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Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

But PAKFA will have better maneuverability & indeed better avionic and situation awareness compare to Raptor.
That is questionable at best.

Well I read somewhere that PAKFA will use plasma stealth, is ti true & can anyone exlain.
There are a lot of speculations about 'plasma stealth'. Most of them nonsensical and practically defy the laws of physics. The most popular one is that the aircraft would be enveloped in a cloud/shield of plasma. Kinda funny on how this could be maintained in flight.

The most technically plausible explanation is that of the plasma antenna...

Plasma antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A plasma antenna is a type of radio antenna currently in development in which plasma is used instead of the metal elements of a traditional antenna. A plasma antenna can be used for both transmission and reception. Although plasma antennas have only become practical in recent years, the idea is not new; a patent for an antenna using the concept was granted to J Hettinger in 1919.
An array of conformal plasma antenna throughout the aircraft's outer surface would absorb any impinging radar signals of any freq, amplitude, and pulse characteristics -- COMPLETELY. The aircraft does not have to be covered in antennas. They just need to be formed and arrayed at strategic locations on the body and with no less precision than 'stealth' body shaping itself. If one antenna received a portion of the impinging radar signal at any spot, two or more plasma antennas in the local area will be needed to receive the rest of the beam and whatever leftover will be too weak to be of any value to the seeking radar. That is the design of 'plasma stealth'.

Keep in mind that if this kind of information is publicly available, what do you think we are working on?

The main advantage of F-22 is its ability to hit the targets before they can see it. What if some new a/c manage to achieve certain degree of stealth ( or say F-15 ) and come in WVR rage if F-22. Will it( f-22) be still superior ??? @gambit @sancho @Oscar
Yes...

http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041725
"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."
So according to personal testimonies, even within visual range, the Raptor can still present an extremely difficult radar lock target.
 
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The main advantage of F-22 is its ability to hit the targets before they can see it. What if some new a/c manage to achieve certain degree of stealth ( or say F-15 ) and come in WVR rage if F-22. Will it( f-22) be still superior ??? @gambit @sancho @Oscar

If you can sift through the reports all over the internet.. regarding the dogfights between the F-22 and EF.. it seems that the EF and F-22 were quite evenly matched in WVR. Specifically due to the fact that neither employed a HOBS system..the turning performance of both aircraft are close.
 
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plasma stealth is still in preliminary testing stage only and will take a long long time if it ever gets operational.

Source is pretty much trustworthy.:tongue:

The main advantage of F-22 is its ability to hit the targets before they can see it. What if some new a/c manage to achieve certain degree of stealth ( or say F-15 ) and come in WVR rage if F-22. Will it( f-22) be still superior ??? @gambit @sancho @Oscar

Raptor's maneuverability is also undoubted for now. It indeed also have advantage in WVR fight against fighter like F15. Against PAKFA.....................it will be pretty interesting.....:tup:
 
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So according to personal testimonies, even within visual range, the Raptor can still present an extremely difficult radar lock target.

That's your conclusion, not what he said! If we talk about dogfights with guns only, an F15 won't be a match for the F22, but try the same with EF or Rafale and things get different. Increase is to IR missiles and HMS, both not available for the F22 at the moment and things get pretty bad!
The main advantage of the F22 is stealth and it is most likely the best available fighter in this regard. It also will be far superior in terms of maneuverability compared to most legacy fighter designs, but WVR with modern fighter designs and capabilities is something that the F22 don't wants for sure. One reason why the coming upgrades are important to maintain it's edge!


Specifically due to the fact that neither employed a HOBS system..the turning performance of both aircraft are close.

The EF had HMS and even if simulated, they must have simulated the use of IRIS-T.

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/df_3029_neuburg_18-07-12.jpg

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/df_3030_neuburg_18-07-12.jpg
 
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That is questionable at best.

Better maneuverability was claimed by Sukhio. On Avionic front, what I think.............Raptor also have better avionics, but now bez they stop production, no upgraded version..........thats why I thought about better avionics.....................you know Raptor still dont have IRST, which will be important assest for fighter as low RCS of new fighters.


There are a lot of speculations about 'plasma stealth'. Most of them nonsensical and practically defy the laws of physics. The most popular one is that the aircraft would be enveloped in a cloud/shield of plasma. Kinda funny on how this could be maintained in flight.

The most technically plausible explanation is that of the plasma antenna...

Plasma antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Keep in mind that if this kind of information is publicly available, what do you think we are working on?

Really not............:tdown:
They dont need to open it for whole fight, rather than just emphasis on short time interval.......i.e. use it like a counter measure........when fighter got missile lock. Also it can be used for to give false location of fighter for several seconds which is enough to confuse the enemy and gain relative advantages.

That tech will not come in initial fighters which will produced before 2017. While I also have doubt that Russia will give that tech to IAF........:undecided:

So far on plasma stealth...........
Lockheed Martin demo it in F15,
Dassault & Thales demo it in Mirage 2000,
Sukhoi test it in Su27.:angel:
 
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If you can sift through the reports all over the internet.. regarding the dogfights between the F-22 and EF.. it seems that the EF and F-22 were quite evenly matched in WVR. Specifically due to the fact that neither employed a HOBS system..the turning performance of both aircraft are close.

A direct answer please. Yes or NO
 
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That's your conclusion, not what he said!
It is what he said. Not so much in those words, but the meaning was clear.

If we talk about dogfights with guns only, an F15 won't be a match for the F22, but try the same with EF or Rafale and things get different.
Ever seen the HUD in guns? Plenty of them in Youtube. See those lines and box tracking the target?

F-16 Dogfight Over the Aegean - YouTube

Those came from radar, so even with guns only, radar information is still vital in helping the pilot on where to aim, whether it is missile or not. So within visual range, if the Raptor proved to be difficult regarding radar lock for missiles, it will be the same for guns.

Increase is to IR missiles and HMS, both not available for the F22 at the moment and things get pretty bad!
That is why we have flares.

The main advantage of the F22 is stealth and it is most likely the best available fighter in this regard. It also will be far superior in terms of maneuverability compared to most legacy fighter designs, but WVR with modern fighter designs and capabilities is something that the F22 don't wants for sure. One reason why the coming upgrades are important to maintain it's edge!
That is a generalized statement that is applicable to all. No one wants to be in that situation.
 
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It is what he said. Not so much in those words, but the meaning was clear.

As I said that's your conclusion, but he don't specify which weaponsystem he means, nor how the F22 denies it, because he can also mean that the F22 was too maneuverable to get in position to put a weaponsystem on it. That's exactly what happend during the dogfights of the Rafale with the F22, because it wasn't able to outturn the Raptor and didn't get a lock. The difference was, the Rafale was maneuverable enough to not get killed either (at least most of the time), while legacay fighters like the teens (especially flown by exchange pilots) don't hold their own anymore against modern high maneuverable fighters.


Ever seen the HUD in guns? Plenty of them in Youtube. See those lines and box tracking the target?

Yeah, like those of the F22 in the Rafale HUD

Those came from radar, so even with guns only, radar information is still vital in helping the pilot on where to aim, whether it is missile or not.

Which again might be the case for US legacy fighters which are dependent on radar only, but not for modern fighters with advanced EW sensors, or IRST...Rafale for instance can provide tracking data to it's weapon systems gathered by FSO and SPECTRA, without the need of the radar.
So claiming F22 is not detectable even in close distance, based on vague statements of an exchange pilot includes a lot of speculation.

That is why we have flares.

:D

That is a generalized statement that is applicable to all. No one wants to be in that situation.

No it's not, it makes clear that the F22 will have more problems against modern fighter designs, or techs compared to legacy fighters and that the advantage then will remain to BVR only.


Btw, the latest EF Magazin has some interesting remarks and infos about the Red Flag combats against the F22.

The combats took the current limitations of the F22 to account and were not done at maximum altitude.
The Germans said, that the US pilots were impressed and didn't expected the EF to turn that aggressively, something that was reported by US pilots quiet often about the Eurocanards. They also said that the F22 looses too much energy at slow speeds and made an interesting comparison about it's combat capability!
According to them the Raptor is like a sniper, that don't want to be seen and kills at long range, but still carries a knife for close combats. However, that this is not the area he wants to end up and if that happens, he / the Raptor might have done something wrong.
Of course said with much pride of the results and even in close combats the F22 should remain superior against 90% of current generation fighters, but not entirely wrong either.

In future stealth fighters will meet stealth fighters, which deletes the BVR advantage to a big extend and makes close combats more interesting again. That will be an area where Pak Fa / FGFA might have an edge, thanks to the aim of high flight performance and maneuverability, modern passive sensors and at least upgraded WVR missiles.
 
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In future stealth fighters will meet stealth fighters, which deletes the BVR advantage to a big extend and makes close combats more interesting again. That will be an area where Pak Fa / FGFA might have an edge, thanks to the aim of high flight performance and maneuverability, modern passive sensors and at least upgraded WVR missiles.

For the Pak-Fa to stand a chance, doesn't it require a massive leap of faith in regards to low observably? Legacy fighters maybe outmatched by the Russian aircraft, but it will find itself in the same situation an f-16 or even mig-21 would. That maybe an exaggeration, but it doesn't change the scenario of the f-22 being virtually invisible and picking and choosing when and where to fight.

Where real combat differs from mock dogfights is the nonexistence of any kind of rules. F-22s are likely to maintain a significant edge in low observability and will not engage the enemy until they have stacked the odds in their own favor. So while a mig-21 is nothing compared to the Pak-Fa, both will be detected and engaged without having seen the threat coming.

It can logically be argued that the Pak-Fa will reduce the gap in realm of stealth. But I'd personally be very uncomfortable proclaiming that a nation short on money and working on its first stealth aircraft will be able to match the LO characteristics the Americans have been working on since "Have Blue". So if the Pak-Fa reduces this wide gulf but still falls short, even by a little bit, then it will find itself in the same disadvantaged position of legacy aircraft. That really is half the battle, and the f-22 will have won it virtually everytime.
 
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For the Pak-Fa to stand a chance, doesn't it require a massive leap of faith in regards to low observably?

Depends on what you base your opinion on:

but I'd personally be very uncomfortable proclaiming that a nation short on money and working on its first stealth aircraft will be able to match the LO characteristics the Americans have been working on since "Have Blue"

If that is the base, you basically judge the fighter by your believe about Russia and not on what we have seen or heared about the fighter so far.

We know that the T50 has the same stealth shapings and internal weapon carriage capability as any stealth fighter, the only part that is not shaped so far and that the Russians don't even hide, is the engine covering, because we all know that the current engines won't be the once used in the serial production version.
We also know that the current prototypes don't use any RAM coatings or materials so far, because all they do is general flight and systems testing at this stage. We know that several sawtooth patterns are available around the airframe, again similar to all stealth fighters around the world.
So with all that in mind, there is hardly any doubt possible to say that the "T50" prototype is clearly a stealth design with similar stealth LO characteristics as other stealth fighters. And that alone is impressive, for the reasons you even mentioned, but what many people forget is, that the stealth design is only one part of beeing a 5th generation fighter, but there is much more about it!

Here is an edited Eurofighter magazin checklist to point it out:

l887qf3b.jpg



As you can see, even from what we know so far, the final Pak Fa will offer anything a 5th generation fighter needs according to western standards and when you look closer, you will even see that it sets new bars in this generation!
Be it speed, agility, high TWRs and wingloadings at least comparable to F22s, but what is more interesting is the ammount and the capability of active and passive sensors. High power long range AESA radar with side arrays, to provide the longest detection range and widest FOV of any 5th gen fighters. L-Band AESA arrays, IRST, 360° IR sensors, to further improve the detection capabilities in active and passive areas.

So even if we assume the F22 might have a slightly lower RCS, it might not have an a clear advantage, since the latter has the better detection capabilities. The correct comparision to the current generation would be, F18SH vs Su 35. The earlier with slight RCS advantages, but the latter has a clear advantage in active and passive detection, so who will detect whom first?
Add various datalinks, satcom capabilities, the ammount of infos the sensor fusion might offer and you have a highly capable NG plattform in all regards!

It is true that the fall of the Soviet Union was a blow for the Russians and that they took long time to recover, but they didn't wasted the time and further developed their own capabilities wrt radar, passive sensors and flight performance (just look at the combination of movable LERX, all moving vertical tail and TVNs during flight maneuvers and tell me 1 other fighter that has similar capabilities combined), but also watched closely what the others developed in the meantime, to develop their own ways for similar capabilities.
That's why underestimating Russia is a big mistake!
 
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An older report from 2010, but still interesting. Turn on the subtitels!

 
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I think no Indian are claiming PAK-FA better than F22 or F35, But one thing we are sure that it will be one of the best 5th Gen machine... :)

Well I guess only difference of opinion here is on F-22. Most of here agree it will be better than F-35 if it delivers what it promised.
 
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The Russian Air Force will start receiving the prospective airborne complex of frontline aviation (PAK FA), known also as the Russian fifth-generation fighter, in 2015-2016, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said.

“We have flying prototypes, which can so far be called the first-generation PAK FA. There was a long-range flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur to Zhukovsky outside Moscow recently. This is already reality,” Rogozin said.
The fighter will acquire “special superiority qualities when a new engine is launched,” he said.

“The main work is concentrated now on the engine and weapons. We expect supplies to start in 2015-2016,” Rogozin said.

It was reported earlier that the construction of the fifth-generation fighter is part of a program for rearming the Russian armed forces.

Specialists are of the view that the Russian fifth-generation fighter developed by the Sukhoi company is fully meeting the planned performance parameters during the ongoing flight tests.

Compared to fighters of previous generations, the PAK FA boasts a number of unique features, combining the functions as an attack plane and a fighter.

The aircraft has an unusually low level of radar, optical, and infrared visibility, which should significantly improve its combat efficiency in attacking both aerial and ground-based targets at any time of day and in any weather, according to its designers.

Russian Air Force to receive 5 generation fighter in 2015-2016 – Rogozin | idrw.org
 
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