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Stubborn or Persistent? Will India ever make nice with Pakistan?

Yawned because you are being disingenuous after participating in that thread. You know what the article said and how clear it was about the General being the one in charge, including using his own words -


"Speaking to a small group recently at the Royal United Services Institute, a defense think tank in London, Gen. Sharif said Pakistan’s lack of good governance had “created a vacuum” and required him to play a wide-ranging role as “a soldier-statesman”

In a recent meeting in Rawalpindi, Gen. Sharif told a visiting U.S. delegation how important it was to him “not to be seen as the main power” in Pakistan

The army chief backed Prime Minister Sharif. But the price, some senior government officials say, was high: the prime minister agreed to relinquish some powers, letting the military take charge of defense and foreign policy.



I'm not opposed to talks per se. I just don't see it going anywhere because of this dichotomy in the Pakistani establishment.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - NS signed up to Ufa, only to be overruled at home. What does that say?

Please go through the thread, you will find my comment, give it a read. Moving on, is military calling the shots? no, is military in power? no. There was a vacuum when it came to terrorism and etc, etc issue. When it comes to Kashmir issue there has to be a consensus. Again a poor excuse to avoid talks.
because of this dichotomy in the Pakistani establishment.
hypothetical....not realistic, we as a nation are sick of Kashmir issue, we have formal understanding on UN resolution, army is on the same page.
 
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Please go through the thread, you will find my comment, give it a read. Moving on, is military calling the shots? no, is military in power? no. There was a vacuum when it came to terrorism and etc, etc issue. When it comes to Kashmir issue there has to be a consensus. Again a poor excuse to avoid talks.

That is your problem, we however see that your PM is not able to make an agreement stick like the one he signed at Ufa.

hypothetical....not realistic, we as a nation are sick of Kashmir issue, we have formal understanding on UN resolution, army is on the same page.

If you have a formal understanding on sticking with the UN resolution, what do you propose to talk with India about? Why I said that this is a waste of time.
 
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That is your problem, we however see that your PM is not able to make an agreement stick like the one he signed at Ufa.



If you have a formal understanding on sticking with the UN resolution, what do you propose to talk with India about? Why I said that this is a waste of time.

Kashmir is a key deliverable for Pakistani establishment not so for India. Sad really but something I don't loose sleep over.

Deterrence has taken the wind out of any urgency on India's behalf - don't see any progress taking place until later half of 2016 as currently NDA isn't in consolidation stage.

By progress I mean any serious attempt to engage Pakistan with a ceiling being LoC --> IB
 
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By progress I mean any serious attempt to engage Pakistan with a ceiling being LoC --> IB

Too many of them harbour dreams of getting more & what's more, they think India will give it to them. It's why I have always said that the Pakistanis bring nothing to the table except for their demands.
 
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The game of sponsoring terrorism was started by Bharat in the former East Pakistan.

The game of sponsoring terrorism was started by Pakistan in 1947. In spite of a standstill agreement with the government of Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan
  1. accepted the accession of the subsidiariy rulers of Chitral, Hunza and Nagar;
  2. accepted the accession of Gilgit, where the Gilgit Scouts and their CO, Major Alexander Brown, had mutinied. The transfer of loyalty of the mutineers was accepted, and their ambush and killing of the Sikh and Dogra components of the Guides was tacitly accepted;
  3. accepted the Azad Kashmir government of Mirpur, which had openly revolted against the Maharaja;
  4. supported the attacks on the Maharaja's forces in Rajouri, and in Poonch, which both saw slaughter of one community, greater, in proportion, than took place at Baramula;
  5. commissioned Col. Akbar Khan to mobilise demobilised soldiers of the Indian Army, arm them with surplus arms and ammunition, and to launch, from friendly territory, a raid into the Vale of Kashmir, leading to terrible murders, rapes, looting and arson at Baramula initially;
Later, they initiated Operation Gibraltar, whereby 22 commandos of special forces tried to instigate revolt against India, by attacking Indian installations and outposts. They failed, but the instinctive Pakistani usage of false colours and quasi-insurrectionary attack are to be noted.

Finally, from 1972 onwards, when one of the conditions of the Simla Pact was bilateralism, and when the Pakistani leadership swore themselves into tight knots about their willingness to stop any further attacks on Kashmir, or onto any other part of the india-Pakistan border, Pakistan waited just twenty years to re-start the attacks.

If you Bharatis think that you are entitled to play a single sided game of sponsoring terrorism, then it may be against any logic. You are the biggest country in this region, your positiveness may produce positive results and your negativity will definitely produce negative results.

Look at the foreign policy of Bharat. No a single neighbor of Bharat is really happy with its foreign policy.

Do tell.

As distinct from the neighbours of Pakistan, who all of them like Pakistanis.

Osama was a blue eyed boy of the Western countries as long as he was working for them. When he turned against them because of their policies towards his country Saudi Arabia, then he was characterized by them as some villain. These double standards must be avoided for the global peace.

What do we care? Were we licking western gluteals, were we joining CENTO and SEATO and getting all our arms and ammunitions from the western countries? Did we represent ourselves to the Americans as the great bulwarks against communism in India?

It was fine to lick their spiitle at that time, it's now, caught red-handed with your hands in the cookie jar, that you get preternaturally still and intone in ghostly voices that the western countries are a Bad Thing.
 
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hi Bang not surprised to find you here. infact would have been disappointed if you had missed this thread.

The problem is india keeps stalling.

you say Army calls the shots. fine hypothetically for the sake of argument let's buy it.

we had Musharraf a man bending over backwards and yet India found excuses to stall. be it Agra or any subsequent meetings.

now i am sure even if (again buying into your allegations that army calls the shots) if our Army chief agrees to discuss Kashmir issue i am sure india will come up with another delaying tactic.

Indian strategy to stall has worked for 6 decades they don't need to change it anytime soon. So it is sadly a misconception on the Pakistani side that india would wish to discuss Kashmir with anyone on our side. india is more than happy the way things currently are.

futile situation i say. and nothing will change anytime soon.

The game of sponsoring terrorism was started by Pakistan in 1947. In spite of a standstill agreement with the government of Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan
  1. accepted the accession of the subsidiariy rulers of Chitral, Hunza and Nagar;
  2. accepted the accession of Gilgit, where the Gilgit Scouts and their CO, Major Alexander Brown, had mutinied. The transfer of loyalty of the mutineers was accepted, and their ambush and killing of the Sikh and Dogra components of the Guides was tacitly accepted;
  3. accepted the Azad Kashmir government of Mirpur, which had openly revolted against the Maharaja;
  4. supported the attacks on the Maharaja's forces in Rajouri, and in Poonch, which both saw slaughter of one community, greater, in proportion, than took place at Baramula;
  5. commissioned Col. Akbar Khan to mobilise demobilised soldiers of the Indian Army, arm them with surplus arms and ammunition, and to launch, from friendly territory, a raid into the Vale of Kashmir, leading to terrible murders, rapes, looting and arson at Baramula initially;
Later, they initiated Operation Gibraltar, whereby 22 commandos of special forces tried to instigate revolt against India, by attacking Indian installations and outposts. They failed, but the instinctive Pakistani usage of false colours and quasi-insurrectionary attack are to be noted.

Finally, from 1972 onwards, when one of the conditions of the Simla Pact was bilateralism, and when the Pakistani leadership swore themselves into tight knots about their willingness to stop any further attacks on Kashmir, or onto any other part of the india-Pakistan border, Pakistan waited just twenty years to re-start the attacks.





Do tell.

As distinct from the neighbours of Pakistan, who all of them like Pakistanis.



What do we care? Were we licking western gluteals, were we joining CENTO and SEATO and getting all our arms and ammunitions from the western countries? Did we represent ourselves to the Americans as the great bulwarks against communism in India?

It was fine to lick their spiitle at that time, it's now, caught red-handed with your hands in the cookie jar, that you get preternaturally still and intone in ghostly voices that the western countries are a Bad Thing.

now now joe let's not forget Junagadh which india annexed.

If india had not annexed Junagadh i am sure Pakistan would not have sent in militias to help the local populace. So the root cause is junagadh. the precedent was set by india



Junagadh dispute & Kashmir
 
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hi Bang not surprised to find you here. infact would have been disappointed if you had missed this thread.

I do my best to not disappoint....:D

The problem is india keeps stalling.

you say Army calls the shots. fine hypothetically for the sake of argument let's buy it.

we had Musharraf a man bending over backwards and yet India found excuses to stall. be it Agra or any subsequent meetings.

We have had this discussion & we disagreed on who caused it to stall. Musharraf's foreign minister accepts that it was Musharraf's run in with the lawyers that put the brakes on that.

now i am sure even if (again buying into your allegations that army calls the shots) if our Army chief agrees to discuss Kashmir issue i am sure india will come up with another delaying tactic.

I'm sure your army chief would be happy discussing the Kashmir issue, we would prefer to tackle terrorism first. On the Kashmir issue, we would have to see what your army wants discussing, any pipe dreams are a strict no-no.

Indian strategy to stall has worked for 6 decades they don't need to change it anytime soon. So it is sadly a misconception on the Pakistani side that india would wish to discuss Kashmir with anyone on our side. india is more than happy the way things currently are.

Why would we change? What is in it for us? Surely you don't expect India to do what youwould like?

futile situation i say. and nothing will change anytime soon.

My point when I said talks are a waste of time. You have nothing to offer, no one is about to oblige you on your wants.
 
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hi Bang not surprised to find you here. infact would have been disappointed if you had missed this thread.

The problem is india keeps stalling.

you say Army calls the shots. fine hypothetically for the sake of argument let's buy it.

we had Musharraf a man bending over backwards and yet India found excuses to stall. be it Agra or any subsequent meetings.

now i am sure even if (again buying into your allegations that army calls the shots) if our Army chief agrees to discuss Kashmir issue i am sure india will come up with another delaying tactic.

Indian strategy to stall has worked for 6 decades they don't need to change it anytime soon. So it is sadly a misconception on the Pakistani side that india would wish to discuss Kashmir with anyone on our side. india is more than happy the way things currently are.

futile situation i say. and nothing will change anytime soon.

In response, @ice_man @WAJsal , I would like to take you back to the construction of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. Nothing like that state existed before; nothing like that is likely to exist again.

It started with the jagir of Jammu, which was an independent state before being conquered by the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh. The existing Raja fled, and found a jagir for himself in British India, in Akhrot. He was replaced by Kishore Singh, a distant relative, whose sons fought for Jammu against the Sikhs, then, on being defeated, joined their victors. When Kishore Singh died, his son, Gulab Singh, became Raja.

Under Gulab Singh, the Jamwal Dogras captured Bhadarwah, then Rajauri, then Kishtwar, then Ladakh. Kishtwar and Ladakh fell to a good general working for the Jammu darbar, Zorawar Singh. Zorawar Singh then circled around the Vale of Kashmir, which was then ruled by a governor directly reporting to the Lahore darbar, and defeated the Raja of Skardu, annexing Gilgit. However, during a series of invasions and counter-invasions throughout the period, until late in the century, the Indus was the northern boundary of the Dogra state.

Mirpur, which was nothing to do with Kashmir, with not a single Koshur speaker, and filled with Potoharis and Sudhans, was annexed sometime around that time, in the 1830s - I am writing in a great hurry, as there are 40 papers to be corrected. Poonch, a subsidiary state (the ruling families of Poonch and Jammu were related), was under the thumb of the Jammu regime. In Jammu itself, the west of the province was Muslim majority, the east Hindu, Sikh and Jain.

How Kashmir - the Vale - came into Dogra hands is known to every script kiddy who wants to re-write history; the Dogras acquired it for 75 lakhs of Nanakshahi rupees through the Treaty of Amritsar, exactly one week after the Treaty of Lahore stripped it from the Lahore darbar.

Finally, in a series of Anglo-Kashmiri campaigns and in Kashmiri support of the Chitral regime against Afghan attacks, the Pamir Emirates, Chitral, Hunza and Nagar, and other smaller inter-related state-lets such as Puniyal and Yasin were mopped up. The three first-named became subsidiaries of the Jammu durbar.

With this history, when Gilgit, and the three Emirates broke away, and when Mirpur rose in armed revolt against the Maharaja's forces, it was a case of the Dogra principality splitting along the exact borders of the annexed states.

Jammu and Kashmir was a military kingdom, held by military might. Once the British took over Gilgit as the Gilgit Agency in 1877, and once they panicked at the Russian occupation of eastern Turkestan (Xinjiang to the uninitiated), and converted the Gilgit Agency and additional portions into the Gilgit Lease, and expelled every Dogra soldier and administrator from there until June or July in 1947, it was very clear that the Dogras could not re-establish their military domination of these conquered territories within the month or so remaining. And so it proved.

My case is that the split happened along the appropriate lines. Gilgit and Mirpur were reluctant annexures to the Dogra kingdom, the Vale was pro-Congress under Sheikh Abdullah, and Leh and Jammu were clearly pro-Dogra. There is nothing to be gained by a plebiscite, and there is nothing to compel India to hold a plebiscite which was flouted by Pakistan at the outset, contrary to Pakistani urban legend declaring that India refused to hold the plebiscite.



now now joe let's not forget Junagadh which india annexed.

If india had not annexed Junagadh i am sure Pakistan would not have sent in militias to help the local populace. So the root cause is junagadh.

Junagadh dispute & Kashmir[/QUOTE]

OK, let's not.

Contrary to your note, Indian troops DID NOT go into Junagadh. They did move into the subsidiary principalities, Mangrol and Babariawadi. At the time that Bhutto handed over authority to Buch, there was not a single Indian soldier in Junagadh.

Check for yourself.

I really get annoyed when these myths are propagated. One of the worst is about plebiscite not being held because India didn't want to hold it, the other is about Junagadh being the mirror opposite of Kashmir.

Fiddlesticks!!
 
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In response, @ice_man @WAJsal , I would like to take you back to the construction of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. Nothing like that state existed before; nothing like that is likely to exist again.

It started with the jagir of Jammu, which was an independent state before being conquered by the Sikhs under Ranjit Singh. The existing Raja fled, and found a jagir for himself in British India, in Akhrot. He was replaced by Kishore Singh, a distant relative, whose sons fought for Jammu against the Sikhs, then, on being defeated, joined their victors. When Kishore Singh died, his son, Gulab Singh, became Raja.

Under Gulab Singh, the Jamwal Dogras captured Bhadarwah, then Rajauri, then Kishtwar, then Ladakh. Kishtwar and Ladakh fell to a good general working for the Jammu darbar, Zorawar Singh. Zorawar Singh then circled around the Vale of Kashmir, which was then ruled by a governor directly reporting to the Lahore darbar, and defeated the Raja of Skardu, annexing Gilgit. However, during a series of invasions and counter-invasions throughout the period, until late in the century, the Indus was the northern boundary of the Dogra state.

Mirpur, which was nothing to do with Kashmir, with not a single Koshur speaker, and filled with Potoharis and Sudhans, was annexed sometime around that time, in the 1830s - I am writing in a great hurry, as there are 40 papers to be corrected. Poonch, a subsidiary state (the ruling families of Poonch and Jammu were related), was under the thumb of the Jammu regime. In Jammu itself, the west of the province was Muslim majority, the east Hindu, Sikh and Jain.

How Kashmir - the Vale - came into Dogra hands is known to every script kiddy who wants to re-write history; the Dogras acquired it for 75 lakhs of Nanakshahi rupees through the Treaty of Amritsar, exactly one week after the Treaty of Lahore stripped it from the Lahore darbar.

Finally, in a series of Anglo-Kashmiri campaigns and in Kashmiri support of the Chitral regime against Afghan attacks, the Pamir Emirates, Chitral, Hunza and Nagar, and other smaller inter-related state-lets such as Puniyal and Yasin were mopped up. The three first-named became subsidiaries of the Jammu durbar.

With this history, when Gilgit, and the three Emirates broke away, and when Mirpur rose in armed revolt against the Maharaja's forces, it was a case of the Dogra principality splitting along the exact borders of the annexed states.

Jammu and Kashmir was a military kingdom, held by military might. Once the British took over Gilgit as the Gilgit Agency in 1877, and once they panicked at the Russian occupation of eastern Turkestan (Xinjiang to the uninitiated), and converted the Gilgit Agency and additional portions into the Gilgit Lease, and expelled every Dogra soldier and administrator from there until June or July in 1947, it was very clear that the Dogras could not re-establish their military domination of these conquered territories within the month or so remaining. And so it proved.

My case is that the split happened along the appropriate lines. Gilgit and Mirpur were reluctant annexures to the Dogra kingdom, the Vale was pro-Congress under Sheikh Abdullah, and Leh and Jammu were clearly pro-Dogra. There is nothing to be gained by a plebiscite, and there is nothing to compel India to hold a plebiscite which was flouted by Pakistan at the outset, contrary to Pakistani urban legend declaring that India refused to hold the plebiscite.





Junagadh dispute & Kashmir


Thank you Joe for bringing me up to speed with the history of the area.

However,

your knowledge on Junagadh seems to be adulterated.

Junagadh - 1947

just so you don't need to read the whole text:

India responded by aiding and abetting the establishment of a so-called "Provisional Government" of Junagarh on Indian territory, which attacked Junagarh with Indian connivance and support. Subsequently Indian forces also invaded Junagarh, despite protests from Pakistan, in order to "restore law and order". In mid-September 1947 Junagadh, as a part of Pakistan, sent troops into Babariawad (a group of 51 villages) and Mangrol (a teeny princely State) -- both entities located in the heart of Junagadh and both of which had already acceded to India. These two pockets inside Junagadh State, but outside its suzerainty, were reclaimed by India on November 1, 1947, with a civil administrator accompanied by a small force.


if you also require a blast from the past regarding the plebiscite. Well Pakistan pretty much kept their word and withdrew their troops from the current LoC india as usual stalled.

Resolution adopted by the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan on 13 August 1948.
(Document No.1100, Para. 75, dated the 9th November, 1948).

(1) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw itstroops from that State. CHECK - Pakistan agreed

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from theState of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident thereinwho have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. CHECK - Pakistan tried

(3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission. - CHECK - Pakistan awaited the following

When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.- CHECK - "are being withdrawn", when Pakistani troops ARE BEING withdrawn, then India must agree to reduce its troops.



courtesy

@roadrunner




The Kashmir Resolutions - Explanations
 
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Not at all, @ice_man . Your quote says it all


In mid-September 1947 Junagadh, as a part of Pakistan, sent troops into Babariawad (a group of 51 villages) and Mangrol (a teeny princely State) -- both entities located in the heart of Junagadh and both of which had already acceded to India. These two pockets inside Junagadh State, but outside its suzerainty, were reclaimed by India on November 1, 1947, with a civil administrator accompanied by a small force.

That is precisely what I said.

There was not a single Indian soldier on Junagadh territory. Mangrol and Babriawadi were the places which acceded to India, they were the ones attacked by Junagadh, and they were the ones reclaimed by India. Not Junagadh.

When this happened, and the Junagadh authorities realised that they had over-reached, they threw in the towel.

But please be clear that there was no military action against Junagadh.

Thank you Joe for bringing me up to speed with the history of the area.

However,

your knowledge on Junagadh seems to be adulterated.

Junagadh - 1947

just so you don't need to read the whole text:

India responded by aiding and abetting the establishment of a so-called "Provisional Government" of Junagarh on Indian territory, which attacked Junagarh with Indian connivance and support. Subsequently Indian forces also invaded Junagarh, despite protests from Pakistan, in order to "restore law and order". In mid-September 1947 Junagadh, as a part of Pakistan, sent troops into Babariawad (a group of 51 villages) and Mangrol (a teeny princely State) -- both entities located in the heart of Junagadh and both of which had already acceded to India. These two pockets inside Junagadh State, but outside its suzerainty, were reclaimed by India on November 1, 1947, with a civil administrator accompanied by a small force.


if you also require a blast from the past regarding the plebiscite. Well Pakistan pretty much kept their word and withdrew their troops from the current LoC india as usual stalled.

Resolution adopted by the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan on 13 August 1948.
(Document No.1100, Para. 75, dated the 9th November, 1948).

(1) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw itstroops from that State. CHECK - Pakistan agreed

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from theState of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident thereinwho have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. CHECK - Pakistan tried

(3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission. - CHECK - Pakistan awaited the following

When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.- CHECK - "are being withdrawn", when Pakistani troops ARE BEING withdrawn, then India must agree to reduce its troops.



courtesy

@roadrunner




The Kashmir Resolutions - Explanations

Thank you Joe for bringing me up to speed with the history of the area.

However,

your knowledge on Junagadh seems to be adulterated.

Junagadh - 1947

just so you don't need to read the whole text:

India responded by aiding and abetting the establishment of a so-called "Provisional Government" of Junagarh on Indian territory, which attacked Junagarh with Indian connivance and support. Subsequently Indian forces also invaded Junagarh, despite protests from Pakistan, in order to "restore law and order". In mid-September 1947 Junagadh, as a part of Pakistan, sent troops into Babariawad (a group of 51 villages) and Mangrol (a teeny princely State) -- both entities located in the heart of Junagadh and both of which had already acceded to India. These two pockets inside Junagadh State, but outside its suzerainty, were reclaimed by India on November 1, 1947, with a civil administrator accompanied by a small force.


if you also require a blast from the past regarding the plebiscite. Well Pakistan pretty much kept their word and withdrew their troops from the current LoC india as usual stalled.

Resolution adopted by the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan on 13 August 1948.
(Document No.1100, Para. 75, dated the 9th November, 1948).

(1) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw itstroops from that State. CHECK - Pakistan agreed

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from theState of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident thereinwho have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. CHECK - Pakistan tried

(3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission. - CHECK - Pakistan awaited the following

When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.- CHECK - "are being withdrawn", when Pakistani troops ARE BEING withdrawn, then India must agree to reduce its troops.



courtesy

@roadrunner




The Kashmir Resolutions - Explanations

The point is, @ice_man Pakistan promised to do all that, and did none of it.

Read the proceedings of the Plebiscite Commission.

Have you known me deliberately mislead anyone on the historical facts? Would you take it as a reasonable supposition that I have gone through every shred of evidence, myself, and satisfied myself about the facts? Do you recognise that your citation talks about the future, and that future never happened?
 
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Not at all, @ice_man . Your quote says it all


In mid-September 1947 Junagadh, as a part of Pakistan, sent troops into Babariawad (a group of 51 villages) and Mangrol (a teeny princely State) -- both entities located in the heart of Junagadh and both of which had already acceded to India. These two pockets inside Junagadh State, but outside its suzerainty, were reclaimed by India on November 1, 1947, with a civil administrator accompanied by a small force.

That is precisely what I said.

There was not a single Indian soldier on Junagadh territory. Mangrol and Babriawadi were the places which acceded to India, they were the ones attacked by Junagadh, and they were the ones reclaimed by India. Not Junagadh.

When this happened, and the Junagadh authorities realised that they had over-reached, they threw in the towel.

But please be clear that there was no military action against Junagadh.

Can you care to speculate about Nehru's rationale for going UN and what would have happened had India committed itself to kicking out the Pakistani irregulars and troops using the military option.

a. Did India have the Military wherewithal to accomplish the liberation of Pakistan occupied Kashmir in 1947?
b. What was the global opinion and view of UK, USSR and USA?
c. Could India have held on the to the whole of Kashmir in presence of hostile population?
 
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I face a problem on this thread, inasmuch as my good friends from Pakistan have been brought up to believe a certain narrative, and have not had the time or perhaps the patience to examine the evidence and form a view independently of the accepted canonical version. What I have to narrate -
  1. about the flawed and fractured nature of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir,
  2. about the outbreak of fighting in Poonch and Mirpur even earlier than the qabaili raids,
  3. about the mutiny of the Gilgit Scouts and the treachery of Major Brown,
  4. about the impact of the Gilgit Scouts and the Chitral State forces acting jointly against the Maharaja's heavily outnumbered forces in Gilgit in general, and against the garrisons of Skardu and Kargil in particular,
  5. about the siege of Leh, and its garrisoning by forlorn hope volunteers till Rajinder Sparrow's Stuart tanks dug the Pakistanis out of their positions commanding the Zoji La,
  6. about the uprisings in Poonch, the capture of Mirpur and Nowshera and the brutal sack of Rajauri,
  7. about the qabaili raids and their impact on Baramula, about Shervani and his self-sacrifice to mislead the raiders,
  8. about Hari Singh's reactions to these events and his appeal to India, initially without acceding,
  9. about Mountbatten's stipulation that accession and a plebiscite must both be conditions for military assistance,
  10. about the efforts of V. P. Menon and a very young Major Manekshaw in Srinagar on the 25th October,
  11. about the meeting in Delhi which sat to decide what to do, and the precipitation of action by Patel,
  12. about the airlift and the start of the military operation which recovered parts of the Vale from raider occupation, and about military operations to relieve pressure both in the north, relieving Leh, and in the south, relieving Nowshera, Poonch and Rajauri
are all thoroughly researched and will shortly be submitted as a citation-ready paper for peer reviewed publication.

I feel sad that we both sides argue and brangle so much about Kashmir without knowing the facts. Knowing the facts of the matter, I believe, will help us take the discussion further, faster.
 
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I face a problem on this thread, inasmuch as my good friends from Pakistan have been brought up to believe a certain narrative, and have not had the time or perhaps the patience to examine the evidence and form a view independently of the accepted canonical version. What I have to narrate -
  1. about the flawed and fractured nature of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir,
  2. about the outbreak of fighting in Poonch and Mirpur even earlier than the qabaili raids,
  3. about the mutiny of the Gilgit Scouts and the treachery of Major Brown,
  4. about the impact of the Gilgit Scouts and the Chitral State forces acting jointly against the Maharaja's heavily outnumbered forces in Gilgit in general, and against the garrisons of Skardu and Kargil in particular,
  5. about the siege of Leh, and its garrisoning by forlorn hope volunteers till Rajinder Sparrow's Stuart tanks dug the Pakistanis out of their positions commanding the Zoji La,
  6. about the uprisings in Poonch, the capture of Mirpur and Nowshera and the brutal sack of Rajauri,
  7. about the qabaili raids and their impact on Baramula, about Shervani and his self-sacrifice to mislead the raiders,
  8. about Hari Singh's reactions to these events and his appeal to India, initially without acceding,
  9. about Mountbatten's stipulation that accession and a plebiscite must both be conditions for military assistance,
  10. about the efforts of V. P. Menon and a very young Major Manekshaw in Srinagar on the 25th October,
  11. about the meeting in Delhi which sat to decide what to do, and the precipitation of action by Patel,
  12. about the airlift and the start of the military operation which recovered parts of the Vale from raider occupation, and about military operations to relieve pressure both in the north, relieving Leh, and in the south, relieving Nowshera, Poonch and Rajauri
are all thoroughly researched and will shortly be submitted as a citation-ready paper for peer reviewed publication.

I feel sad that we both sides argue and brangle so much about Kashmir without knowing the facts. Knowing the facts of the matter, I believe, will help us take the discussion further, faster.

We live in a world where simple things are made complicated to address one's interests with out taking into consideration justice and rules.

One very simple question though would be what was the guiding rule to divide subcontinent ?

Was it done on the basis of Muslim and Hind majority areas or was there some other parameter ?

As far as world knows its two nation theory and all muslim majority areas were to be part of Pakistan and Kashmir always was and still is a muslim majority state witk 90 plus % muslims.
 
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Can you care to speculate about Nehru's rationale for going UN and what would have happened had India committed itself to kicking out the Pakistani irregulars and troops using the military option.

a. Did India have the Military wherewithal to accomplish the liberation of Pakistan occupied Kashmir in 1947?
b. What was the global opinion and view of UK, USSR and USA?
c. Could India have held on the to the whole of Kashmir in presence of hostile population?

Was that addressed to me?
  1. Nehru going to the UN was typical of Indian diplomacy and state policy, then and afterwards. Nothing new, nothing shocking about it at all. It was an obvious thing to do. India complained under Chapter VI. This meant that India did not go to the UN accusing Pakistan of this that and the other. It was a request to the UN to sort out a disagreement between neighbours. India could just as well have referred the matter under Chapter VII, and that would have put the fat in the fire. That would have - could have - led to military action against Pakistan. Some years later, this was the path taken about Korea.
  2. Could India have 'liberated' Pakistan occupied Kashmir in 1947? Yes, and no. Certainly, there was superior Indian force in the area, and it is quite possible that Mirpur and Gilgit would have fallen. But so what? Those were both territories bitterly hostile to India, quite unlike the people of the Vale, hostile to the Dogra regime originally, but ultimately to anything and to anyone that reminded them of the brutal conquests (of Gilgit, not of Mirpur) that brought them into the Dogra raj.
  3. To be honest, I haven't really formed an opinion on this important point. I will read up, and if I come to any interesting points, I shall get back.
  4. No. Not only COULD not have, but also SHOULD not have. When I read about what happened in Gilgit under the Dogras, and what happened in west Jammu in 1947, I am very clear that those parts should have gone to Pakistan.
 
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Was that addressed to me?
  1. Nehru going to the UN was typical of Indian diplomacy and state policy, then and afterwards. Nothing new, nothing shocking about it at all. It was an obvious thing to do. India complained under Chapter VI. This meant that India did not go to the UN accusing Pakistan of this that and the other. It was a request to the UN to sort out a disagreement between neighbours. India could just as well have referred the matter under Chapter VII, and that would have put the fat in the fire. That would have - could have - led to military action against Pakistan. Some years later, this was the path taken about Korea.
  2. Could India have 'liberated' Pakistan occupied Kashmir in 1947? Yes, and no. Certainly, there was superior Indian force in the area, and it is quite possible that Mirpur and Gilgit would have fallen. But so what? Those were both territories bitterly hostile to India, quite unlike the people of the Vale, hostile to the Dogra regime originally, but ultimately to anything and to anyone that reminded them of the brutal conquests (of Gilgit, not of Mirpur) that brought them into the Dogra raj.
  3. To be honest, I haven't really formed an opinion on this important point. I will read up, and if I come to any interesting points, I shall get back.
  4. No. Not only COULD not have, but also SHOULD not have. When I read about what happened in Gilgit under the Dogras, and what happened in west Jammu in 1947, I am very clear that those parts should have gone to Pakistan.

Thank you, I feel alot of people I know still harbor these what if scenarios - What if Patel was the PM, Why did Nehru act like he did on Kashmir, Role of Gandhi, etc.

I find it interesting to pick brains of more knowledgeable people and get their views on alternate scenarios so that I have an handy argument to deliver when posed with such hypothetical by my RSS/BJP friends.
 
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