Stubborn or Persistent? Will India ever make nice with Pakistan?

[vsdoc]

tendentious

What a nice word.

I would have just used plain vanilla whining or moaning.

This is so much classier.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Not entirely true. Yes, the article quotes NS's "failure".. two aspects are mentioned primarily. F-16s, and US' support for resolution on Kashmir.. The visit is dubbed failure with regards to those two aspects by the Indian media. It's Indian joy in Paksitan's alleged failure that is discussed especially in reference to Kashmir. Which turns right back into whether India is happy with the current relationship with Pakistan, cuz Pakistan certainly isn't.. And hence the question.. Will India make nice? Ever? The current situation is anything but!

So stubborn India then?

If Pakistan is indeed in the wrong here, why doesn't India make a fuss about Kashmir as much as Pakistan does? Why are they happy if Kashmir stays unresolved?

point is why should we accept what pakistan wants ?

what does it offers us in return ?

how will it help peace in the regon ?

in short : what pakistan is offering to resolve kashmir issue in its favour is of no value to us and what it wants in return of that favour for peace is not on offer

and the fact is pakistan cannot force india to accept its objectives as it is in no position to do so and all nagociations are done with onli one bottomline and even here pakistan wants to do it its own way which is impractical and almost hillarious but deu to its false bravado and highli inflated ego it has started living in a virtual world which dosent exist hence it is making all such noises and no one seems to be willing to help it .... if you know what i mean ... cheers mate

 

[Hussain Farooqui]

The problem with Bharat is that religious extremism is spiraling out of control. There is no country in the world where religious extremism is as strong as it is in Bharat. A religious extremist party is the strongest political party of Bharat. This mindset can hardly make any correct decisions.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Hmmm... It would seem that all you guys have firm belief that Pakistan is breeding terrorists. Funny how we are also the ones to suffer at their hands and then spend billions of rupees to actually get rid of them.. All that for an alleged proxy war against India which really isn't doing much good to Pakistan in the first place.

I like how you say, if war happens. You know it is really easy to say stuff like that.. If war happens, it's not about who wins or loses. It's about the countless deaths that would happen on both sides, most of them of people who have absolutely no idea as to the whys, the whats, and the hows.. Oh well... that was a one-sided analysis you provided though.

Stop fooling yourself and others. I you think Pakistan is not sponsor and breeder of terrorism then you are either NUTS or a terrorist sympathizer. Even a small kid living in Europe will say about lots and lots of terrorists killed in Pakistan than anywhere else. Who do you think OSAMA was? And why do you think and what do you think he was doing at the heart of PA military establishment?
Or PA is so weak that it can't spot a huge multi storage apartment? Get real.

And stop whining about you being victim of terror! You are victims of your own strategy of becoming a terror hub to aid super powers with dirty works. You will never learn any lessons of your mistakes. No one cares if you are drunk and driving. You life you play with and die or whatever but the problem is your drunk and drive could kill innocent soul who has nothing to do with it!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Not entirely true. Yes, the article quotes NS's "failure".. two aspects are mentioned primarily. F-16s, and US' support for resolution on Kashmir.. The visit is dubbed failure with regards to those two aspects by the Indian media. It's Indian joy in Paksitan's alleged failure that is discussed especially in reference to Kashmir. Which turns right back into whether India is happy with the current relationship with Pakistan, cuz Pakistan certainly isn't.. And hence the question.. Will India make nice? Ever? The current situation is anything but!

What most Indians fail to understand, including Pakistan-friendly Indians like myself, is why India should be making overtures to a country that is simply not interested, addressing these to people who are simply not empowered, and making arguments for peace which should not have to be made, and are made against the background of people simply not bothering about these reasons for peace and maintaining their own aggression even while they talk about peace.

So stubborn India then?

If Pakistan is indeed in the wrong here, why doesn't India make a fuss about Kashmir as much as Pakistan does? Why are they happy if Kashmir stays unresolved?

Because we couldn't care less. Pakistan is indeed in the wrong, and we have pointed it out on numerous occasions, and it has had no effect. Raising a fuss about it only helps Pakistan to play her game as ever before, creating a nuisance of a problem and then insisting that it is a problem because the other side says so too.

What a nice word.

I would have just used plain vanilla whining or moaning.

This is so much classier.

Taking the mickey, are we?

@Joe Shearer

On a related note what is your opinion on :
India-Pakistan
1) cultural & people to people exchanges
2) Cricket

I think that the first should be encouraged & allowed but in the second, I'm inclined to go with Ramachandra Guha's argument that India-Pak cricket only creates more bad blood and must not be pushed for now.

Ditto, ditto. You already know about insaniyat, and the deep wound you dealt me. But the cricket thing is too visceral; we should support every effort by Pakistan to get going again, and stop playing the fool with them, but just for now, avoid actual matches, whether on either country's soil or not, it doesn't matter.

 

[Azadkashmir]

how can India be nice to Pakistan ask the kashmiris ask the dalits, etc. don't forget the pain suffering Muslims had to go thru when partitioning took place, thousands killed on their way to new found pak. trains filled with dead, women raped kidnapped.

 

[Stag112]

That's stretching it a notch man.. Pakistan is so not looking to do any of that. That's way far-fetched.

It's not about equally right or wrong. It's all about concerned. India, is not concerned with resolving Kashmir, Pakistan is. The noise merely implies who's bothered by the issue, and Pakistan sure is. We present arguments to the world on Kashmir, India should do the same. There is absolutely no way that Kashmir is getting resolved if the commitment is only one-sided. It just shows India is committed to work for a resolution. That's all.

We don't really care how powerful India is, or concerned about her military might as long as their is iron-clad peace. It is because you guys succeeded in making a nuclear weapon that Pakistan started working one. As far as military is concerned, whether or not one wants to be a super power or whatever is irrelevant. You make peace with the entire world, even still you would need weapons. As long as India is getting powerful, Pakistan is doing whatever it can to match that. That still is irrelevant. As long as there is peace, we don't care about he military might. What's in it for India if Kashmir is resolved? Really? If Kashmir is resolved, the two neighbors can work together and give peace a greater shot.. That means absolutely nothing to you then?

I agree with that.. Kashmir doesn't have to go anywhere... Oppression and violence just needs to stop. Surely there is something the two countries could work out inni?


Hmmm... It would seem that all you guys have firm belief that Pakistan is breeding terrorists. Funny how we are also the ones to suffer at their hands and then spend billions of rupees to actually get rid of them.. All that for an alleged proxy war against India which really isn't doing much good to Pakistan in the first place.

I like how you say, if war happens. You know it is really easy to say stuff like that.. If war happens, it's not about who wins or loses. It's about the countless deaths that would happen on both sides, most of them of people who have absolutely no idea as to the whys, the whats, and the hows.. Oh well... that was a one-sided analysis you provided though.

Lady when you say pakistan is interested in solving kashmir thats a blatant lie. Pakistan is interested in getting kashmir on their own terms. Big difference.

For Indians its a small issue emotionally and at a geopolitical level we use pakistans obsessive and emotional bevavior on kashmir as a monkey trap.

Infact indians keep saying openly they are willing to compromise on kaahmir but pakistan is stuck 60 years ago. So your one sided piece is not rooted in any geo political or practical considerations but your widespread belief that you have some holier than thou position on kashmir, and consequently special privileges.

You dont. Live in reality.

 

[as1mz]

Lady when you say pakistan is interested in solving kashmir thats a blatant lie. Pakistan is interested in getting kashmir on their own terms. Big difference.

For Indians its a small issue emotionally and at a geopolitical level we use pakistans obsessive and emotional bevavior on kashmir as a monkey trap.

Infact indians keep saying openly they are willing to compromise on kaahmir but pakistan is stuck 60 years ago. So your one sided piece is not rooted in any geo political or practical considerations but your widespread belief that you have some holier than thou position on kashmir, and consequently special privileges.

You dont. Live in reality.

I see... I think de-militarizing Kashmir is not a part of said compromise. Pakistan isn't interesting in resolving Kashmir? All Pakistan asks is implementation of UN's resolution and voila! Don't see that happening! Lady ..

Stop fooling yourself and others. I you think Pakistan is not sponsor and breeder of terrorism then you are either NUTS or a terrorist sympathizer. Even a small kid living in Europe will say about lots and lots of terrorists killed in Pakistan than anywhere else. Who do you think OSAMA was? And why do you think and what do you think he was doing at the heart of PA military establishment?
Or PA is so weak that it can't spot a huge multi storage apartment? Get real.

And stop whining about you being victim of terror! You are victims of your own strategy of becoming a terror hub to aid super powers with dirty works. You will never learn any lessons of your mistakes. No one cares if you are drunk and driving. You life you play with and die or whatever but the problem is your drunk and drive could kill innocent soul who has nothing to do with it!!!

Wow, so getting real for you is believing everything the media shoves at you? I'm fine being ignorant in that case. Thank you very much. So I'm assuming that India is the innocent soul here? Understanding you a little more...

point is why should we accept what pakistan wants ?

what does it offers us in return ?

how will it help peace in the regon ?

in short : what pakistan is offering to resolve kashmir issue in its favour is of no value to us and what it wants in return of that favour for peace is not on offer

and the fact is pakistan cannot force india to accept its objectives as it is in no position to do so and all nagociations are done with onli one bottomline and even here pakistan wants to do it its own way which is impractical and almost hillarious but deu to its false bravado and highli inflated ego it has started living in a virtual world which dosent exist hence it is making all such noises and no one seems to be willing to help it .... if you know what i mean ... cheers mate

No one can force anyone to do anything against their will. And why should India be offered anything in return exactly? What right do you have over Kashmir? Enlighten me.

 

[Politico]

no need 2 even discuss issue. only way 2 handle stubborn indian occupation of kashmir is 2 take indians on with military might and 2 teach them a lifetime lessons. maybe even split india 2 multiple states once and 4 all !

 

[GURU DUTT]

I see... I think de-militarizing Kashmir is not a part of said compromise. Pakistan isn't interesting in resolving Kashmir? All Pakistan asks is implementation of UN's resolution and voila! Don't see that happening! Lady ..

Wow, so getting real for you is believing everything the media shoves at you? I'm fine being ignorant in that case. Thank you very much. So I'm assuming that India is the innocent soul here? Understanding you a little more...

No one can force anyone to do anything against their will. And why should India be offered anything in return exactly? What right do you have over Kashmir? Enlighten me.

what about the rights of hindus ?

sikhs killed in pakistan & Bangladesh in 1947 ?

what about the rights of kashmiri hindus , sikhs killed in so called G&B and Azad kashmir ?

what about the rights of kashmiri pandits who are infact the orignal kashmiries who were raped , looted and then hunted owt of there mother land ?

are rights onli for muslims while non muslims have no rights is that what you are saying ?

forget kashmir as under no circumstances we will give it up come what may and if pakistanies are so concenrened about kashmiri muslims india can arrange for there transfer and rehabilitation in so called Azad Kashmir but if its the kashmir land pakistan wants forget it

 

[WAJsal]

What most Indians fail to understand, including Pakistan-friendly Indians like myself, is why India should be making overtures to a country that is simply not interested, addressing these to people who are simply not empowered, and making arguments for peace which should not have to be made, and are made against the background of people simply not bothering about these reasons for peace and maintaining their own aggression even while they talk about peace.

That is uncalled for. How can anyone state this without any proof. Civilian government calls the shots, army does advice when it comes to sensitive issue. I am sorry but this comment makes no sense-if this is what you believe, it is still a very poor excuse to ditch talks.

Because we couldn't care less.

Was it not India that went to the UN. This is a known fact-India agreed to hold referendum in Kashmir, resolution was to be followed, it is a shame that it hasn't been followed to this date. Indian state realizing their odds have managed to kick the issue to this date. While the most logical solution-which is letting the people decide is ignored.

Lady when you say pakistan is interested in solving kashmir thats a blatant lie. Pakistan is interested in getting kashmir on their own terms. Big difference.

Please do not troll. UN resolution has been agreed on by India too-how is it our terms, it is India's terms too.

what about the rights of kashmiri hindus , sikhs killed in so called G&B and Azad kashmir ?

There were never any Hindus in GB, Sikhs that were present were occupying force, which were driven out by the locals. There isn't a good number of Hindus in AJK too. If there are any, which is a very slim statement to make, they are certainly enjoying the same rights. Do not troll and in future mention things you know, or do you have any proof of what you state? If you don't kindly edit your post.

infact the orignal kashmiries

While Muslims weren't...? at least make logical comments.

 

[Bang Galore]

That is uncalled for. How can anyone state this without any proof. Civilian government calls the shots, army does advice when it comes to sensitive issue. I am sorry but this comment makes no sense-if this is what you believe, it is still a very poor excuse to ditch talks.

Nobody buys that line, not even the Americans. It's why they are waiting for the real Sharif to visit. Your military got NS to change his NSA to a guy who just retired from the army and the reason given was that the army thought Sartaj Aziz had his plate full. Army thought? There you go.....

 

[Sky lord]

Was it not India that went to the UN. This is a known fact-India agreed to hold referendum in Kashmir, resolution was to be followed, it is a shame that it hasn't been followed to this date. Indian state realizing their odds have managed to kick the issue to this date. While the most logical solution-which is letting the people decide is ignored.

Read the resolution, the first part was that Pakistan should completely remove its army from it part of Kashmir, you guys never did that. You didn't do what you were asked to do but expect us fulfill ours. The world does not run that way sir.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That is uncalled for. How can anyone state this without any proof. Civilian government calls the shots, army does advice when it comes to sensitive issue. I am sorry but this comment makes no sense-if this is what you believe, it is still a very poor excuse to ditch talks.

How can anyone state this without proof? Is there still any proof needed in the 21st century that the civilian administration in Pakistan is a collection of figureheads, and that the military decides foreign policy, decides policy towards India and decides policy towards Kashmir? To say that the civilians call the shots and the Army advises when it comes to sensitive issues is disingenuous.

Why it makes no sense is still not clear. It has been announced that it makes no sense; nothing more. Asking us to believe that due to some mysterious alchemy, the military is now de-fanged, and Nawaz Sharif is now calling the shots will at best raise an eyebrow or two, at worst lead to a wan smile.

Was it not India that went to the UN.

It did. Are you aware under what provision, and what it signals as India's intentions?

Please, @WAJsal I say this as a fan of yours and as a friend and well-wisher, don't get into the details of the Kashmir conflict without knowing the details. No hard feelings, but most of the people who bring up the subject simply don't know the facts.

This is a known fact-India agreed to hold referendum in Kashmir

Wrong.

India offered a plebiscite as a condition for the Maharaja acceding to India, even though legally the accession would have been and is complete in itself.

resolution was to be followed, it is a shame that it hasn't been followed to this date.

This is why I asked you to read up and then get involved.

1. Pakistan objected to the resolutions from the first moment. There was a resolution of the 13th August; it might enlighten you to find out why it suffered an untimely fate.
2. The Plebiscite Commission was to be set up by whom? Are you aware?
3. When the Plebiscite Commission was set up, one of the two concerned parties refused to comply with the instructions of the Commission. Guess who that was?
4. The terms of the resolution are crystal clear. Have you read it? Have you any comment, after reading it, about which party stone-walled it?

The facts do NOT favour Pakistan, @WAJsal ; sorry to do this to such a nice guy, but that is the truth, and you will find out if you do even some cursory study.

Indian state realizing their odds have managed to kick the issue to this date.

Not according to the recorded Proceedings of the Plebiscite Commission, which I beg you to read, before you are carried away by enthusiasm and ignorance of the details into repeating your statements. There are these proceedings, they bear a full record of who refused, point blank, the orders of the commission.

While the most logical solution-which is letting the people decide is ignored.

Don't place it at India's door before reading what happened.

Please do not troll. UN resolution has been agreed on by India too-how is it our terms, it is India's terms too.

There were never any Hindus in GB, Sikhs that were present were occupying force, which were driven out by the locals(1). There isn't a good number of Hindus in AJK too. If there are any, which is a very slim statement to make, they are certainly enjoying the same rights. Do not troll and in future mention things you know, or do you have any proof of what you state? If you don't kindly edit your post.

While Muslims weren't...? (2) at least make logical comments.

(1) Which occupying force was this, @WAJsal
(2) Neither of these statements is true:

(a) All Kashmiris are Muslims;
(b) All Muslims (living in Kashmir the former princely state) are Kashmiris.​

I see... I think de-militarizing Kashmir is not a part of said compromise. Pakistan isn't interesting in resolving Kashmir? All Pakistan asks is implementation of UN's resolution and voila! Don't see that happening! Lady ..

Wow, so getting real for you is believing everything the media shoves at you? I'm fine being ignorant in that case. Thank you very much. So I'm assuming that India is the innocent soul here? Understanding you a little more...

No one can force anyone to do anything against their will. And why should India be offered anything in return exactly? What right do you have over Kashmir? Enlighten me.

Please read the Indian Independence Act. You will be enlightened.

I see... I think de-militarizing Kashmir is not a part of said compromise. Pakistan isn't interesting in resolving Kashmir? All Pakistan asks is implementation of UN's resolution and voila! Don't see that happening! Lady ..

Wow, so getting real for you is believing everything the media shoves at you? I'm fine being ignorant in that case. Thank you very much. So I'm assuming that India is the innocent soul here? Understanding you a little more...

No one can force anyone to do anything against their will. And why should India be offered anything in return exactly? What right do you have over Kashmir? Enlighten me.

Are these exclamations points you are making, or sentiment and emotional outbursts? Just asking.

 

[Sky lord]

How can anyone state this without proof? Is there still any proof needed in the 21st century that the civilian administration in Pakistan is a collection of figureheads, and that the military decides foreign policy, decides policy towards India and decides policy towards Kashmir? To say that the civilians call the shots and the Army advises when it comes to sensitive issues is disingenuous.

Why it makes no sense is still not clear. It has been announced that it makes no sense; nothing more. Asking us to believe that due to some mysterious alchemy, the military is now de-fanged, and Nawaz Sharif is now calling the shots will at best raise an eyebrow or two, at worst lead to a wan smile.

Beautifully put, I hope there is a response to this from the Pakistani posters.