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South China Sea Forum

You mean only good for china and F everyone else just file your evidnece and present your case otherwise good luck being international outlaw
For China, the solution is to make use of disputes between ASEAN nations. Yes, not only one nation has the dispute with China in SCS, eath other has the same problem. To support one nation's interest in SCS as China's helper, it's good for us.

Anyway "nine-dash line" still be there and China ships still patrolling in waters, but we can leave back door for some nation who willing to work together with Chinese.
 
Indonesia to station Su-27, Su-30s on South China Sea islands

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The Indonesian Air Force (Tentera Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Udara, TNI-AU) is planning to upgrade its airbase at Ranai on Riau Island so it can be used by Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30 fighter aircraft, the base's commander said on 27 March.

Lieutenant Colonel Andri Gandy also revealed that upgrade work had recently been completed at the airbase, including the installation of runway lights, taxiway lights and integrated radar. The TNI-AU also plans to extend the length of the runway, which is currently 2.5 km long.

The new facilities will include hangars on the western part of the airbase and are being installed with the long-term goal of permanently deploying a squadron of Sukhoi fighter aircraft on the Natuna Islands.

The TNI-AU operates a mix of Su-27SK and Su-30MKs, with additional orders expected. The aircraft would join four Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters - a deployment that was separately announced on the same day by Indonesian Army (TNI-AD) Chief of Staff General Budiman.

Fajru Zaini, Indonesia's deputy coordinating minister for politics, law and peace, described the prospective Sukhoi deployment to Natuna as being a part of Jakarta's aim to develop a 'Minimum Essential Force (MEF)'. The concept, introduced by President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in 2005, aims to establish the nature and minimum scale of military capabilities that Indonesia should seek to deploy in response to a strategic threat.

On 28 February IHS Jane's reported on Indonesian Armed Forces plans to expand its presence in the area as a counter to instability in the South China Sea. The Natuna Islands, with a total land area of 2,631 km 2 , sit on Indonesia's maritime borders with Brunei, Malaysia, and Vietnam at the southern tip of the South China Sea.

Although Indonesia is not involved in the ongoing territorial disputes in the South China Sea over the Paracel and Spratly islands, Beijing's declared 'nine-dashed-line' overlaps with Jakarta's claim to an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the Natuna Islands region. The Natuna Sea has one of the world's largest gas fields, containing an estimated 46 trillion ft 3 (1.3 trillion m 3 ) of natural gas and condensates. The nine-dashed line is a demarcation used by China to define its claims to parts of the South China Sea.

Indonesia to station Su-27, Su-30s on South China Sea islands - IHS Jane's 360


Indonesia to deploy four Apache helicopters on Natuna Islands, begins pilot training
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Navy International
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Jakarta will deploy half its incoming fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters on the Natuna Islands. The matter was revealed by Indonesian Army (TNI-AD) Chief of Staff General Budiman during his visit to an army base in Semarang, Central Java on 27 March.

Indonesia is currently awaiting the delivery of eight Apache attack helicopters purchased from the US in 2013 for USD500 million. Though the aircraft are scheduled to arrive in 2017, Gen Budiman indicated that TNI-AD has already begun pilot training.

With half the Apache fleet to be deployed on the Natuna Islands, the remaining four aircraft will be stationed at an undisclosed location in Jakarta.

The Natuna Islands sit on Indonesia's maritime borders with Brunei, Malaysia, and Vietnam at the southern tip of the South China Sea. Although Indonesia is not among the states disputing ownership of South China Sea islands, Beijing's 'nine-dotted-line' claim overlaps with Jakarta's push for its exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the Natuna Islands region.

IHS Jane's reported on 28 February 2014 that the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) will deploy additional assets in waters off the Natuna Islands in Riau province as a pre-emptive measure against instability in the South China Sea.
Indonesia to deploy four Apache helicopters on Natuna Islands, begins pilot training - IHS Jane's 360
welcome to the club!

we will soon have more ships and subs than sharks in the SC Sea.

craps, i've made double thread, @Aeronaut or someone else please close one of my thread
you can try to delete it.
 
welcome to the club!

we will soon have more ships and subs than sharks in the SC Sea.


you can try to delete it.

for ships, i think we are getting new 3 Frigate this year and about 10 more patrol and missile ships and 2 more Frigates in 2016

for Subs, we must patiently wait till 2017 to get three more subs the acquisition for Submarine programme in Indonesia is too slow compare yours even though we already setting the target to acquire at least 12 subs before 2024

for patrol aircraft, we already planned to acquire at least 24 CN-235 MPA/ASW aircraft, not many but handful i think and around 2 to 3 units will be stationed in Natuna islands respectively

for fighter air craft, the most probably contender in acquisition progress to be placed in Natuna islands is one squadron Su-35BM or Jas-39 Gripen E

well just wait the news following after our General Elections, every political constellation can be changed upon the result of our elections. If PDI-P win the elections, probably they will bring Indonesia get closer to China and keep a distance against US and friends. If it is Demokrat Party (Indonesia ruling party right now) and their coalitions get the upper hand probably they will bring Indonesia get much closer to US, and in recent polls PDI-P got the upper hands against Demokrat Party. Just for your attention, PDI-P is very close with China links and they are very loyal to military procurement, unlike Demokrat.
 
Welcome to the conflict, Indonesia. I guess Indonesia is beginning to feel the heat from the chicom encroachment of its territory.

As for the Phillipines, I think those $500+ millions that they spend on the T-50 jets should have been used to buy offshore patrol vessels instead. You need vessels to be on patrol frequently to exert your sovereignty over your territory. If you neglect your frequent present over your territory for a long period of time and someone encroaches on your territory, your sovereignty will diminish
 
Indonesia to station Su-27, Su-30s on South China Sea islands

1529602_-_main.jpg


The Indonesian Air Force (Tentera Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Udara, TNI-AU) is planning to upgrade its airbase at Ranai on Riau Island so it can be used by Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30 fighter aircraft, the base's commander said on 27 March.

Lieutenant Colonel Andri Gandy also revealed that upgrade work had recently been completed at the airbase, including the installation of runway lights, taxiway lights and integrated radar. The TNI-AU also plans to extend the length of the runway, which is currently 2.5 km long.

The new facilities will include hangars on the western part of the airbase and are being installed with the long-term goal of permanently deploying a squadron of Sukhoi fighter aircraft on the Natuna Islands.

The TNI-AU operates a mix of Su-27SK and Su-30MKs, with additional orders expected. The aircraft would join four Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters - a deployment that was separately announced on the same day by Indonesian Army (TNI-AD) Chief of Staff General Budiman.

Fajru Zaini, Indonesia's deputy coordinating minister for politics, law and peace, described the prospective Sukhoi deployment to Natuna as being a part of Jakarta's aim to develop a 'Minimum Essential Force (MEF)'. The concept, introduced by President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in 2005, aims to establish the nature and minimum scale of military capabilities that Indonesia should seek to deploy in response to a strategic threat.

On 28 February IHS Jane's reported on Indonesian Armed Forces plans to expand its presence in the area as a counter to instability in the South China Sea. The Natuna Islands, with a total land area of 2,631 km 2 , sit on Indonesia's maritime borders with Brunei, Malaysia, and Vietnam at the southern tip of the South China Sea.

Although Indonesia is not involved in the ongoing territorial disputes in the South China Sea over the Paracel and Spratly islands, Beijing's declared 'nine-dashed-line' overlaps with Jakarta's claim to an exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the Natuna Islands region. The Natuna Sea has one of the world's largest gas fields, containing an estimated 46 trillion ft 3 (1.3 trillion m 3 ) of natural gas and condensates. The nine-dashed line is a demarcation used by China to define its claims to parts of the South China Sea.

Indonesia to station Su-27, Su-30s on South China Sea islands - IHS Jane's 360


Indonesia to deploy four Apache helicopters on Natuna Islands, begins pilot training
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Navy International
1522113_-_main.jpg

Jakarta will deploy half its incoming fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters on the Natuna Islands. The matter was revealed by Indonesian Army (TNI-AD) Chief of Staff General Budiman during his visit to an army base in Semarang, Central Java on 27 March.

Indonesia is currently awaiting the delivery of eight Apache attack helicopters purchased from the US in 2013 for USD500 million. Though the aircraft are scheduled to arrive in 2017, Gen Budiman indicated that TNI-AD has already begun pilot training.

With half the Apache fleet to be deployed on the Natuna Islands, the remaining four aircraft will be stationed at an undisclosed location in Jakarta.

The Natuna Islands sit on Indonesia's maritime borders with Brunei, Malaysia, and Vietnam at the southern tip of the South China Sea. Although Indonesia is not among the states disputing ownership of South China Sea islands, Beijing's 'nine-dotted-line' claim overlaps with Jakarta's push for its exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the Natuna Islands region.

IHS Jane's reported on 28 February 2014 that the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) will deploy additional assets in waters off the Natuna Islands in Riau province as a pre-emptive measure against instability in the South China Sea.
Indonesia to deploy four Apache helicopters on Natuna Islands, begins pilot training - IHS Jane's 360

Why not Indonesia and Malaysia buys 70 JF-17s Block-II(later 70-110 JF-17 Block-IIIs) and about 50 K-8s and 50 Super Mushak along with some UAVs from Pakistan which are cheaper to operate.... And sell their equipment to other countries.
 
for ships, i think we are getting new 3 Frigate this year and about 10 more patrol and missile ships and 2 more Frigates in 2016

for Subs, we must patiently wait till 2017 to get three more subs the acquisition for Submarine programme in Indonesia is too slow compare yours even though we already setting the target to acquire at least 12 subs before 2024

for patrol aircraft, we already planned to acquire at least 24 CN-235 MPA/ASW aircraft, not many but handful i think and around 2 to 3 units will be stationed in Natuna islands respectively

for fighter air craft, the most probably contender in acquisition progress to be placed in Natuna islands is one squadron Su-35BM or Jas-39 Gripen E

well just wait the news following after our General Elections, every political constellation can be changed upon the result of our elections. If PDI-P win the elections, probably they will bring Indonesia get closer to China and keep a distance against US and friends. If it is Demokrat Party (Indonesia ruling party right now) and their coalitions get the upper hand probably they will bring Indonesia get much closer to US, and in recent polls PDI-P got the upper hands against Demokrat Party. Just for your attention, PDI-P is very close with China links and they are very loyal to military procurement, unlike Demokrat.
Unlike the Philippines, Indonesia is a military force to be reckoned with.
 
Why not Indonesia and Malaysia buys 70 JF-17s Block-II(later 70-110 JF-17 Block-IIIs) and about 50 K-8s and 50 Super Mushak along with some UAVs from Pakistan which are cheaper to operate.... And sell their equipment to other countries.


for what i bolded

I think we can't compare operational cost those equipment's without actual data released from the user :)

but i am agree in the acquisition of JF-17, Pakistan several years back has offer us to produce JF-17 at our aviation industries facilities, but the China expressing their concern about the possibility of the deal and they block it. Well, Indonesia still a threat in the eyes of Chinese with all of our ambiguity regarding South Chinese Sea issue at the times. And their judge is proved to be right, i am afraid. With all of our army and Air forces generals and Marsekal and institutions tend to dislike China and her ambitions in South Chinese sea.

Unlike the Philippines, Indonesia is a military force to be reckoned with.

still a low rank middle power, even cannot be compare to Vietnam or Singapore right now

if we got a more deterrence military muscles likes the South Korean or Turkiye has right now, i think the Chinese must think twice before touch our Natuna islands and water surrounding her, but it is still a dream we are currently trying to reach it right now.
 
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still a low rank middle power, even cannot be compare to Vietnam or Singapore right now

if we got a more deterrence military muscles likes the South Korean or Turkiye has right now, i think the Chinese must think twice before touch our Natuna islands and water surrounding her, but it is still a dream we are currently trying to reach it right now.
all takes time to get Indonesia army to become a formidable opponent. even right now China can´t push you over as they please.
 
For China, the solution is to make use of disputes between ASEAN nations. Yes, not only one nation has the dispute with China in SCS, eath other has the same problem. To support one nation's interest in SCS as China's helper, it's good for us.

Anyway "nine-dash line" still be there and China ships still patrolling in waters, but we can leave back door for some nation who willing to work together with Chinese.

Its illegal and illogical now the burnden is for country to prove your claims

Welcome to the conflict, Indonesia. I guess Indonesia is beginning to feel the heat from the chicom encroachment of its territory.

As for the Phillipines, I think those $500+ millions that they spend on the T-50 jets should have been used to buy offshore patrol vessels instead. You need vessels to be on patrol frequently to exert your sovereignty over your territory. If you neglect your frequent present over your territory for a long period of time and someone encroaches on your territory, your sovereignty will diminish

Its not the T50 its FA50 the Light Combat Aircraft simillar to the Old F5 fighter we once have to different things
 
Why there is no ‘new maritime dispute’ between Indonesia and China
April 2, 2014 / Evan A. Laksmana
In the last two weeks, there have been reports circulating that Indonesia is now officially standing up against China’s claims in the South China Sea.

Two days ago, Ann Marie Murphy wrote for the Pacific Forum PacNet newsletter that “Indonesia formally announces its dispute with China in the South China Sea”. She claims that, “Indonesian officials on March 12, 2014 announced that China’s nine-dash line map outlining its claim in the South China Sea overlaps with Indonesia’s Riau province, which includes the Natuna Island chain,” in a sign of a “significant policy shift.”

As she did not provide the source of this announcement, I can only speculate or assume that the source came from a piece authored by Zachary Keck The Diplomat ran a few weeks ago claiming that China has started a new “maritime dispute” with Indonesia.

Keck used a news report that cited Indonesian navy commodore Fahru Zaini, an assistant to the first deputy of the Coordinating Minister for Political, Legal, and Security Affairs (Menkopolhukam):

China has claimed Natuna waters as their territorial waters. This arbitrary claim is related to the dispute over Spratly and Paracel Islands between China and the Philippines. This dispute will have a large impact on the security of Natuna waters…[because] China has drawn the sea map of Natuna Islands in the South China Sea in its territorial map with nine dash lines.

Others have also picked up on his statement (see The Jakarta Globe, for example).

This alleged ‘dispute’ then is somehow seen as potentially problematic because, as Keck also suggested, Indonesia is beefing up its military presence and infrastructure in the area.

The overall impression therefore is that Indonesia’s defense modernization and deployment plans are somehow driven by China’s assertiveness in the South China Sea, and that now Jakarta has officially staked out its policy to challenge Beijing.

This impression is false for several reasons.

First, there is no maritime ‘dispute’ between Indonesia and China. Following the statement by Zaini, Indonesian foreign ministry spokesman Michael Tene said that “Indonesia has no maritime border with China” and that Indonesia is not a claimant state to the South China Sea dispute. Indeed, Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa clarified further on March 19,

We have to be absolutely clear about this…There are three seemingly related but separate issues. Firstly, there is no territorial dispute between Indonesia and China, especially about the Natunas. In fact, we are cooperating with China in possibly bringing about foreign direct investment plans in the Natunas. Second, we are not a claimant state in the South China Sea. Third, on the nine-dash line, it is true that we do not accept that. This is why we have asked for a formal explanation from China regarding their claims’ legal basis and background

This policy is of course not new. Jakarta has officially lodged a complaint to the UN a few years ago regarding the nine-dash line. In fact, Indonesia has consistently argued for the importance of the Natunas and how we should handle the South China Sea since the mid-1990s, including the management of the Workshop on Managing Potential Conflict in the South China Sea.

I have argued for Jakarta’s interest in the Natunas in 2011 for The Diplomat too. Daniel Novotny’s book has a long list of quotations from various levels of Indonesia’s defense and foreign policymakers since the 1990s that basically echoed Zaini’s sentiments: Indonesia is concerned that the Natunas could be endangered by China’s nine-dash line, but we will never officially admit a dispute with China because that would give credence to Beijing’s claims.

As the great late Ali Alatas once said about the matter, “the repetition of an untruth will eventually make it appear as truth”. In short, there is no significant policy shift on the matter.

I would add a caveat however that the status quo between China and Indonesia over the Natunas will remain until the day Beijing challenges Indonesia’s rights to explore the natural resources within our EEZs.

Second, on the military buildup that analysts are concerned about. The Natuna area has been a central feature in Indonesia’s external defense thinking since the 1990s. The largest ever tri-service military exercise under Suharto’s tenure in 1996 was based on a scenario in the Natuna islands. This has been the pattern for subsequent exercises since; though there is an additional “Ambalat component” to it recently.

The statements that the TNI leadership has been making lately about “flashpoint defense” and how the Natunas is a part of it, and how our latest military assets would be deployed in the area, should be taken with a grain of salt.

For one thing, the flashpoint defense (and the role of the Natunas in it) and the military modernization plans have been on the books since early to mid-2000s. In fact, I described the TNI’s planned flashpoint-based defense in a 2011 paper that included the Natunas (under Riau and Riau islands) based on a 2010 MoD document (formulated since mid-2000s). Here’s a snapshot of the flashpoint scenario:



For another, the procurement of advanced platforms like the Sukhois and Leopard MBTs and others is part of the Minimum Essential Force (MEF) concept that has been around since mid-2000s. The MEF was designed less for a China threat and more for an organizational and technological revamp (the TNI lost numerous men due to accidents and platform decay in the past decade).

The current political climate however does provide the TNI leadership with the opportunity to further push for their pre-existing plans and deflect criticisms from civil society activists arguing against expensive weaponry. So again, no. Indonesia is not building up its military power against a resurgent China.

Finally, we can speculate whether Zaini was speaking for the Indonesian government. The clarification from the Foreign Ministry however suggest that he wasn’t. Does this mean that Zaini was speaking for the TNI? One of my contacts close with the defense establishment in Jakarta suggest this isn’t the case too. The TNI HQ has not been making any significant change or drastic plans regarding the Natunas and South China Sea for now.

We should also consider the fact that the Coordinating Ministry for Political, Legal, and Security Affairs is not a decision making body like the Ministry of Defense. They coordinate policies, not formally make them.

So why Zaini made the arguments is less clear. But what is clearer I think is: (1) he was not authoritatively tasked with announcing a major policy shift (nor is there a policy shift in the first place), and (2) he was merely echoing a long-held pre-existing sentiments within Indonesia’s policymakers since the 1990s.

Overall therefore, these three points alone should tell us that The Diplomat piece and others who followed it may have taken things out of their proper context.​
 
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The newly purchase of Indonesia show that they would use their muscles to face China
They pursue some Kilo-class submarines too

The 4th Kilo-class submarine launches on March for Vietnam
2 first kilo sub commissioned in Vietnam Navy

6_71731837.jpg
 
China is in East Asia, Indonesia is in South East Asia.

The distance between them is huge.

Why this 'conflict' then?

How big is 'South China Sea' man?
 
The root cause for all conflict is the China dashed line newly published ... claim all inside red dotted line.

Spratlys%2020110312_ASM965.gif


A Taiwanese sailor man has nothing to play, then he made marking onto a printed map, then by accident, the govt found it and claim something like Columbus found the America continental ... ( the govt, wrong , same to Columbus is wrong ... )

The sea and continental under other ownership
 
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The root cause for all conflict is the China dashed line newly published ... claim all inside red dotted line.

Spratlys%2020110312_ASM965.gif


A Taiwanese sailor man has nothing to play, then he made marking onto a printed map, then by accident, the govt found it and claim something like Columbus found the America continental ... ( the govt, wrong , same to Columbus is wrong ... )

The sea and continental under other ownership

Seriously?!

This is crazy. How can China claim all of this ocean as her "territorial waters"?

@Chinese-Dragon Is is true? How does China justify her this approach?

Territorial waters are defined under International Law...
 
Seriously?!

This is crazy. How can China claim all of this ocean as her "territorial waters"?

@Chinese-Dragon Is is true? How does China justify her this approach?

Territorial waters are defined under International Law...

Then the whole world know that One of Big Four country violated the International Laws several times.

They would do so because their neighbor seem to be weaker ...
The world must assist to strengthen China neighbor ... then China would be isolated
 
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