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Sunni ISIS murdered 500 Yazidi, make 300 women sex slave

@waz,

So what is happening is Sunni's are dividing among themselves to distance themselves from a part of their regressive bunch. This is unique to Islam though. I don't see Christians divorcing their extreme right wing or for e.g. Hindu's divorcing their right wing or the Buddhists divorcing their right wing.

This, I think is the reason why Muslims aren't able to get to grips with the extremist elements within their community. I assume divorcing doesn't help, disowning them will not go the issue go away...what's your take?


There is one way to handle this phenomenon instead: to take it on head-long. Which kind of thing has been manifested time and again in (nearly) every major Religion of the world.....through a Reformist Movement. Onne does not see that happening here. Reformist Movements have in fact contributed to Religious Thinking and have helped Religions to grow more Resilient in themselves.
So why not here?
 
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Thank you Popeye my friend for your support and kind words. Sadly what you say is true, but he battle rages on.

My friend and fellow human being: the 'real battle' is within us. That is the only battle that matters and that victory is the only victory that one must aspire to. All the rest is a "chimera" used and misused frequently.
 
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There is one way to handle this phenomenon instead: to take it on head-long. Which kind of thing has been manifested time and again in (nearly) every major Religion of the world.....through a Reformist Movement. Onne does not see that happening here. Reformist Movements have in fact contributed to Religious Thinking and have helped Religions to grow more Resilient in themselves.
So why not here?

I doubt that's possible in Islam, many Muslim countries follow blasphemy, apostasy laws and talk of any reforms or dilution is akin to blasphemy which means the death penalty. There might be debates on it, but the Mullah's word is final and the Mullah wouldn't want any dilution of his power.
 
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When did you suddenly pick up a sectarian hate for Sunnis specifically?

Why that specific sect?

You got a negative rating for that post by the way.

@Developereo, any ideas?

What I dont get is who the hell calls shit as Sunni??

Sadly to lick their own wounds people are willing to call anyone anything and justify it by calling it some sect name....

Were these people true they would have reported bastard claiming to be Sunni have done so and so!
 
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Disgusting savages that deserve the sword.

As for Sunni, don't you mean Salafist, Wahabi and Jihadist.

I'm Sunni and a Sufi, like most Sufis are and we don't do this my friend.

agreed. also if you know lux de veritas, you know where he comes from.
 
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They are nutjobs - there's no denying that, they need to be put down for the sake of all of us. What needs to be established is the method of going about it?

The apprehension here is that over the last decade or so, none have been quelled satisfactorily. If there isn't a military solution to it then what else? I fear that there is no ideological solution either.

Because in each of these efforts, there was never a proper quelling of such movements. At any point, there were efforts to save the remnants for use at another day.
 
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I doubt that's possible in Islam, many Muslim countries follow blasphemy, apostasy laws and talk of any reforms or dilution is akin to blasphemy which means the death penalty. There might be debates on it, but the Mullah's word is final and the Mullah wouldn't want any dilution of his power.

Concepts of Blasphemy, Apostasy etc. are the easiest ways to suppress debate and forestall Reformism.
When those Concepts get Legal sanction; then it gets worse, it just eliminates any chance of 'evolved thought processes' which are inherent to Reform.
Interestingly Religions are products of evolved thought processes too, but that gets denied sometimes and by some.

Because in each of these efforts, there was never a proper quelling of such movements. At any point, there were efforts to save the remnants for use at another day.

@Oscar; come to think of it: is it a battle on the body OR is it a battle for the mind?
OR both?
That may help to decide how to tackle it.
 
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Because in each of these efforts, there was never a proper quelling of such movements. At any point, there were efforts to save the remnants for use at another day.

Politics mixed with religion mixed with strategic compulsions, I get what you are saying. Till a rival state supports an insurgency movement, there is a remote chance of putting it down completely. Khalistan movement and LTTE were routed because their supporters backed out.

But AQ structure is global and transcends regions and continents. There's much more there than any strategic compulsions.

Concepts of Blasphemy, Apostasy etc. are the easiest ways to suppress debate and forestall Reformism.
When those Concepts get Legal sanction; then it gets worse, it just eliminates any chance of 'evolved thought processes' which are inherent to Reform.
Interestingly Religions are products of evolved thought processes too, but that gets denied sometimes and by some.

Mixing religion with state affairs and judiciary will make it impossible to bring any reforms, the state laws itself suppress any dissidence or reforms to the religion.
 
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@Oscar; come to think of it: is it a battle on the body OR is it a battle for the mind?
OR both?
That may help to decide how to tackle it.

This is a battle for the mind, plain and simple. After all, the mind is what controls the body. The problem will remain, as long as it does so that those with balanced thought remain on using balanced/apprehensive measures to counter the ideologies that run rampant.
 
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This is a battle for the mind, plain and simple. After all, the mind is what controls the body. The problem will remain, as long as it does so that those with balanced thought remain on using balanced/apprehensive measures to counter the ideologies that run rampant.

Well, that is precisely what I was leading to. Its not really military, but idealogical; to (over)simplify it.
Eventually it will need idealogical methods to counter/correct it. But that is the most difficult part; IF the concept of evolved/evolving thought process(es) remains unacceptable.
 
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Politics mixed with religion mixed with strategic compulsions, I get what you are saying. Till a rival state supports an insurgency movement, there is a remote chance of putting it down completely. Khalistan movement and LTTE were routed because their supporters backed out.

But AQ structure is global and transcends regions and continents. There's much more there than any strategic compulsions.


Mixing religion with state affairs and judiciary will make it impossible to bring any reforms, the state laws itself suppress any dissidence or reforms to the religion
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The LTTE and Khalistani movement were different from each other in character, though the 'rallying-cries' seem similar. The LTTE relied on threat(s) to Community/Ethnicity, religion had nothing to do with it. While Khalistanis used the Religious Group "handle", but the common thread was rallying/instigating 'groups of people' using the spectre of perceived threats.

Now about the underlined part:
Mixing Religion with Politics makes for a dangerous enough "cocktail" as it is, but when the State Affairs and Jurisprudence get mixed up with Religion; then that may get to be far more devastating.
Then the State can use (even false or misleading perspectives of) Religion as a "shield" to cover injustice or mis-governance.

OR

Other Counter-State Forces may sell another (false or misleading) narrative using Religion in order to usurp power from the State itself.

We have seen (and can see) both processes at work around us.
 
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Politics mixed with religion mixed with strategic compulsions, I get what you are saying. Till a rival state supports an insurgency movement, there is a remote chance of putting it down completely. Khalistan movement and LTTE were routed because their supporters backed out.

But AQ structure is global and transcends regions and continents. There's much more there than any strategic compulsions.



Mixing religion with state affairs and judiciary will make it impossible to bring any reforms, the state laws itself suppress any dissidence or reforms to the religion.

Its not an insurgency that is the issue. It is the ideology, the ideology has to be wiped clean. If one gets off the Caliphate horse the other one steps on it. Because there is NO one out there with a united and organized voice saying that this is wrong and here is the textual proof of your folly. First, you cannot prove or disprove religious belief. Quite frankly because unlike someone claiming they see wormholes on earth, you cant set up scientific tests and use equipment to try and ascertain or at least give a benefit of the doubt to the findings.

Second, lets say you do have proof and contextual concept. How do you then get a maniac to disagree. Take this excerpt(used by extremists Militants and naysayers of Islam alike).

9_5.png

Which if translated by Pickthall read thus.

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Now people like the ISIS can use this to easily justify what they are doing. Even though there is much context and time-space into this verse and chapter. Lets say you were able to give a complete discourse on this chapter by showing how it was revealed during the events preceding and leading to the conquest of Makkah and on an act by act basis between the Opponents of Islam and Muslims after the violations of treaties made earlier. So if one was to use plain intelligence, it would make sense to attack ,arrest and kill treaty violators who continue to attack a state. Yet , in this case there are always those who will insist that this is standalone and hence means that they have the right to infer that a person killed in Gaza justifies the chopping off heads of Christians and Yazidis in Iraq. How do you convince that person of the context and theological significance of this when they are not willing to budge from their stance that this is a standalone argument that cannot be nullified if taken out of context. The same way you cannot convince a critique of Islam of the same fact.

To promote such an understanding means arguing and debating with bureaucratic orders of "certified" clergy that refused to move into the 21th century by fear of losing their status in society. Then you stand to argue with the drawing room preachers who lie on Sofas and talk of religion. Once you get past those and are able to say even bring a Fatwa. What good is a fatwa against an AK-47 armed man who in his head has only profited by following his view of the scripture and is gaining victory upon victory. For him it is easy to shove his rifle in your face and as a collective religious society the innate doubt that God may indeed be on his side will take over(or that god is punishing us) and the very idea of opposing him will die out right there and then.

So the problem then returns to this singular issue of not having enough confidence in what you believe in to oppose those that are fanatical in their beliefs. Let this be clear as my opinion(for whatever minuscule weight it carries). There is no silent Moderate Majority of Muslims that oppose these ideas.
There are those that support them but due to their own inability to do something at that time stick to places like Defence.pk.
There are those that dont support them but due to their own inability(be it from genuine reasons or that they simply are not bothered about it enough to take time out from their 9-5) cant do anything about it.
There are those that are apathetic enough to simply not care at all.
And then there are those who are actively supporting/involved with them and all parallel militant and Quasi militant ideologies.
And the more I see it, the Ratio is not the idea of 10-20% extremists and 80% moderates and so on. But if the aforementioned categories are taken , then its more around 20/20/40/20. Extremism is a growing problem that has its roots with idea and ideologies within Islam, but these have all been tainted by political ideals and the social causes that feed them .

@Capt.Popeye @Hyperion @Armstrong @scorpionx
 
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OR

Other Counter-State Forces may sell another (false or misleading) narrative using Religion in order to usurp power from the State itself.

We have seen (and can see) both processes at work around us.

This is what's happening, the counter forces as you mentioned is the one that caters to the majority part of the population and it wants power all to itself. For e.g. Shia maliki is dead against sharing power with Kurds and the Sunni's and vice versa where Sunni's rule.
 
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When did you suddenly pick up a sectarian hate for Sunnis specifically?

Why that specific sect?

You got a negative rating for that post by the way.

@Developereo, any ideas?

Sunnis are the majority (70%) of Muslims and are more geographically dispersed than are Shias so, if you took a random sampling of troublemakers in the Muslim world, you would end up picking a Sunni. However, I would not extrapolate that to mean that Sunnis are more prone to extremism.

The fact is that much of the bloodletting in the Muslim world is just proxy wars by rich and power-hungry puppeteers. Since Islam doesn't have a central authority, like a Pope or an Archbishop, it's easy for charismatic individuals to claim the mantle of authority and brainwash people into violence.
 
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SO all Gazans are your daddys?

Every Retarded Indian and his or her obsession withtrying to justify Israeli slaughter of Palestinians. Even when the topic has nothing to do with it.

Same question retards working for call center 'defending Israeli aggressions' are running around with (Why are you saying That some How Gaza tragedy is Bad cause it was Israel killing Innocent unarmed people and no one is talking about ISIS.No pee for a brain Both are tragedy and are being discussed on different threads.

Choke on this even the Jews are against the slaughter in Israel.

Jewish marcher said he was appalled at the "horrific" images of dead bodies and bombed-out homes being beamed out of Gaza.

But Dan Rosenberg, 43, said while many of his Jewish friends felt the same, they were too afraid to join the march for fear of being abused.

The father of two from north London, said: "It is horrific what is going on in Gaza. It is collective punishment. I don't know how any human being can stand back while this is happening
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Thousands march in Gaza protest - Telegraph
 
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