Steve Bannon claims China, Turkey and Iran will form a "new axis"

[cocomo]

Steve Bannon claims China, Turkey and Iran will form a "new axis"
Mar 03 2018


Former White House chief strategist and ousted executive chairman at the alt-right Breitbart News Steve Bannon described a new axis forming to confront the "Christian West" – China, Iran and Turkey – in an interview to GQ magazine.

"What we're seeing today is China, Persia, and Turkey – three ancient civilisations – coming together to form a new axis. It's confronting the Christian West and also a big part of Islam that is tied to the West. You're starting to see this form every day like in the 1930s. You're starting to see it crystallise more and more," said the alt-right icon.

Invoking the pre-World War 2 era, Bannon says that the U.S. and its allies must confront and defeat this new triumvirate he calls the "new axis." Between Fukuyama's theory that claims liberal democracies and free market capitalism will spread over time and Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilisations" which envisions conflict and confrontation between civilisations, Bannon says the winner is clear, a showdown between cultures.

Bannon is not worried about Russia per se. He dismisses the Russian economy as the size of the state of New York (in fact its GDP is a bit higher than the state of Texas, the second highest in the U.S.) and says "eventually we have to end the Cold War, right?"

But he believes a warmer war is on the books, "We're going to have our hands full right now with China, Iran, and Turkey. Turkey's supposed to be an ally," he says.

https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/steve-bannon-claims-china-turkey-and-iran-will-form-new-axis

 

[MBT 3000]

and Pakistan?

 

[Saif al-Arab]

If anything the only axis in the region that is developing (at least economically) is between China and the Arab world. For instance, China has an official "Arab world policy" and paper that no other foreign country or region enjoys. This speaks volume. Of course excluding Pakistan as of now.

Looking at the numbers and level of cooperation, I find that proposal highly unlikely, unless it includes the much larger, populous, wealthy and resource rich (as well as strategically more richer) Arab world.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/arab-world-and-china-cooperation-and-news.298140/page-8#post-10182065

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-powerful-saudi-arabian-chinese-partnership.543433/#post-10235977

There is a reason why all Chinese infrastructural plans (outside of its borders) travel across the Arab world whether through land or sea routes. Not even mentioning China's presence in Africa and where the Arab world will play a role in this regard.

People don't understand the Chinese. The pragmatic Chinese would never limit themselves in such a fashion. It makes no sense.

China's main ally is itself. It's a heavyweight on its own. They don't need something like that. Even traditional allies like Russia and North Korea (due to the nature of its regime and its unpredictability and liability by large - enables US presence in and around China - perfect excuse), there are significant disagreements with currently and most likely in the future too. I expect (eventually) Russia to "reunite" with Europe as prior to 1917 rather than undergoing some eternal alliances with people they have very little in common with. That's just a feeling. Geography (90% of the population of Russia lives closer to the Middle East than China) and a ONCE shared ideology (communism) and a common stance against the US bully, are the main bolts that keep this alliance intact. An alliance that collapsed at the height of the USSR and almost caused a major war. If not for those reasons, China and Russia would be like any country of this scale in their mutual dealings.

Funnily enough the US and China are much more dependent on each other (economically) than Russia and China will likely ever be. Food for thought.

 

[SALMAN F]

If anything the only axis in the region that is developing (at least economically) is between China and the Arab world. For instance, China has an official "Arab world policy" and paper that no other foreign country or region enjoys. This speaks volume. Of course excluding Pakistan as of now.

Looking at the numbers and level of cooperation, I find that proposal highly unlikely, unless it includes the much larger, populous, wealthy and resource rich (as well as strategically more richer) Arab world.

There is a reason why all Chinese infrastructural plans (outside of its borders) travel across the Arab world whether through land or sea routes. Not even mentioning China's presence in Africa and where the Arab world will play a role in this regard.

China is not like Russia they care more about economy than ideology, politics or military expansion

If anything the only axis in the region that is developing (at least economically) is between China and the Arab world. For instance, China has an official "Arab world policy" and paper that no other foreign country or region enjoys. This speaks volume. Of course excluding Pakistan as of now.

Looking at the numbers and level of cooperation, I find that proposal highly unlikely, unless it includes the much larger, populous, wealthy and resource rich (as well as strategically more richer) Arab world.

There is a reason why all Chinese infrastructural plans (outside of its borders) travel across the Arab world whether through land or sea routes. Not even mentioning China's presence in Africa and where the Arab world will play a role in this regard.

China is not like Russia they care more about economy than ideology, politics or military expansion

 

[Torch_v2.0]

Zionist are Obsessed with the word 'Axis'

 

[ARMalik]

and Pakistan?

He thinks Pak is their little pathetic lap dog, and unfortunately he may be right.

 

[New World]

and Pakistan?

how do you forget that Pakistan is a colony of China. Didn't you see the news paper of worlds largest democrazy.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

China is not like Russia they care more about economy than ideology, politics or military expansion


China is not like Russia they care more about economy than ideology, politics or military expansion

Have in mind that the thread starter is a well-known Iranian Wilayat al-Faqih Mullah fanboy that used to praise the Persian Empire, forgetting that most of its culture, architecture, bureaucracy etc. copied much older Semitic civilizations native to the Arab world. Let alone Arabs creating larger and more influential empires in history. Just like the Arab world is home to the oldest and most well-known civilizations on the planet and oldest cities as well as oldest heritage sites but in his brain the "Persian is civilized" while the Arab is "uncivilized" (LOL). I kid you not. Not even talking about the current-day realities when it comes to living standards, influence worldwide etc.

So obviously such threads suit his agenda. This way the Arab world suddenly disappears from the picture despite being a key strategic region for China if not THE strategy area for Chinese influence in Asia.



Not longer there. Despite KSA-China trade ties being larger than China-Iran and China-Pakistan ties combined.

BTW take a look at what the Chinese are doing in the GCC of late and in particular UAE. Read about the role of Yuan and its growing foothold. Nothing similar elsewhere in the Muslim world.

If the Saudi Aramco IPO will be aligned with China, this will become even more clear. Something that I hope and expect to happen actually.

 

[Cybernetics]

If anything the only axis in the region that is developing (at least economically) is between China and the Arab world. For instance, China has an official "Arab world policy" and paper that no other foreign country or region enjoys. This speaks volume. Of course excluding Pakistan as of now.

Looking at the numbers and level of cooperation, I find that proposal highly unlikely, unless it includes the much larger, populous, wealthy and resource rich (as well as strategically more richer) Arab world.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/arab-world-and-china-cooperation-and-news.298140/page-8#post-10182065

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/a-powerful-saudi-arabian-chinese-partnership.543433/#post-10235977

There is a reason why all Chinese infrastructural plans (outside of its borders) travel across the Arab world whether through land or sea routes. Not even mentioning China's presence in Africa and where the Arab world will play a role in this regard.

People don't understand the Chinese. The pragmatic Chinese would never limit themselves in such a fashion. It makes no sense.

China's main ally is itself. It's a heavyweight on its own. They don't need something like that. Even traditional allies like Russia and North Korea (due to the nature of its regime and its unpredictability and liability by large - enables US presence in and around China - perfect excuse), there are significant disagreements with currently and most likely in the future too. I expect (eventually) Russia to "reunite" with Europe as prior to 1917 rather than undergoing some eternal alliances with people they have very little in common with. That's just a feeling.

If we are to talk in terms of war strategy, Bannon is referring to (at least I am making that connection) a strategy stated by some PLA hawks many years back in dealing with American agression. It is a 3-front war strategy and it doesn't mean direct war but a tool to offset war calculations and a leverage tool. The PLA hawks have identified 3 major potential adversaries for USA: Russia, China and the Islamic world. As they have previously said, if given the chance Putin would immediately restore the USSR in the geopolitical and security sense (not ideology). Russia would likely be the most directly confrontational to the west if given the conditions. China is trying to build up is capabilities in the most rounded and stable fashion possible. The strategists saw potential in the Islamic world but it is fragmented due to conflicts and historical reasons, so it is trying to find ways to bring it back together. First it is trying to identify potential leading nations of the Islamic world and build them up economically, politically, technologically, etc in any ways it can help. Some are already quite established, so it will just deepen ties with them. There are many potential nations thus it is working with all of the major ones. OBOR is just another forum for this integration. The leader will present itself.

I agree with your assessment that China's main ally is itself, at heart China still thinks of itself as the "Middle Kingdom" as the name 中国/Zhongguo implies and tries to build its future in that direction. It tries not to rely on anyone too heavily but realises the importance of international cooperation as its survival and influence is dependent on it. It likes to be in a dynamic where it is flexible to do things that makes sense from a domestic view and not get tangled up in overseas conflicts.

I also agree that Russia in the long term wishes for greater connectivity with Europe. Russia at its core is European, though some West Europeans reject such notions. I think it was disappointing for many Russians the attitude Western Europe had towards Russia post Soviet collapse, they were still seen as an enemy. It is possible for greater Europe and Russia integration after NATO is disbanded and the continental European states form an alliance network of its own, separate from American interests (maybe even separate from UK). The US will always try to prevent the cohesion of Eurasia as an entity, simply due to its geopolitics. If Russia sets its long term integration with Europe and not act as a bridge of two worlds then its foothold in the Far East would be severely eroded. Who knows which direction Russia would pursue. Much of the outcome would be dependent on Russia's internal dynamic.

The Arab world has ancient ties with China, this is separate from religion, politics, and modernity. Chinese don't see relations with the Arab world in those terms. I, like many other Chinese grew up reading "One Thousand and One Nights", numbers like 1,2,3 are refered to as "Arabic numbers/阿拉伯数字".

 

[Saif al-Arab]

If we are to talk in terms of war strategy, Bannon is referring to a strategy stated by some PLA hawks many years back in dealing with American agression. It is a 3-front war strategy and it doesn't mean direct war but a tool to offset war calculations and a leverage tool. The PLA hawks have identified 3 major potential adversaries for USA: Russia, China and the Islamic world. As they have previously said, if given the chance Putin would immediately restore the USSR in the geopolitical and security sense (not ideology). Russia would likely be the most directly confrontational to the west if given the conditions. China is trying to build up is capabilities in the most rounded and stable fashion possible. The strategists saw potential in the Islamic world but it is fragmented due to conflicts and historical reasons, so it is trying to find ways to bring it back together. First it is trying to identify potential leading nations of the Islamic world and build them up economically, politically, technologically, etc in any ways it can help. Some are already quite established, so it will just deepen ties with them. There are many potential nations thus it is working with all of the major ones. OBOR is just another forum for this integration. The leader will present itself.

I agree with your assessment that China's main ally is itself, at heart China still thinks of itself as the "Middle Kingdom" as the name 中国/Zhongguo implies and tries to build its future in that direction. It tries not to rely on anyone too heavily but realises the importance of international cooperation as its survival and influence is dependent on it. It likes to be in a dynamic where it is flexible to do things that makes sense from a domestic view and not get tangled up in overseas conflicts.

I also agree that Russia in the long term wishes for greater connectivity with Europe. Russia at its core is European, though some West Europeans reject such notions. I think it was disappointing for many Russians the attitude Western Europe had towards Russia post Soviet collapse, they were still seen as an enemy. It is possible for greater Europe and Russia integration after NATO is disbanded and the continental European states form an alliance network of its own, separate from American interests (maybe even separate from UK). The US will always try to prevent the cohesion of Eurasia as an entity, simply due to its geopolitics. If Russia sets its long term integration with Europe and not act as a bridge of two worlds then its foothold in the Far East would be severely eroded. Who knows which direction Russia would pursue. Much of the outcome would be dependent on Russia's internal dynamic.

I am glad that you said Islamic world and not Iran, because Iran other than having influence in impoverished and unstable small Eastern Afghanistan (due to linguistic, cultural and historic reasons - even though Tajiks consider themselves an independent people that also share a different sect - Sunni Islam) and among Shia (religious ones) communities in the Arab world (not even the majority) and Pakistan, Afghanistan and India, have very little influence other than the immediate region. Nor is Iran ever going to combat the West always due to the fact that most Iranians have a good opinion of the West and are closer to the European cultural sphere (as are the Arabs honestly) than the East Asian sphere. However Arabs (more recently at least not necessarily historically) have more reason to be more anti-West by nature. Israel being an extension of the West (US) helps that, not to say the meddling as well as regime support of regimes that are not always favored by locals.

I am afraid that neither Russia nor China will come to each others aid in case of a war unless it will be some major war (think WW3 here).

China is doing similar to what KSA is doing in East Asia. Trying to have cordial mutually beneficial ties with all partners whether China, Japan or South Korea. All while China and Japan have historical disagreements (to put it mildly) that put the KSA-Iranian dispute (since 1979 moreover only, unless ancient times are to be included) to shame. KSA's largest trade partner is China but at the same time we have close ties on many fronts with Japan and South Korea. This is something that most pragmatic Arab regimes copy just like China is trying to make business with everyone in the region and the main regional powers irrespective of those regional powers relations with each other.

The Arab world was the same since the Neolithic era (10.000 BC) began. It was disturbed occasional by short-lived Hitties attacks, emergence of the Persian empire, later Greek one (Alexander the Great), Romans and afterwards in 1258, Mongols and after that Turkic nomad invasions. Not all those outside entities impacted the Arab world to an equal degree or vice versa, some very little but mostly the impact/influnece went the other way around. A bit like conquerers of China. For instance non-Arab dynasties in the Arab world became easily Arabized within a remarkably short time period similar to how nomadic dynasties (think Manchu people (last Chinese imperial dynasty until 100 years ago) or Mongols etc.) You even had, at the height of religious wars in Europe, longstanding (to this day) Arab influences in Southern Europe from cuisine, language, art, music to architecture. All now considered indigenous. Someone familiar with say Spain, would know what I am referring to here as it is very evident even despite all this time (500 + years).

Then came the Europeans starting with Algeria (modern-day Algeria) in 1830 when the French arrived. 50-60 years later the Brits started to become interested in the remaining areas of the Arab world. In fact it began with Napoleon and his invasion of Egypt some 200 years ago. Rest is history.

Strangely enough most Russians identify with Europe and although consider Russia a "continent/culture" in itself they do not deny the historical facts, namely language (Slavic), culture (ChristianitY), appearance etc. Have in mind that modern-day Russia, pre-1917 was created and shaped by Europeans, mainly Germans. The Russian imperial family was of German origin, many reformers were of German origin etc. It started with Peter the Great's trip to Western Europe some 340 years ago. During that trip he realized that the isolated Russia, after being under the influence of the Golden Horde (nomadic influences once again - same theme) was WAY behind Europe do to never experiencing a renaissance. Not to say that Russia itself is a barely 1100 year old concept (Kievan Rus) and mostly what is modern-day Russia was a backwater like most of Europe, other than Southern Europe historically. Here I am talking about ancient history and not modern-day era. For instance Russian statehood began when a Rurikid prince (presumably of Scandinavian origin moreover) converted to Christianity under the influence of the Byzantine empire which is why Russia came under the Greek sphere of influence like most of Eastern Europe unlike the Latin sphere of influence (Catholics, Southern Europe and Western Europe) which is why Russia is Orthodox to this day and uses the Cyrillic alphabet and not the Latin one.

Honestly speaking, Arabs and Chinese (the two main ethnic groups in the world) are natural partners. Neither the Arabs nor the Chinese can truly trust the West whether it is the US/Western European powers or Russia (in the case of China). No historical grudges either. Long history of peaceful and successful trade. Similar history (recent) in terms of imperialism and meddling. Ancient history in common. Empire building in common. Regional influence (Arabs have influenced the neighborhood heavily) just like Chinese have influenced neighboring Japan and Korea (North and South) as well as Vietnam although China has historically been more introvert due to its enormous population and geography (think the Himalayas that COMPLETELY cut off China from South Asia or the might Gobi desert in the North and other arid areas of central China and an entire sea) while the Arab world due to geography (next to Africa, Europe and remaining Asia) was less isolated and more prone to invasions with the exception of non-coastal Arabia (due to geography again and other similar regions in the Arab world) .

My point is that such an alliance, 1) will not happen, 2) if it happens it will include the Arab world (self-explanatory), 3) Anyone familiar with China will understand that such moves are not part of the historical or even current Chinese "modus of operandi". Alliances are just a signed paper. The ground realities is what matters btw.

Also I don't see the US and China (necessarily) being sworn enemies forever or say in 50 years time. I think that the US will recognize (eventually) that their time period has ended (in terms of dominance) just like every empire before them realized it. In this day and age, I hope that humans have learned that wars are not necessary to realize this realization. IF not, we (humanity and the planet) is royally screwed. It will potential end us all. Obviously, that would not be worth it.
Think the collapse of the British Empire after WW2. This happened relatively peacefully. The data for instance shows that US-China cooperation dwarfs every other cooperation in the world. Both are economic engines of the world. Think about the healthy competition in terms of science etc. that this geopolitical rivalry has started. Not everything is doom and gloom. It's much better than the USSR/West rivalry due to lack of ideological or historical grudges. Look at what China has gained from Western influence, just like once Chinese ideas helped propel Western dominance among many other foreign influences (think the Arab world and Middle East here mainly historically).

Don't forget that the West (with the exception of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy) came to China's aid during the Japanese invasion and that the horrors of Nanjing where captured by a US photographer and thus gained the attention of the world.

That's also why I believe that eventually the Arab world (KSA and GCC mainly but not only - you can add Egypt here that has had no ties with Iran since 1979) that Arab-Iranian relations will return to normality as well eventually. It makes no sense otherwise in this day and age. What will be left will be a healthy "competition" of trying to outdo each other.

Sorry for the long post. Great to see a knowledgeable Chinese user here who writes in-depth posts in English.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

and Pakistan?

Pakistan needs to first give clean water to its residents,basic health facility purge on the looters, bring back looted money, fix its elections system, start punishing the criminals. In short be domestically strong, a strong foreign policy is a reflection of strong interior policy.Until then Pakistan would find it hard to make decisions that go against the flow.

 

[cocomo]

If anything the only axis in the region that is developing (at least economically) is between China and the Arab world. For instance, China has an official "Arab world policy" and paper that no other foreign country or region enjoys. This speaks volume. Of course excluding Pakistan as of now.

Chinese are not exclusivist power like America. China has relations with Iran and Arab world. It has relations with everyone except those that don't want to have a relation with China. As far as Americans are concerned they are trying to create blocs in Muslim world that are hostile to each other while other powers like Russia and China want to have relations with all Middle eastern countries.
Any engagement with other powers by Muslim countries will be interpreted as "axis" by the West. They deem themselves as the only people with the right to have influence in the Muslim lands because that has been true for centuries.

 

[Cybernetics]

I am glad that you said Islamic world and not Iran, because Iran other than having influence in impoverished and unstable small Eastern Afghanistan (due to linguistic, cultural and historic reasons - even though Tajiks consider themselves an independent people that also share a different sect - Sunni Islam) and among Shia (religious ones) communities in the Arab world (not even the majority) and Pakistan, Afghanistan and India, have very little influence other than the immediate region. Nor is Iran ever going to combat the West always due to the fact that most Iranians have a good opinion of the West and are closer to the European cultural sphere (as are the Arabs honestly) than the East Asian sphere. However Arabs (more recently at least not necessarily historically) have more reason to be more anti-West by nature. Israel being an extension of the West (US) helps that, not to say the meddling as well as regime support of regimes that are not always favored by locals.

Islamic world is a much broader concept than Iran. While Iran has deep cultural roots with many admirable aspects and a significant regional player, it is its own entity and somewhat divisive to the region, perhaps due to its deep history and identity. I agree that most of the middle east shares deeper cultural ties with Europe compared to East Asia, connections with East Asia was mostly cut while deeper relations with Europe was fostered over the previous centuries. Such sentiment is understandable and expected. Israel is somewhat of an dilemma from a Chinese point of view. Chinese hold no adverse opinions of Jews (some admire their contributions to science and commerce) and sees Israel as a hub for technology cooperation on the other hand the existence of Israel caused much of the conflicts during the past few decades in the Middle East. It wants to stay as far away from such security matters as possible, certainly not participating in a war of Armageddon. If somehow the region manages to get along, it would be wonderful.

I am afraid that neither Russia nor China will come to each others aid in case of a war unless it will be some major war (think WW3 here).

Both countries are currently too strained resource wise to worry about each other that much. I believe the best cooperation China and Russia can have is on the economic and industrial front, it will resolve some of Russia's constraints, including military ones. Once China has a more advanced industrial base, it would be able to supplement Russia's industrialisation, providing it security and a hedge against sanctions. This changes calculations for the West in the actions it will take on Russia.

China is doing similar to what KSA is doing in East Asia. Trying to have cordial mutually beneficial ties with all partners whether China, Japan or South Korea. All while China and Japan have historical disagreements (to put it mildly) that put the KSA-Iranian dispute (since 1979 moreover only, unless ancient times are to be included) to shame. KSA's largest trade partner is China but at the same time we have close ties on many fronts with Japan and South Korea. This is something that most pragmatic Arab regimes copy just like China is trying to make business with everyone in the region and the main regional powers irrespective of those regional powers relations with each other.

This is just Arabs returning to what they were historically known to be good at doing (at least from a Chinese perspective), being brokers and brilliant businessmen. China, Korea, and Japan all have disagreements with each other, some aspects of deep historic resentment, and some territorial disputes. In a strange way, all three can functionally get along just fine, simply out of pragmatism, "Set aside dispute and pursue joint development" - Deng Xiaoping during tour of Japan. I think it is wise and harmonious to try to get along with as many nations as you can, though sometimes you have to defend your interests. It is admirable what pragmatic Arab nations are doing. Had China been truly hostile to other nations, it wouldn't have enjoyed the development it has today.

The Arab world was the same since the Neolithic era (10.000 BC) began. It was disturbed occasional by short-lived Hitties attacks, emergence of the Persian empire, later Greek one (Alexander the Great), Romans and afterwards in 1258, Mongols and after that Turkic nomad invasions. Not all those outside entities impacted the Arab world to an equal degree or vice versa, some very little but mostly the impact/influnece went the other way around. A bit like conquerers of China. For instance non-Arab dynasties in the Arab world became easily Arabized within a remarkably short time period similar to how nomadic dynasties (think Manchu people (last Chinese imperial dynasty until 100 years ago) or Mongols etc.) You even had, at the height of religious wars in Europe, longstanding (to this day) Arab influences in Southern Europe from cuisine, language, art, music to architecture. All now considered indigenous.

I think what you have mentioned is the power of civilisation and the positive influence it brings upon people. There is a notion in China that barbarians (sorry if some find that term offensive) can be civilised when exposed to civilisation, the force of barbarism can never truly succeed in the long term. The Manchus today are quite progressive and educated people, I have some in my extended family. For sure the influence of Arabic culture can be seen around the region, many cities/towns in South Spain hold Arab influenced names and architecture. In fact I am a big admirer or Arab architecture (especially the fractal patters), there is a certain timeless feel to it. It is clear Arabs inherited a very ancient and deep culture.

Strangely enough most Russians identify with Europe and although consider Russia a "continent/culture" in itself they do not deny the historical facts, namely language (Slavic), culture (ChristianitY), appearance etc. Have in mind that modern-day Russia, pre-1917 was created and shaped by Europeans, mainly Germans. The Russian imperial family was of German origin, many reformers were of German origin etc. It started with Peter the Great's trip to Western Europe some 340 years ago. During that trip he realized that the isolated Russia, after being under the influence of the Golden Horde (nomadic influences once again - same theme) was WAY behind Europe do to never experiencing a renaissance. Not to say that Russia itself is a barely 1100 year old concept (Kievan Rus) and mostly what is modern-day Russia was a backwater like most of Europe, other than Southern Europe historically. Here I am talking about ancient history and not modern-day era. For instance Russian statehood began when a Rurikid prince (presumably of Scandinavian origin moreover) converted to Christianity under the influence of the Byzantine empire which is why Russia came under the Greek sphere of influence like most of Eastern Europe unlike the Latin sphere of influence (Catholics, Southern Europe and Western Europe) which is why Russia is Orthodox to this day and uses the Cyrillic alphabet and not the Latin one.

Isn't the entire European royal family Germanic in origin? Prince Charles also claims to be a descendent of Vlad the Impaler. Yes, most civilisation aspects of Russia is various pieces of European civilisation.

Honestly speaking, Arabs and Chinese (the two main ethnic groups in the world) are natural partners. Neither the Arabs nor the Chinese can truly trust the West whether it is the US/Western European powers or Russia (in the case of China). No historical grudges either. Long history of peaceful and successful trade. Similar history (recent) in terms of imperialism and meddling. Ancient history in common. Empire building in common. Regional influence (Arabs have influenced the neighborhood heavily) just like Chinese have influenced neighboring Japan and Korea (North and South) as well as Vietnam although China has historically been more introvert due to its enormous population and geography (think the Himalayas that COMPLETELY cut off China from South Asia or the might Gobi desert in the North and other arid areas of central China and an entire sea) while the Arab world due to geography (next to Africa, Europe and remaining Asia) was less isolated and more prone to invasions with the exception of non-coastal Arabia (due to geography again and other similar regions in the Arab world) .

I agree, history can be a guide, relations had been running for thousands of years. Current political climate is not a hindrance for cooperation. China knows of many aspects of the West that is negative (from China's perspective) but it is mostly understood from an academic perspective, not much hate or emotion behind it. I don't think Russia can find itself to be truly European (unless it relocates or changes geographic boundaries), it will always be Russia, perhaps an Euro-Russia in the future but it has deep and structural distinguishing features. Just as China cannot be a "pure" nation as understood by Koreans and Japanese. If you think China is isolated (more isolated than the Arab world for sure) Korea and Japan (some mountainous parts of China are just as isolated) are even more isolated. Indeed geography is a big determinant towards civilizational development more importantly what geography means in a given era.

Also I don't see the US and China (necessarily) being sworn enemies forever or say in 50 years time. I think that the US will recognize (eventually) that their time period has ended (in terms of dominance) just like every empire before them realized it. In this day and age, I hope that humans have learned that wars are not necessary to realize this realization. IF not, we (humanity and the planet) is royally screwed. It will potential end us all. Obviously, that would not be worth it.
Think the collapse of the British Empire after WW2. This happened relatively peacefully. The data for instance shows that US-China cooperation dwarfs every other cooperation in the world. Both are economic engines of the world. Think about the healthy competition in terms of science etc. that this geopolitical rivalry has started. Not everything is doom and gloom. It's much better than the USSR/West rivalry due to lack of ideological or historical grudges. Look at what China has gained from Western influence, just like once Chinese ideas helped propel Western dominance among many other foreign influences (think the Arab world and Middle East here mainly historically).

The US is not seen as an enemy in the traditional sense today by China either, just an milestone and competitor. Destroying the US is not part of any Chinese strategists' prescription. Many Chinese experts see the US as a relatively responsible superpower when compared to some and some potential ones, though there are still many nasty aspects. Rivalry and competition is necessary to prevent global stagnation. Great power competition is a sort of public good. From the Chinese perspective, becoming America is not a goal, surpassing it in various metrics is and ultimately rebuild the middle kingdom and transform it into a developed nation (plan is to do it by 2080). I think many in the US establishment is still in a cold war mentality when trying to confront China, they are trying to find an ideological struggle angle to this competition. Capitalism vs Communism, when in fact "communists" as the West understand it is not found in Beijing. Chinese don't care about others adopting any Chinese ideology, it is only for domestic consumption to rebuild China. Chinese leaders are more of nationalists trying to uphold Chinese civilization than anything else. Maybe there can be a clash of civilization angle? but it takes two hands to clap.

Don't forget that the West (with the exception of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy) came to China's aid during the Japanese invasion and that the horrors of Nanjing where captured by a US photographer and thus gained the attention of the world.

US is not seen as evil by Chinese just a competitor, many aspects of China's development was fostered by America. Even PLA hawks model some aspects of Chinese military on the US military, Chinese strategists study American history though their interpretation is different from the official American narrative. China had quite a lot of cooperation with Germany even during Japanese occupation of the North East/Manchukuo, it ended shortly after. The KMT and warlord armies modelled some of their armies on German/Prussian ones.

hat's also why I believe that eventually the Arab world (KSA and GCC mainly but not only - you can add Egypt here that has had no ties with Iran since 1979) that Arab-Iranian relations will return to normality as well eventually. It makes no sense otherwise in this day and age. What will be left will be a healthy "competition" of trying to outdo each other.

I think eventually that will become reality, right now the middle east is undergoing a process to reshape the borders drawn by European Imperial powers (UK, France) which is a bloody process.

Sorry for the long post. Great to see a knowledgeable Chinese user here who writes in-depth posts in English.

No problem, I enjoy occasional long posts. Thanks, I am just a novice with a passion, you are the real expert here.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Chinese are not exclusivist power like America. China has relations with Iran and Arab world. It has relations with everyone except those that don't want to have a relation with China. As far as Americans are concerned they are trying to create blocs in Muslim world that are hostile to each other while other powers like Russia and China want to have relations with all Middle eastern countries.
Any engagement with other powers by Muslim countries will be interpreted as "axis" by the West. They deem themselves as the only people with the right to have influence in the Muslim lands because that has been true for centuries.

That's why I am saying that such an alliance as claimed in that article and by Bannon (apparently) is never going to occur.

That's a simplistic view. Russia has their own interests in the Muslim world. Ask Central Asian nationalists (those are ruled by the same people since the collapse of the USSR) who live in Russian satellite states that. Or indigenous Muslim communities in Russia (say Caucasus) that were forcefully incorporated into Russia 150 years ago mainly. Very bloodily mind you. Google the Circassian genocide to begin with. That's the reason why Circassians ended up in the Arab world and Turkey (mainly) and why there are 4-5 million of their descendants to this day. Myself being a distant relative of one such noble woman that escaped those horrors and invasions of her native homeland beginning almost 250 years ago.

BTW unlike you (I believe) I am not a pan-Islamist. I prefer Muslim unity by default but I do not follow it blindly in this age and era of modern-day states and state interests, where religion has little if any role.

China indeed does not have such a history other than maybe in relation to the Uygurs but I am not too well-versed here to give a qualified opinion.

Not centuries but rather 2 centuries (at most). In most of the Arab world, just 1 century in fact.

BTW I am not in favor of such simplistic views. Neither the West, nor Russia nor China are necessarily a threat or an eternal ally despite each of them having positives and negatives. One should try to maintain cordial and mutually beneficial ties with everyone (perfect world) and take the best from each other and remove what is bad or what hurts you as every society is different in the context of the time period.

For instance undermining the Western influence on education, science etc. in the Arab/Muslim world of late or equating it with foreign policy (invasions in this case) or ills such as fast food (my personal opinion), are very different things.

I am pro-Chinese and never made a secret of it but I am not sure if I would be pro-Chinese if they replaced the US in terms of foreign policy. Hegemon's tend to piss off more people than they unite. I believe that the Chinese will learn from the US experience but as you know each empire has its expiry date and human creed can never be underestimated. Usually even most dictators (or whatever you will call it) start out promising until it's not longer the case.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Pakistan needs to first give clean water to its residents,basic health facility purge on the looters, bring back looted money, fix its elections system, start punishing the criminals. In short be domestically strong, a strong foreign policy is a reflection of strong interior policy.Until then Pakistan would find it hard to make decisions that go against the flow.

Oh sure! Invaders can wait until Pakistan can provide clean running water and educate its masses. Very observant indeed! Geopolitical realities will rather control the fate of its people until they'll grab it by the horns, water or no water!