder]

Tank units with few shoulder fired AAMs like stinger would be lethal to these helis

What makes you think this hasn't been always the case, and how tactics and operational procedures have been developed keeping that in mind?
Besides, most armed choppers hardly ever fly above the radar line to be picked up in the first place, and its hard for shoulder / vehicle mounted weaponary to quickly tackle a bird that shows up out of nowhere, lights up the shit around you and is gone ...

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Turks should get maximum participation from pakistan. We need to support turkey.

 

[.]

Last I checked this had western systems .
What happens during sanctions??

 

[Signalian]

This quote is probably the best on this topic.

In many case, either everything Pakistan buy is a game changer, or nothing Pakistani buy is a game changer.

As a soldier myself, I don't believe in Game Changing platform, especially an Air-Ground platform.. In the US military, I have the capability to drop bomb to where-ever I want, how ever I wanted it, and its accurate, so If I want a bomb to be drop here, and not the bridge next to it, I will have them hit right down the pickle barrel.

But what next? Even the bomb hit where I want it to hit, when I want it to hit, I still need to go from my relative safety to the other side to occupied their ground. I can drop bomb on them, but once I get too close to them, there are pretty much nothing you have can be used against your enemy, and it will go back to the good ol fashion ground war, and you know what? Your enemy knows it too.

Advance platform would allow your own troop more easily to complete their task, but you have to complete your task nonetheless, which mean it doesn't matter what you use or how you use it, you still have to get over there and get your hand dirty. On the other hand, advance platform can feed you the right information you need when you go over there. So you weren't completely "in the dark", that's all.

Induction of Mmw Radar could be the relative benefit here since it has not been inducted before and brings lots of benefits.

 

[jhungary]

Induction of Mmw Radar could be the relative benefit here since it has not been inducted before and brings lots of benefits.

That's depends, if you are under a major attack, you know they are coming for you, you don't need to know how many and exactly where, if you get overwhelmed. And in this case, India have the number and strength to overwhelm Pakistani defence in the air, on land and at sea.

But yeah, I will agree this would make warfighting easier, but not a game changer per se.

 

[YeBeWarned]

That's depends, if you are under a major attack, you know they are coming for you, you don't need to know how many and exactly where, if you get overwhelmed. And in this case, India have the number and strength to overwhelm Pakistani defence in the air, on land and at sea.

But yeah, I will agree this would make warfighting easier, but not a game changer per se.

I think game changer is a vague term here, most of these T-129 will be on our eastern Borders in case of IA Advance, and as PA can not match IA large tank formations ( in numbers ) purchasing Attack helicopters armed them with rockets and ATGM's will give support to our ground forces . Staying within our borders and SAM's umbrella we can hit IA tanks from quite some distance before their SAM/Radars pick these choppers .

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I was thinking while Turkey is manufacturing the Helicopters , it is up to Pakistan authorities to complete the Helicopter factory facility build the basic infrastructure and send Engineers to Turkey to see assembly and construction in action

In Pakistan the red tape around land acquisition and finalizing contractors who would construct the factory takes long time might as well get the logistical items sorted out

Ideal case would be 40 Engineers / Students , sent to Turkey to get trained hand on for 3-4 years

 

[araz]

This quote is probably the best on this topic.

In many case, either everything Pakistan buy is a game changer, or nothing Pakistani buy is a game changer.

As a soldier myself, I don't believe in Game Changing platform, especially an Air-Ground platform.. In the US military, I have the capability to drop bomb to where-ever I want, how ever I wanted it, and its accurate, so If I want a bomb to be drop here, and not the bridge next to it, I will have them hit right down the pickle barrel.

But what next? Even the bomb hit where I want it to hit, when I want it to hit, I still need to go from my relative safety to the other side to occupied their ground. I can drop bomb on them, but once I get too close to them, there are pretty much nothing you have can be used against your enemy, and it will go back to the good ol fashion ground war, and you know what? Your enemy knows it too.

Advance platform would allow your own troop more easily to complete their task, but you have to complete your task nonetheless, which mean it doesn't matter what you use or how you use it, you still have to get over there and get your hand dirty. On the other hand, advance platform can feed you the right information you need when you go over there. So you weren't completely "in the dark", that's all.

So how much of an advance have small drones brought to the arena. Are these force multipliers? What is their attrition rate?
A

 

[Signalian]

That's depends, if you are under a major attack, you know they are coming for you, you don't need to know how many and exactly where, if you get overwhelmed. And in this case, India have the number and strength to overwhelm Pakistani defence in the air, on land and at sea.

But yeah, I will agree this would make warfighting easier, but not a game changer per se.

In the arena of COIN war, this tech has been missing

 

[T-123456]

Turkish defence sector has a very close link with NATO

NATO is an organisation of countries which Türkiye is a member of since 1952,your post doesnt make sense.

 

[cabatli_53]

A radar similar to the apache mounted on the rotor would be nice.

ATak-II will be inducted with following systems;

• MMW radar
• IRST
• Embedded electronic warfare sensors including MWR
• AVCI-II HMDU
• An advanced data-link allowing copter to perform coordination with drones.
• 3rd generation lighter CATS E/O hosting national QWIP detectors.

Last I checked this had western systems .
What happens during sanctions??

Contribution of countries into T-129 Atak program was like above at the beginning of the program. With extensive R&D and national development activities, Landing gear and Transmission gearbox have been replaced with domestic equivalents by national institutes. Derivative of national transmission developed for Atak will be used for T-625 GökBey utility helicopters as well.

In final phase,

• 20mm gatling gun is being developed by Sarsilmaz Silah San.
• 1400shp engine is being developed by Tusaş Motor San.

20mm gatling gun

TS-1400 Turboshaft engine

 

[lonelyman]

Turkish defence sector has a very close link with NATO and Israel and both two r very good in tech and electronics

True, helicopter itself is totally based on mature Italian design, important parts such as engine is under complete western control and subject to NATO sanctions

 

[jhungary]

So how much of an advance have small drones brought to the arena. Are these force multipliers? What is their attrition rate?
A

It took me a while to realise your last word A is your signature lol

Anyway, by small drone, I guess you meant recce drone not a full size MQ-1 Predator or MQ-9 Reaper.

It will give you a clear picture as to what you want to do, because you have picture of where you want to go before you actually going there. Which generally will help a lot, but whether it is a force multiplier is another question together.

First, you need to set a definition of what is a force multiplier, well, yes, it mean it multiply your force effectiveness, but by how much you can claim that is a force multiplier? Recce Drone will most definitely increase the efficiency but in term of warfighting capability, seeing better does not mean you can fight better, because it will basically negate by your enemy is hiding better.

In my personal experience, not all recce asset detect everything, and if they know you are coming, usually recce asset is useless, because if they want to ambush you, they still can. Having recce asset, including recce drone might have help you plan your action afterward, but effectively you still need to do what you are going to do with or without the drone, and the drone may have save you 10 or 20 minutes planning time, but it won't enhance your warfighting capability and let you do more.

MQ-1 or MQ-9 type armed drone or UCAV could be, because for a single man operation, you can increase your capability to not just reconnaissance, but direct targeting, and tactical targeting. It will let you do something that you probably cant or don't have the capability to do, but recce drone, they would do just that, they recon.

In the arena of COIN war, this tech has been missing

Yeah, but it was not a point where it can be called a "Game Changer", at least in my point of view.