Stable gov and huge saving are the key for rapid economy growth

[B.K.N]

@viva_zhao Sir I actually was saying that Pakistan's democracy is the reason for it's backwardness and by media I meant Pakistani media

 

[vi-va]

@viva_zhao Sir I actually was saying that Pakistan's democracy is the reason for it's backwardness and by media I meant Pakistani media

Got it. I am lack of humor.

 

[vi-va]

Our most general public is dishonest and only try to get rich by fraud and unfair manner for short term benefits and is not ready for hardwork for longterm results in a legit manner so unless our culture and work environment and ethics are changed we will remain in darkness for long

IMHO, it's the LEADER's responsibility to lead the nation and people. Frankly speaking, we Chinese betrayed our nation in 17th century, 18th century and 19th century. We basically lost 300 years. We were divided and ruled, people were depressed, our culture was destroyed. We deeply deeply lost any hope to be a great nation.

As I mentioned above, people won't appreciate what Chairman Mao brought to this ancient nation unless you compare China's history in 18th century, 19th century and 20th century. The change by Chairman Mao is not only materially, but spiritually which is far more important.

Chairman Mao changed 500 millions Chinese spirit in early 20th century and build a strong party to push this nation forward.

Without spiritual reforms, China won't go far.

 

[nahtanbob]

Exactly, we(Pakistanis and Chinese) must think dialectically about different political system. Use western concept to judge is silly, because we(Pakistanis and Chinese) have different history and culture than western ones. More importantly, we(Pakistanis and Chinese) have different geopolitical environment, economical situation and people.

your communist system is European - courtesy of German/British thinkers

 

[vi-va]

your communist system is European - courtesy of German/British thinkers

We are Socialism with Chinese character.

China political system is completely different from east Europe in cold war, otherwise we failed 30 years ago. The only thing in common is name. China political system is different from USSR even in 1949. After that, China reformed dramastically.

Don't judge a book by the cover, my Pakistan friends.

 

[nahtanbob]

We are Socialism with Chinese character.

China political system is completely different from east Europe in cold war, otherwise we failed 30 years ago. The only thing in common is name. China political system is different from USSR even in 1949. After that, China reformed dramastically.

Don't judge a book by the cover, my Pakistan friends.

the basic architecture is from the Soviets. Yeah you started deviating in the 1970s

 

[vi-va]

the basic architecture is from the Soviets. Yeah you started deviating in the 1970s

The basic architecture is from our history, which is meritocracy. China meritocracy has long history and use imperial examination system (科举制度) to select elites which is different from western one which is base on blood. China has been using imperial examination system since Sui Dynasty(隋朝) which is 1400 years ago.

We never truly followed what USSR did, we were never satellite state. One example is ON THE TEN MAJOR RELATIONSHIPS, Mao built the political system base on our tradition and his ideology. China has very similar political architecture with USSR in the high ranking, but Chairman Mao dislike USSR and believe its political system has flaw. China political system has deviated since Mao become the leader after Zunyi Meeting in 1935 instead of 1970s.

Another country is Yugoslavia, Tito dislikes USSR and the Yugoslavia was very different.

 

[nahtanbob]

The basic architecture is from our history, which is meritocracy. China meritocracy has long history and use imperial examination system (科举制度) to select elites which is different from western one which is base on blood. China has been using imperial examination system since Sui Dynasty(隋朝) which is 1400 years ago.

We never truly followed what USSR did, we were never satellite state. One example is ON THE TEN MAJOR RELATIONSHIPS, Mao built the political system base on our tradition and his ideology. China has very similar political architecture with USSR in the high ranking, but Chairman Mao dislike USSR and believe its political system has flaw. China political system has deviated since Mao become the leader after Zunyi Meeting in 1935 instead of 1970s.

Another country is Yugoslavia, Tito dislikes USSR and the Yugoslavia was very different.

if what you say is true there is little for other countries to copy from you

 

[vi-va]

if what you say is true there is little for other countries to copy from you

China stopped ideology fighting since Deng Xiaoping took in charge in 1978. USA today is till trying to export their ideology. The US ideology succeeded in east European countries for now, but failed in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. US exporting ideology has both positive and negative impacts on US national interest.

IMO, US ideology will weaken other nations in most cases, such as Mexico, Canada, South America and South East Asia. It will create chaos and divide the nation and people. Once a country adopt US ideology, there is noway out. It's an ideology trap in both political term and economical term.

I can understand why US is so addicted to exporting ideology. It can weaken rivals, divide their nation and make it easier to control. The Protestantism is another drive for exporting ideology, which is Duties of a Missionary.

China also benefit from US foreign policy, we can see more and more countries are weakened by US.

IMO, China doesn't export ideology for 3 reasons:
1, It's very hard to export our ideology, it's so unique and highly rely on our history, culture and people. China, South Korea, Japan and Vietnam all have Confucianism background, regardless political system difference, we are quite similar on social and economical policies.
2, It will create deeper conflicts with Western world.
3, Our ideology and policy will strengthen the nation greatly, as long as the nation can learn and digest our ideology and policy fully.

 

[nahtanbob]

China stopped ideology fighting since Deng Xiaoping took in charge in 1978. USA today is till trying to export their ideology. The US ideology succeeded in east European countries for now, but failed in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. US exporting ideology has both positive and negative impacts on US national interest.

IMO, US ideology will weaken other nations in most cases, such as Mexico, Canada, South America and South East Asia. It will create chaos and divide the nation and people. Once a country adopt US ideology, there is noway out. It's an ideology trap in both political term and economical term.

I can understand why US is so addicted to exporting ideology. It can weaken rivals, divide their nation and make it easier to control. The Protestantism is another drive for exporting ideology, which is Duties of a Missionary.

China also benefit from US foreign policy, we can see more and more countries are weakened by US.

IMO, China doesn't export ideology for 3 reasons:
1, It's very hard to export our ideology, it's so unique and highly reply on our history, culture and people. China, South Korea, Japan and Vietnam all have Confucianism background, regardless political system difference, we are quite similar on social and economical policies.
2, It will create deeper conflicts with Western world.
3, Our ideology and policy will strengthen the nation greatly, as long as the nation can learn and digest our ideology and policy fully.

at the end of the day other countries are looking for a magic wand or crutch or moral support or an outline to solve their problems
a pakistani leader cannot go to his masses and say Chinese are unique. we cannot copy them. we are condemned to a life of misery

 

[vi-va]

at the end of the day other countries are looking for a magic wand or crutch or moral support or an outline to solve their problems
a pakistani leader cannot go to his masses and say Chinese are unique. we cannot copy them. we are condemned to a life of misery

Very good point. I do agree that's a weakness of China in international arena, and we Chinese are very well aware of it since Xinhai Revolution in 1911.

The problem is, there is no universal value or political system can resolve every countries' problem. If there is, we Chinese would love to jump in.

US democracy is something like fashion dress, sexy and shining. The mass is blind, they follow the international wind direction.

It's the flaw of capitalism which the greed and self-interest deeply rooted. Only time can prove which system last longer.

When time goes by, the system and ideology US exported decayed, new revolution will come.

 

[nahtanbob]

Very good point. I do agree that's a weakness of China in international arena, and we Chinese are very well aware of it since Xinhai Revolution in 1911.

The problem is, there is no universal value or political system can resolve every countries' problem. If there is, we Chinese would love to jump in.

US democracy is something like fashion dress, sexy and shining. The mass is blind, they follow the international wind direction.

It's the flaw of capitalism which the greed and self-interest deeply rooted. Only time can prove which system last longer.

When time goes by, the system and ideology US exported decayed, new revolution will come.

US adopted representative democracy, bill of rights and federalism when most of the world was under monarchies
it has been extended to women and minorities over time. It has made life better for people in many countries.

due to cultural differences free market capitalism is not suited for lot of societies

 

[vi-va]

US adopted representative democracy, bill of rights and federalism when most of the world was under monarchies
it has been extended to women and minorities over time. It has made life better for people in many countries.

due to cultural differences free market capitalism is not suited for lot of societies

I never against representatives democracy, human rights is a good thing at least it looks like so.

The problem of representatives is for whom? So far I see money talks louder and louder in USA. The representatives represent Syndicat, Trust, Cartel and Concern more and more, otherwise there won't be "Occupy Wall Street". The rich get richer, the poor get poorer in USA. So the representatives democracy is a formalism, and people are awakening.

I am not arguing with you. I sincerely suggest USA to reform. It will be good for everyone.

Human rights is abused, domestically and internationally. In USA, human rights is excuse for self-interest on a lot of issues. Internationally, human rights is the tool to demonize other countries, otherwise USA won't sleep in bed with Saudi Arabia Mr. Bone Saws. You guys clearly knew well the human rights condition in Saudi Arabia by your standard. I am fine with it, but I am not comfortable with the hypocrisy.

It's quite frustrating to see USA lecture other countries. USA has lost the moral high ground for quite a long time. Every countries knew it, people in the world knew it, most Americans don't know it.

Sad.

 

[ziaulislam]

Without stable leadership(a strong gov), long-term planning is almost impossible. In western style democracy, short term election dominate domestic policy, which tends to spending the current money instead of saving and long-term investment.

In the opposite, China political system push economy growth by 5 years planning, now it's the end of the 13th 5 years planning since 1949. China gov makes plans for the next 5-30 years, no matter who is in charge.

Western countries looted every countries on earth in 19th century to achieve industrialization. That's how they gain their first pot of gold. Developing countries can only gain first pot of gold by saving unless you are rich oil countries. Western media just don't want people see the cold truth.

When we talk about saving, it means a lot of sacrifice. China sacrificed a lot in Chairman Mao's era to achieve industrialization. Not surprisingly, Chairman Mao was demonize by western media for decades and people buy it. Basically, no sacrifices no industrialization for developing countries.

China took loan from USSR and World Bank as well, but most of the investment come from ordinary people's saving. The same thing happened in Japan and South Korea, they really saved a lot in 1950s - 1990s.

If your gov can't sacrifice 1-2 generations and remain in charge, take a loan as first pot of gold.

If you don't want to take a loan, the whole nation and ordinary people must have the determination to sacrifice 1-2 generations for saving. Then you get the money to invest infrastructure, factories and R&D.

There is no other way around, my dear Pakistan friends.

Saving are impossible with artificially low inflation , overvalued rupee , unfair taxation, and low interests rates
Result Pakistan savings were just 10% of gdp 3x less than india /Bangladesh
No capital means no industry ..low interests just helps the govt borrowing and thats about it

 

[vi-va]

Saving are impossible with artificially low inflation , overvalued rupee , unfair taxation, and low interests rates
Result Pakistan savings were just 10% of gdp 3x less than india /Bangladesh
No capital means no industry ..low interests just helps the govt borrowing and thats about it

https://www.macrotrends.net/2575/us-dollar-yuan-exchange-rate-historical-chart

In 1983, USD to RMB exchange rate is 2.
In 1986, USD to RMB exchange rate is 3.7.
In 1993, USD to RMB exchange rate is 5.7.
In 1994, USD to RMB exchange rate is 8.7.

With such exchange rate, China import less and export more. It's clearly export oriented industrialization. This is common practice for Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia and China.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/e...IDN:BGD&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false


All those countries above have huge saving rate. (Adjusted saving (% of GNI) - gross savings).

So far it's the only way for developing countries to get industrialization. And China, Korea, Japan and ASEAN has succeeded to do so.