Surgical strike was fake, we lost conventional deterrence against Pakistan, India not ready for war

[V. Makarov]

The only thing that is not ready for war is "Time". Time flows and create "readiness" out of thin air.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

If they are nor ready they should stop bluffing.

 

[PaulSimon]

A perfect answer for those Indians online and fan boys arguing that indian military budget is way bigger than Pakistan and Pakistan is so easy to defeat.A simple example is even if you are earning 10 lakhs a month if you don't know how to manage and utilize your resources you are doomed to fail. Yes comparatively our resources are less but we are trying to get the most out of them.

The only thing that is not ready for war is "Time". Time flows and create "readiness" out of thin air.

If they are nor ready they should stop bluffing.

Educated people in India do know that India is not ready for war. There is nothing knew here.

 

[Daghalodi]

Indians love to brag

 

[PaulSimon]

Indians love to brag

Sanghis not Indians

 

[Water Car Engineer]

India hasnt been optimal for war for long time - honestly when was it ever? So much time was wasted from the 90s to even the last congress terms. A lot of the things that are being bought were needed back in the 90s. Things make it worse with corruption, red tape, and geopolitics getting into the procurement process. Plus you have these monoply defence entities stifling it's growth, putting out low quality, expensive, and are non innovative, lethargic in nature. Pakistan have been lucky for a long time.

Good news is, things are changing. Maybe not the geopolitic part, now the private sector are on board, and I truly believe they can change how defence and aero are handled in India.

 

[Daghalodi]

Sanghis not Indians

Its time to lynch you desh drohis

 

[PaulSimon]

India hasnt been optimal for war for long time - honestly when was it ever? So much time was wasted from the 90s to even the last congress terms. A lot of the things that are being bought were needed back in the 90s. Things make it worse with corruption, red tape, and geopolitics getting into the procurement process. Plus you have these monoply defence entities stifling it's growth, putting out low quality, expensive, and are non innovative, lethargic in nature. Pakistan have been lucky for a long time.

Good news is, things are changing. Maybe not the geopolitic part, now the private sector are on board, and I truly believe they can change how defence and aero are handled in India.

I do not see any change.

There is no urgency being shown by this government even for critical procurement.

Kamov-226 , MMRCA, Super Sukhoi, S-400, RAFALE, Tejas MK1A etc.. all are delayed

 

[Water Car Engineer]

I do not see any change.

There is no urgency being shown by this government even for critical procurement.

Kamov-226 , MMRCA, Super Sukhoi, S-400, RAFALE, Tejas MK1A etc.. all are delayed

M777, K9 Thunder, Dhanush, LSP ATAGs, Sharag, Apache, Chinook, S400, initial batch Rafale, and several emergency procurement for things needed years and years ago were bought. The curse of bofors is completely routed. MMRCA 2 is a new program, will take some time as it's broken up now. MK1A and airbus/tata c295 are close to finishing out the deal. S400 deal is already signed first batch after 2020.

Kamov, not sure where this is at. I know they are closing out on finding all local assembly partners. Super Sukhoi - no idea. More Rafales - we'll see if that ever happens.

There's just a ridiculous amount of things in pipeline, like I said some of which dating to the 90s.

 

[PaulSimon]

M777, K9 Thunder, Apache, Chinook, S400, initial batch Rafale, and several emergency procurement for things needed years and years ago were bought. MMRCA 2 is a new program, will take some time as it's broken up now. MK1A and airbus/tata c295 are close to finishing out the deal. S400 deal is already signed first batch after 2020.

S-400 and Rafale are just on paper.

It will take another 5 years to operationalize S-400.

Indian enhancements for Rafale will take another 3 years.

Russia offered S-400 back in 2014 and Modi just sat on the offer for 5 years.

Same is happening with Super Sukhio and FGFA.

IGA for Kamov was signed over a year ago. Everything is ready but Modi will not close the deal.

BJP's performance with regards to defence is pathetic.

All the defence budget we had was spent on OROP to buy the votes and the result is that now there is no money for capital acquisitions.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

S-400 and Rafale are just on paper.

It will take another 5 years to operationalize S-400.

Indian enhancements for Rafale will take another 3 years.

It'll take time to optimize any new platform and work out how it'll do in India's doctrine. Whatever the case it's a signed deal and they're coming on board. I dont know wtf AK Antony and congress would've done.

And I dont know what you mean on paper - cause they're already flying in IAF colors

Russia offered S-400 back in 2014 and Modi just sat on the offer for 5 years.

Same is happening with Super Sukhio and FGFA.

Most have been a good reason for it.

As far as the FGFA the IAF is the one that doesnt want it. Super Su - I cant speak much on it.

IGA for Kamov was signed over a year ago. Everything is ready but Modi will not close the deal.

I dont know what's going on with this deal. HAL control this deal and it's own LUH. They're trying to manage both programs. Kamov is close to finding all industrial partners. That's the latest news. It's not a ready program to close on.

BJP's performance with regards to defence is pathetic.

No, I would call it fair. I went through congress and AK terms, those were pathetic.

 

[PaulSimon]

It'll take time to optimize any new platform and work out how it'll do in India's doctrine. Whatever the case it's a signed deal and they're coming on board. I dont know wtf AK Antony and congress would've done.

You may blame Congress/AKA for the MMRCA debacle but the blame for delay of S-400s squarely lies with the BJP.

Even for RAFALEs, Modi took a 1.5 years to close the G2G deal for which all the ground work except the price was already completed during UPA2.

Heck BJP did not even have a proper MoD for good part of their first term. That speaks volumes about their seriousness and priorities.

Most have been a good reason for it.

Had India closed the S-400s deal at the same time as China, It would have started receiving them by now. Now India is now behind Turkey.

Same was the case with Rafales. India could have closed the deal before Egypt and Qatar to receive them earlier.

And I dont know what you mean on paper - cause they're already flying in IAF colors

You mean in France? The first fighter would not land in India until next year and Indian enhancements would not be ready for another 3 years and add another couple of years to operationalize.

Rafales would not be ready for war until 2023-24.

I dont know what's going on with this deal. HAL control this deal and it's own LUH. They're trying to manage both programs. Kamov is close to finding all industrial partners. That's the latest news. It's not a ready program to close on.

IGA was signed in 2015.

Russians have already signed MOUs with Indian partners like Bharat forge, Dynamatics technologies etc. for assemblies (this was back in Aero India show earlier this year).

It is just the callousness of Modi government which is delaying the deal.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

You may blame Congress/AKA for the MMRCA debacle but the blame for delay of S-400s squarely lies with the BJP.

Purchasing something like the S400 take balls to begin with. Especially if you're trying buy high grade equipment from the USA as well having JV assembly lines. This is a strategic purchase and again India doesnt want to end up like Turkey and lose up on investment like they did with the F35 module production, spares for US equipment, or critical subsystems like engines for Tejas and future models. There are several US aero and defence offsets in India. I dont know all the things that happened in the backend, but it had more to do with just India and Russia.

Heck BJP did not even have a proper MoD for good part of their first term. That speaks volumes about their seriousness and priorities.

Hilarious isnt it? And they still managed to pushed through M777, K9 Thunder, Dhanush, LSP ATAGs, Sharag, Apache, Chinook, S400, initial batch Rafale, and several emergency procurement. All of which should have been done in the two congress rule.

Hell, they broke the stupid artillery curse from the fucking 80s!! With K9, M777, Sharag, Dhanush, and LSP ATAGS!! K9, M777 bring in brand spanking new production and testing plant for the private sector!

Same was the case with Rafales. India could have closed the deal before Egypt and Qatar to receive them earlier.

Can you even compare these two? The French have to find ways to infuse offsets into India again

You mean in France? The first fighter would not land in India until next year and Indian enhancements would not ready for another 3 years and add another could of years to operationalize.

Rafales would not be ready for war until 2023-24.

Again, it's not on paper, it flying whether it be in France or in India. 1+ year or not at least they broke the unending grid lock between HAL, Dassault, and MoD. Something Congress couldnt even comprehend. Something they also might have been stuck on, but didnt.

 

[Longhorn]

India hasnt been optimal for war for long time - honestly when was it ever? So much time was wasted from the 90s to even the last congress terms. A lot of the things that are being bought were needed back in the 90s. Things make it worse with corruption, red tape, and geopolitics getting into the procurement process. Plus you have these monoply defence entities stifling it's growth, putting out low quality, expensive, and are non innovative, lethargic in nature. Pakistan have been lucky for a long time.

Good news is, things are changing. Maybe not the geopolitic part, now the private sector are on board, and I truly believe they can change how defence and aero are handled in India.

How and in what sense, in your opinion, has Pakistan been lucky?

 

[PaulSimon]

Purchasing something like the S400 take balls to begin with. Especially if you're trying buy high grade equipment from the USA as well. This is a strategic purchase and again India doesnt want to end up like Turkey and lose up on investment like they did with the F35 module production. There are several US aero and defence offsets in India.

Comparing India and Turkey is not appropriate.

Unlike Turkey, India was neither part of NATO nor a partner in the F-35 program.

Also, CAATSA was brought in 2017. Had India closed the S-400 back in 2014/2015, this whole talk of avoiding CAATSA sanctions would have been irrelevant. Modi just bungled this whole procurement.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3364

Can you even compare these two? The French have to find ways to infuse offsets into India again

Sorry I did not get you. How are French deals with Egypt and Qatar tied to French Offsets for India?