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Surgical or no Surgical strike? a difficult way to agreed upon.

Fireurimagination

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So, India publicly said that it has conducted a surgical strike across the LOC and targeted terrorist launch pads (India made it clear that the strikes were against terrorist and not against PA). Also India stated that India didn’t violate anything as the strikes were in Pakistan held Kashmir which India claims and not across the international border. India briefed the P5 and envoys of 22 countries about the strikes. There has been zero escalation and zero international repercussions or condemnation until now.

Now I was just wondering that with a $100 billion modernization program in the coming decade the conventional disparity between the Indian and Pakistani armed forces will only grow, especially in the case of the two air forces. With procurement of predator drones, S400 and Rafael etc some believe that the disparity would be like that of the two Navies now. So, what if in future India says it will strike the terrorist training camps or launch pads from air across LOC periodically and is more than happy to fight and give a bloody nose to PA due to it’s massive conventional superiority.

What are the options for Pakistan/ISI then?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ikes-Syed-Akbaruddin/articleshow/54622876.cms
 
Even Pakistan didn't condemn. So take it as a positive gesture as well. But why should any country condemn it when it didn't happen. There is no point of condemnation then.

Well what did India brief P5 and 22 envoys then God knows, Pakistan did make all sought of noises but nothing more. We do believe that the bluff has been called now. Rising the escalation ladder is something India still doesn't want but in a decade or so even that threat will become obsolete and then India can very much do what it wants. The only issue was political will which Modi has shown more than enough now, in fact it helps him on many levels
 
Even Pakistan didn't condemn. So take it as a positive gesture as well. But why should any country condemn it when it didn't happen. There is no point of condemnation then.
Thats where the problem, no body is going to listen to that. jihadis will be rearing to go after India. Any attack by pakistan now will simply reinforce the Indian claim. But no attack will also lead to problem with jihadis taking things into their own hands.

Best option for Pakistan is to do surgical strike in return..
that will be the stupid mistake they can ever do. It will be an open admission.
 
Well what did India brief P5 and 22 envoys then God knows, Pakistan did make all sought of noises but nothing more. We do believe that the bluff has been called now. Rising the escalation ladder is something India still doesn't want but in a decade or so even that threat will become obsolete and then India can very much do what it wants. The only issue was political will which Modi has shown more than enough now, in fact it helps him on many levels

Pakistan, China, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and many other countries didn't feel a need to comment on this subject. Even Pakistan, who is supposedly attacked is silent and has only rubbished Indian claims - no condemnation. Indian Rep. was call to lodge protest for the cross-border firing in which Pakistan lost 2 soldiers. That is it.

Militarily, Pakistan is rather contented as it has killed 8 soldiers and captured one. Three Indian posts are also wiped out and that was a sufficient response from its side.
 
When there is no Surgical Strike, then why did Pakistan ran to U.N and what for.

Its funny that Pakistan now in Delimea -- If they except, they have to respond against India, which they don't have the capability and then they have to except that those terrorists were supported by PA for the cross border terrorism.

If they reject, they loose the option to do retalliate.

Kissiai Billi Khamba hi Nochegi
 
http://www.defencenews.org/2016/10/pakistan-not-getting-support-at-un-over.html

... India's Permanent Representative to the UN Ambassador Syed Akbaruddin further dismissed the remark made by Ban Ki-moon's spokesperson that UN military observers have not directly witnessed any firing across the Line of Control (LoC).

UN chief's spokesperson Stephane Dujarric had earlier said that the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) "has not directly observed any firing across the LoC related to the latest incidents", a reference to the surgical strikes conducted by India on September 29 targeting terror launch pads in Azad Kashmir. ...

http://www.defencenews.org/2016/10/pakistan-not-getting-support-at-un-over.html

From the horses mouth.
 
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When there is no Surgical Strike, then why did Pakistan ran to U.N and what for.

Its funny that Pakistan now in Delimea -- If they except, they have to respond against India, which they don't have the capability and then they have to except that those terrorists were supported by PA for the cross border terrorism.

If they reject, they loose the option to do retalliate.

Kissiai Billi Khamba hi Nochegi


The same modi did in past.now it is our turn :)
 
The same modi did in past.now it is our turn :)

You have been doing what you can from last 2 decades.

What best you should do is enjoy the propaganda video feed by your media, and leave us to enjoy the dealth of the Scum terrorists, so that Hafiz Sayeed and Co could do Janaza every Friday in Lahore, and ranting.
 
From the horses mouth.

"UN chief's spokesperson Stephane Dujarric had earlier said that the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) "has not directly observed any firing across the LoC related to the latest incidents","

So if UNMOGIP did not directly observe and firing across LOC (from their offices in Muzaffarabad) does that mean there was not firing on the LOC, then how did 2 Pakistani soldiers die?

Same logic applies for this cross border operation on Pakistani side of LOC.
 
000_GM0CK.jpg

An Indian paramilitary trooper in Srinagar, Sept. 29. Tauseef Mustafa—AFP



THE URI RESPONSE AND MODI’S COMMITMENT TRAP.
In the intervening hours of Sept. 28 and 29, the Indian Army attempted shallow incursions at four points on Kashmir’s Line of Control.

At two points, they were detected before they could cross over, were fired upon, stopped, and thereafter the points settled into an exchange of small arms, light weapons, and mortar fire. At the two other points in the south, they came very close to the Line of Control and there was direct engagement. Units on the ground, dug into their defenses still, report direct engagement, with at least 14 Indian troops killed, while losing two noncommissioned officers to hostile mortar fire.

So far, that’s the information from Pakistan’s side. Officially, it has given no information on Indian casualties. The narrative is simple: the Indians opened fire and the Army responded effectively. In the coming days, we should expect more information.

Predictably, the 24/7 news cycle was hogged by this Indian attempt. India’s director-general of Military Operations, Lt. Gen. Ranbir Singh, and the spokesperson of the Ministry of External Affairs held a joint press conference in New Delhi—“joint” only to the extent that the spokesperson opened the presser and handed it over to Singh, who, after reading out a statement in English and Hindi, did not take any questions. That, however, did not prevent the Indian media, barring exceptions, to declare this a huge event, one that constituted a befitting response to the Uri attack and a paradigm shift, i.e., that the Modi government will not sit on its rear end while Pakistan continues its alleged terrorist attacks on India. The din of ‘celebrations’ since the presser is incredible, though not unpredictable.

What should one make of this? What did India achieve? This is what Pakistan should be concerned about. And this is precisely what is being ignored here, with focus only on an attempt that clearly failed in military terms.

There are two levels at which the current Indian government is playing: domestic and international. At home, Prime Minister Narendra Modi arrived on the scene with his broad chest, metaphor for a dynamic leader who could do what his predecessors, especially those from the Congress party, could not do. A man who has a tryst with destiny, he is to turn India into an economic and military giant. Then Kashmir erupted. It is now the 85th day of an uprising that refuses to go away despite terrible state repression. Relations with Pakistan, already strained, have spiraled. The icing on the cake was the Uri attack, a major setback for the Indian Army. Pro forma, Pakistan was declared complicit within hours of Uri. Modi’s constituency began talking war, even nuclear war. His political opposition hit back, pooh-poohing his chest. Something needed to be done, but what?

The dust and heat of mobilization circa 2001-2002 is a nonstarter. Aerial strikes are a desire which first needs pigs to fly. Missile strikes are a dangerous escalation because who can determine whether an incoming missile has a tactical or a strategic warhead?

Now, imagine yourself in the Situation Room with Modi and his team. There’s the option of covert war, which India is already waging in Balochistan and through the Afghan National Directorate of Security in Pakistan’s tribal areas. That can and will be ratcheted up. But the problem with covert war is that you can’t own up to it. You might even ‘avenge’ something, but if you declare it, you lose deniability. So, while that front remains hot, it is cold politics domestically. The terrible political question of what Modi has done to ‘punish’ Pakistan remains. This is a particularly nasty question in view of the 2017 polls in Uttar Pradesh.

You decide on a course of action that can be packaged and marketed to both the domestic audiences and the international interlocutors. That is where “surgical strikes” come in. As I noted, Singh’s copy doesn’t seem to have been drafted at the Army HQ or the Military Operations Directorate. It had a visible South Block stamp on it. “Surgical strikes” were conducted “along [not across] the Line of Control” on “terrorist launch pads.” The operation has ceased [after achieving its objective]. “I spoke with Pakistan’s [director-general of Military Operations] and informed them of the action taken by us [or words to that effect].”

Let’s deconstruct this narrative: it was not a military operation against the Pakistan Army but an antiterrorism operation against terrorists—this fits the Indian hand perfectly in the Western antiterrorism glove. It assures the West (read: the U.S.) that India has no intention of escalating with Pakistan while throwing in for good measure the ‘fact’ that this antiterrorism operation was conducted on territory controlled by Pakistan. Corollary: Pakistan supports and encourages terrorism from its soil against India and is in clear violation of its 2004 commitment. This last bit was clearly spelled out in Singh’s statement.

The Singh statement, by mentioning Uri, strengthened India’s original position—also stated by its foreign minister, Sushma Swaraj, at the U.N. General Assembly—that Kashmir is troubled because of Pakistan. In doing this, it takes the gaze away from the Kashmiris’ right to self-determination as well as the state repression by India to focusing the issue as an India-Pakistan problem and one that is underpinned by Pakistan’s alleged sponsorship of terrorism.

It should be evident that Singh gave Modi a winner. The statement threw in the term “surgical strikes” and balanced it with “along the LOC.” In a charged partisan atmosphere, with a media waiting to jump on just about anything, few people have the time or the inclination for nuances. The Indian Army also knew that what it did will not be escalated by Pakistan because the latter has no immediate reason to do so. An action, desiring shallow incursions, which was effectively stopped in its tracks doesn’t need to be escalated.

That said, the trend cannot entirely be predicted. The mood can be read two ways: satisfied or craving for more. Going by the cacophony in India, it seems to have settled for more. That creates a worse commitment trap than the one from which Modi has tried to extricate himself.

Meanwhile, Pakistan has to read the situation at all levels, not just at the level of any military response. The central point of Islamabad’s strategy should be to bring back into sharp salience the Kashmiris and their struggle. This is precisely what tends to get lost when the issue is pushed back because of heightened India-Pakistan tensions. How to go about that requires new thinking.

Haider is editor of national-security affairs at Capital TV. He was a Ford Scholar at the Program in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution, Washington, D.C. He tweets @ejazhaider

http://newsweekpakistan.com/after-the-surgical-strikes/
 
A surgical strike operation by Indian forces begs the question of the military’s capability to launch such an attack.

thediplomat_2016-08-11_18-50-32-36x36.jpg

By Shawn Snow
September 30, 2016


On Thursday India claimed it had conducted a “surgical strike” in Pakistan controlled Kashmir across the Line of Control (LoC). Pakistan denied that India carried out a surgical strike and claimed that two of its soldiers were killed in cross border fire.

“The notion of surgical strike linked to alleged terrorists’ bases is an illusion being deliberately generated by India to create false effects,” the Pakistani military said in a statement.

India’s director general of military operations, Lt. Gen. Ranbir Singh, publicly announced the strike. He stated, “Based on receiving specific and credible inputs that some terrorist teams had positioned themselves at launch pads along the Line of Control to carry out infiltration and conduct terrorist strikes inside Jammu and Kashmir and in various metros in other states, the Indian army conducted surgical strikes at several of these launch pads to pre-empt infiltration by terrorists.”

India has provided few details of the operation but sources indicate that the “surgical strikes” consisted of a heliborne unit and Special Forces that infiltrated the LoC and conducted assaults on seven suspected terrorist launch pads that were two to three km beyond the LoC.

Throughout the day Pakistan has continued to deny any surgical strike took place. “There has been no surgical strike by India, instead there had been cross border fire initiated and conducted by India which is existential phenomenon,” the Pakistan Army said in a statement.

A surgical strike operation by Indian forces begs the question of whether Indian forces have the capability to launch such a sophisticated and coordinated attack.

Surgical strikes can be conducted through airborne or artillery based precision guided strikes or ground force based assaults; both of which require sophisticated intelligence collection, platforms to conduct collections, and surveillance of target sites and objectives.

India is still on the cusp of building a sophisticated and modernized asymmetrical capability to conduct counterterror operations, while much of its forces are still organized and trained on Cold War models.

Over the last decade, India has spearheaded efforts to modernize her military to include domestic production of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Rostum I and Rostum II could provide India with an air platform capable of surgical strikes, long loiter times for target surveillance, and intelligence collection. However, these platforms are still in development and Rostum II just began test trials this summer. India’s drone development program is still in its infancy.

As for artillery, in 2015, India and BAE finalized contracts for the sale and development of new M777 155 mm howitzer system, capable of firing the new Excalibur GPS guided shell. However, development and productionof the artillery system is not slated to begin until 2018.

India does currently field a Russian GPS guided munition called the Krasnopol, though its precision fire support is within a 30-40 km radius and its accuracy is far less when compared to the new Excalibur shell.

As far as precision strike missile capability, India has recently acquired the U.S. anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) Hellfire, which has frequently been used for targeting operations by U.S. forces. India is currently producing a domestic ATGM called the Helina, a helicopter launched precision strike missile, though this missile is still undergoing testing.

In other words, much of India’s asymmetrical warfare capability is still being developed and tested. The examples above are by no means an exhaustive list but it certainly details a capacity not fully developed by Indian forces.

Furthermore, a cross border air raid by either heliborne assets or drones would still prove exceedingly difficult as Pakistan boasts an incredibly impressive air defense system. Pakistan controlled Kashmir is a high threat area for shoulder fired surface to air missiles, some of which have found their way into the hands of militant groups. Any air operation over the territory would be under threat from these weapon systems.

India has released little detail on the operation; however if India in fact carried out a cross border surgical strike on terrorist facilities and not Pakistani military posts, it would be a paradigm shift in India’s war against terrorist and militant organizations. It would also boast the perception that India’s asymmetrical warfare capability is further along than many may perceive.

Reference: http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/is-india-capable-of-a-surgical-strike-in-pakistan-controlled-kashmir/
 

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