Swords and Shields: F-35 beats Russians

[Metallic]

14 January 2009

Russia lags behind the United States in aerospace research and development. It has yet to produce decent competitors to America's two new, fifth-generation fighter jets, the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter and the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor.

The main Russian rivals to the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightnings are the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 (NATO designation Fulcrum F) and the Sukhoi Su-35 (NATO designation Flanker). The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 is an upgrade of the MiG-29M/M2 and the MiG-29OVT. Both are fourth-generation jets.

The Russian government has been eagerly selling the Sukhoi fighter jets to its friends, so these aircraft are likely to be found in areas where the potential for conflict is greatest, while financing development of the fifth-generation fighter from these export revenues.

Russian analysts like to note that the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning JSF, with a maximum speed of only 1,200 mph, is slower than both the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker -- maximum speed 1,680 mph -- and the MiG-35 Fulcrum -- maximum speed 1,587 mph. The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning's range of 1,320 miles is below the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker's range of 2,260 miles as well.

While these measures make the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter seem inferior, they are actually fully consistent with its projected mission: F-35s are designed to operate in tandem with Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptors, which would clear the way for F-35s in real combat.

Moreover, the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning JSF's reported service ceiling of around 57,000 feet is superior to the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 Fulcrum's 56,000 feet and the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker's 55,000 feet. The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning JSF also claims a significant advantage in maneuverability because of its smaller size, advanced materials and lightweight construction.

On the record, Russian defense officials insist their Sukhoi and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG fighters can stand up to their American rivals. But a Russian Defense Ministry expert, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told Pravda.ru that Russia "patches" its fourth-generation modifications to extend their lifespan, while most of its fifth-generation fighter program has largely remained on paper.

In fact, statistics are only the broadest indicators of an aircraft's performance. Combat performance analysis includes maneuverability, stealth, tactics, training, avionics, situation awareness, weapons, countermeasures, interoperability and supportability as major factors.

Stealth is a major discriminator between a 5G fighter like the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter and "Gen 4 plus plus" competitors like the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 Fulcrum and the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker that are essentially modernizations of their respective progenitors, the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 and the Sukhoi Su-27. No operational Soviet or Russian stealth aircraft has ever been reported to have entered service.

A U.S. analyst who requested anonymity said that while the Russians have some good specific system technologies, their ability to effectively integrate them often lags behind that of the West, and the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter takes integration of off-board intelligence to a step well beyond proven Russian capabilities.

"From the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union until crude oil prices recently rose to $100 per barrel, the ability of Russian aircraft designers to transition their advanced scientific knowledge through RDT&E (research, development, test and evaluation) into production-ready systems has been restricted, with funding available almost solely from sales of its legacy 4th Gen MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters to other countries," the analyst said.

With oil prices collapsing, the challenges of serial production of advanced aerospace weapons systems remains, while the Russian highly skilled military space and aviation industry labor force is pushing 60 -- beyond the life expectancy of an average Russian male.

Sukhoi Su-30 fighters bought by China and India were more advanced than those in Russian air force service, which were procured only in small quantities. Progress in completing the production development of the PAK-FA T-50, Russia's first 5G fighter design, remains dependent on Indian funding.

While notable improvements have been made in the reliability and supportability of Russian aircraft systems, they still fall far short of Western standards. This is particularly true of aircraft engines.

Russia has a long way to go to catch up with the United States in the prestigious new generation fighter competition. Only domestic politics, such as in Europe; declining economic fortunes of potential partners; and high production costs of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter may slow down its triumphant march.

 

[Chanakyaa]

No Doubt about That.
F35 is a Miracle , so is the F22 , but its More about Money .
I dont think Russians wont be able to make it , if they get Money.

In a recent Article in IEEE Nov. Edition , The estimate of F35 Programme was $1 Trillian , this amount is way above any country can invest in such programme , .

And its a Joint venture.. so u can say even US could Not afford it alone.

Believe it or NOT they have even started work on 6th Gen Fighter !!
Its all about Money Honey !

 

[duhastmish]

sir
its an old news , the reply was sent by russian as:
Swords and Shields: Russia bets on PAK FA

The Russian fifth-generation fighter is supposed to make its first test flight this year.
by Ariel Cohen
Washington (UPI) Jan 16, 2009
Moscow continues to pursue a Sukhoi-based fifth-generation fighter. After five years of effort, Russia finally found an international partner for the development project. In 2007 India entered an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter based on the Sukhoi.

The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA -- standing for Advanced Frontline Aviation Aircraft System -- is a stealth-enabled fighter jet designed to compete with the American Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Aircraft and the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor. Russian air force watchers already christened it "Raptorsky," after the F-22 Raptor, with which it is supposed to compete.

The developers describe the T-50 PAK FA as having excellent maneuverability, supersonic cruising speed, long range and high protective properties. PAK FA will have a takeoff weight of 20 tons, which falls between the takeoff weight of the two American competitor airplanes, the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons).

The new fighter -- a medium version -- will have a traditional wing form, though the dramatic-looking reverse-delta wing of the Su-47 Berkut influenced the Russian fighter's designers.

The Russian fifth-generation fighter is supposed to make its first test flight this year. The testing dates have been postponed from the end of 2008, as had been previously announced by Sergei Ivanov, the Russian deputy prime minister in charge of defense production.

Some Russian spokesmen promised deployment of the T-50 in 2013, but according to the earlier statements by Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan, the new Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter might enter mass production by 2015.

According to Russian sources, the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will incorporate technology from the two experimental predecessors: the Su-47 and the MiG Project 1.44.

The flagships of the Russian aerospace technology -- Tekhnokompleks Scientific and Production Center, Ramenskoye Instrument Building Design Bureau, the Instrument Building Scientific Research Institute in Zhukovskiy, the Ural'sk Optical and Mechanical Plant in Yekaterinburg, the Polet firm in Nizhniy Novgorod and the Central Scientific Research Radio Engineering Institute in Moscow -- were selected to develop the avionics suite for the fifth-generation airplane.

NPO Saturn has been determined to lead the work on the engines. The Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association has begun construction of the fifth-generation fighter at its renowned Komsomol'sk-on-Amure Chkalov plant where most Sukhoi fighters are made.

However, considering the current economic recession and the track record of delayed deadlines, the Russian fifth-generation fighter may stay on paper for a longer time. This would give Washington and its allies sufficient time to launch mass production of F-35s, deploy them on American bases and fulfill orders from international customers such as Britain, the Netherlands and Israel.

The F-35 is expected to enter service no later than 2012, while the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA is certain to be in mass production by that time.

The future may not be bright for the next generation of the Russian fighter. Many Western defense experts believe Russia's fourth-generation fighter jets cannot withstand the U.S. stealth-enabled tandem of F-35 and F-22, which offer high maneuverability and near invisibility to surface radars because of advanced radar suppression equipment. Moreover, U.S.-based simulations and tests suggest that the stealth-enabled fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 can defeat any current aircraft, including the Raptorsky.

 

[duhastmish]

xhitiz sir,

i think for sixth generation they will have to make a joint venture with whole world if it keep going so high in price. but isn't it crazy how Russian end up providing the almost same quality with much less price. f-22 is currently the best fighter and i doubt f-35 will take over it, but still i think pak-fa will give a tough fight to both of them.

 

[nitesh]

I dont think Russians wont be able to make it , if they get Money.

don;t put such statements. You remember the days when space exploration started. Both US and Russia (Then Soviet Union) were in deli ma that how the astronauts will use ink pens without gravity (Gravity makes the ink to flow downwards so that you can write). Us has invested more then 1.5 million dollars to invent Gel pen for there use.

You know what Russia (Then Soviet Union). They used pencil.


Some times you need to think practically rather then spending money only.

PS: Gel Pen is a good invention. I am just giving an example.

 

[duhastmish]

sir nitesh
Gel Pens were invented by the Sakura Color Products Corp and pencil was a British invention of 1563. Space Pen was invented by americans. but its a urban legend that us spent 11million$ for it. but in reality both of them use space pen, and pensil were used by nasa till 1965. but a sharp pensil 0 gravity will be a very serious weapon.
before space pen space agency used grease pencils with plastic slates.
thank you

p.s: i love that joke though and so does most American pilots i met.

 

[Chanakyaa]

don;t put such statements. You remember the days when space exploration started. Both US and Russia (Then Soviet Union) were in deli ma that how the astronauts will use ink pens without gravity (Gravity makes the ink to flow downwards so that you can write). Us has invested more then 1.5 million dollars to invent Gel pen for there use.

You know what Russia (Then Soviet Union). They used pencil.


Some times you need to think practically rather then spending money only.

PS: Gel Pen is a good invention. I am just giving an example.

Yes I agree to Your point and u r correct in ur logic.
But I think when talking about F22 or F35 , which were headaches for Us themselves.. ( as far as new technology is concerned )

and Russia Relying on India for Finance in PAK FA , it wont be wrong to say that Fighter Aircraft Tech is Diffcult to master and even if have the capability , Money is a decisive factor.

 

[Chanakyaa]

xhitiz sir,

i think for sixth generation they will have to make a joint venture with whole world if it keep going so high in price. but isn't it crazy how Russian end up providing the almost same quality with much less price. f-22 is currently the best fighter and i doubt f-35 will take over it, but still i think pak-fa will give a tough fight to both of them.

I dont Think so, PAK FA is good but F22 is the Best !

The Su-35 vs. the F-22? Well for one these aircraft are built with two different purposes in mind.

If one looks at the Su-35/37 they notice forward canards. Something that only the americans are not incorporating into their new fighters. The reason for this is forward canards speak to manuverability in a pinch. This boils down to dogfighting. In the hands of pilots of equal skill, the Su's have the advantage in a dogfight.

However dogfights account for only 1 out of 10 aerial victories. The rest being attained in BVR (beyond vidual range) combat. This is what the F-22 was designed for.

You see we've all seen movies like "Top Gun" and "Iron Eagle" and when we think of a missile being fired we think "Break Right!" Well against short range missiles that works. Against longer range missiles such as the AMRAAM this doesn't work. When one fires an AMRAAM at you that's flying mach-4/5 you don't try to break right. Its got plenty of time to compensate, and you don't wait for it to get close then dodge, its moving to fast. What you do is go into erratic manuvers forcing the missile to use up fuel and speed to keep up. The goal being to either cause it to burn up its fuel, or lose so much speed matching your manuvers that you can dodge it.

The F-22 was designed with this purpose in mind. Get so close you can't escape the missiles, fire them, then leave. Dogfighting only as a last resort.

In BVR combat the F-22 has a clear advantage. Also keep in mind AIM-120 are more effective from an F-22, why? Despite what you see in the movies in most air to air combat the fighters stay close to the ground to stay out of the view of surface to air missiles. The stealth F-22 does not, and its high altitude and supercruising speed adds range and speed to the missiles.

There is no doubt in my mind the F-22 is capable of scoring a 10-1 ratio on the Su-35 based purely on the merits of the plane. However combat is much more complicated than this. Those fighting the F-22 will try to avoid engaging it unless they are over their home territory with SAM's, and multiple radars to help them. The americans will send F-35's and F/A-18's on Wild Weasel to degrade this capability. The determinant factor in the battle of Su-35 vs. F-22 is distance. From long range I don't think even the Su-35 could escape such a close missile launch. In a close range fight, both have thrust vectoring, and the Su has canards. However one thing often overlooked in the craft's manuverability is weight. Russian aircraft are big, mean, and heavy. American aircraft are lighter making them easier to move.

I think the Su-35 would likely retain the manuverability advantage which could give a skilled enough pilot an edge, but its getting that close that's the key. A favorite American tactic is "the grinder" where aircraft go high, launch AIM-120, then spiral downward presenting a confusing radar image. From here they retreat reform, and come back. A Su-35 would have to dodge the AIM-120's, then kick in his afterburners to catch the supercruising F-22 before it reforms. This leads to a short combat time.

For russian aircraft fighting the F-22 will depend on its ability to do the following. Find the F-22's avoid their missiles, close the distance, force them into a dogfight, and shoot them down before the Su or Mig "bingo's" on fuel. If a Su can force an F-22 into a dogfight he has a chance, without it, I don't like his odds.

As far as PAKFA vs. F-22, this is like comparing F-22 to F-35 JSF, aircraft designed on different parameters. A better comparison is the PAKFA versus the F-35 in which case unless the F-35 pilot is of much higher quality the PAKFA wins. Thanks to congressional penny-pinching the Air Force has been forced to dump more and more tasks on the F-35. This leads to compromise and to many have been made.

The F-35's better wait until the F-22's clean the skies out for them.

On Practical Note F35 or F22 wont have to compete the PAK FA ( in our skies ) , as neither of our neithbours will get it. And the Planes it will have to counter its far above all of them.

 

[Moscow]

PLEASE READ THIS before coming to conclusions.
there is already a thread in this section regarding this.



THE RESEARCH IS BY NOT A RUSSIAN company,if you want reviews from american defence analysists about j-35 you can visit the thread in this section.

The asymmetric aspect of Russia's counter stealth effort is visible. It is centred on the use of two metre or VHF band radar technology, and the networking and integration of other sensors, including passive emitter locating systems.

Most recent Russian effort in the development of early warning and surveillance radars has been in the two metre band. All of these new radars, and upgrade packages for legacy Soviet era radars, are digital and mostly solid state designs. Many include sophisticated adaptive processing techniques for rejection of ground clutter and jamming, a technology to date seen mostly in recent US radar designs.

The focus on the two metre radio band, used primarily for TV broadcasting, is that it largely defeats stealth airframe shaping techniques designed for the decimetre and centimetre band radar. The Russians are adamant that US stealthy fighter aircraft will appear as beachball sized radar targets in the VHF band, rather than marble sized targets. Raleigh scattering regime physics support the Russian view.

A key development is the emergence of new technology VHF designs, built for high mobility to support mobile SAM batteries. The NNIIRT 1L119 Nebo SVU is the first ever VHF band Active Electronically Steered Array (AESA), and is accurate enough to provide midcourse guidance for a missile. Russian thinking on counter-stealth technique is to fly the missile close enough for its seeker to lock on despite the stealthiness of the target, using datalinking from a stealth defeating sensor. This radar can be deployed and stowed in 45 minutes. The new ByeloRussian KBR Vostok E wins the mobility game with an 8 minute deploy and stow time, using a hydraulically folded and elevated antenna. This new VHF radar is also fully digital, solid state, and employs an innovative "Kharchenko" square ring antenna element design. Defeat of US stealth is a primary claim by its designers, who state the ability to track an F-117A at 190 nautical mile range.

The effort in VHF radar is paralleled by developments in Emitter Locating Systems, specifically the networked 85V6 Orion/Vega and Topaz Kolchuga systems. Users of the earlier Tamara / Trash Can system claimed the ability to track the position of US aircraft with emitting JTIDS/Link-16 terminals. Other counter-stealth technology includes a VHF band multistatic radar being developed by NNIIRT.

Other important developments include the 20 kiloWatt class N-035 Irbis E hybrid phased array radar for the Su-35BM, which outperforms all US legacy fighter radars, the APG-79 in the Super Hornet, and APG-81 in the F-35. Russia's first AESA radar, the Zhuk AE, is being scaled up for the Flanker, and promises performance in the class of the latest US APG-77(V)2 and APG-63(V)3 AESAs


full link:-http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-09.html


thanx.

 

[duhastmish]

I dont Think so, PAK FA is good but F22 is the Best !

sir
as we know - such statement wont hold no ground as we have almost no concrete and physical information about pak-fa, and f22 and f-35 are hard to compare. two different aircraft to serve different purpose.

f-35 is not in service and f-22 is in service so --- f22 is best current fighter

and yeh pak-fa t-50 will have a opponent in f-22 and f-35 - between russia and us of A
its a russian plane indian fighter will F.G.F.A
and as above my friend Moscow elaborated well , that was a american version of story- russian version will be different for the story.
thnakyou

 

[Chanakyaa]

Good article.
Thank for the Info.

 

[nitesh]

moscow, although I am not countering the article you posted. But sometimes I feel like these guys are behaving like a spoilt kid who is not getting an expensive toy (F 22) for there daddy.

 

[Chanakyaa]

sir
as we know - such statement wont hold no ground as we have almost no information about pak-fa, and f22 and f-35 are hard to compare. two different aircraft to serve different purpose.

Correct , I was updating my thread soon after that quick reply to make it more clear.

 

[Moscow]

moscow, although I am not countering the article you posted. But sometimes I feel like these guys are behaving like a spoilt kid who is not getting an expensive toy (F 22) for there daddy.

sir its true that the australians have their own agenda as do all the others.
but one of the main developments that russia has succeded in recent times is the radar technology some very brisk work is going on this regard and they are producing excellent results,very unlike the plasma stealth and other tech where work is progressing very slowly and there are no major breakthrough.

plus there are well known american defence analysts who hold russian air defence system the s-400 in very high regard.


thnx

 

[duhastmish]

sir

i think Russian will go great guns in defense research and development in near future as Mr Putin last yr gave a 200 billion defense budget which will be way higher in reality.
and development has triggered very high in nuclear submarines and mobile ICBMs field. i think with American going down in economy and Russian going up- the battle will be interesting in future.