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South China Sea Forum

Do you really think we're afraid of a country that even the Taiwanese could neutralize in months? Get your head checked. We're afraid we'll be forced to kill people like you when that's the last thing on earth that we want.

get out. Jungle rule is not applied here.
 
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Right, so, US do nothing to help PH at Scarborough Shoal(2012).:dance3:


The Scarborough Shoal is a Philippine claimed territory as per the UNCLOS, which defines nations' EEZ. It is not technically 'core' Philippine soil, in fact, its not even an island, Its an outpouching of rocks, lol.

There are no Filipino ships, no soldiers, even civilian population living in said outpuching of rocks. Now, lets say the Philippines' military forces were attacked by an agitator state, or an invasion is to be conducted by an agitator state, then Manila's MDT with Washington would be enacted.

The point is this --- it is best for relevant states not to under estimate the American resolve. In the past, the Japanese Empire underestimated the American resolve to retake the Philippines , imagine, Japan had stationed over 430,000 soldiers of the Imperial Army in the Philippines.

American took it back. lol.

It is hard for China to understand since China has no history of any modern major naval battles or naval based invasion equivalent to the size in the Philippine Campaign. Afterall, in WWII, the Chinese navy was completely decimated by the Imperial Navy. There was no 'Chinese Navy'.

And no Chinese, British, Dutch can claim victory against the Imperial Navy; the only power to break the Imperial Navy was no other than the United States Navy. Through shear strategic visage.
 
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The Scarborough Shoal is a Philippine claimed territory as per the UNCLOS, which defines nations' EEZ. It is not technically 'core' Philippine soil, in fact, its not even an island, Its an outpouching of rocks, lol.

Right, like Diaoyu island.;)
That must be why US just did lip service in 2013.

It is hard for China to understand since China has no history of any modern major naval battles or naval based invasion equivalent to the size in the Philippine Campaign. Afterall, in WWII, the Chinese navy was completely decimated by the Imperial Navy. There was no 'Chinese Navy'.

You have one now. :-)

And no Chinese, British, Dutch can claim victory against the Imperial Navy; the only power to break the Imperial Navy was no other than the United States Navy. Through shear strategic visage.

Since IJN exist only 77 years (1868-1945) in history.:(
 
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The Scarborough Shoal is a Philippine claimed territory as per the UNCLOS, which defines nations' EEZ. It is not technically 'core' Philippine soil, in fact, its not even an island, Its an outpouching of rocks, lol.

There are no Filipino ships, no soldiers, even civilian population living in said outpuching of rocks. Now, lets say the Philippines' military forces were attacked by an agitator state, or an invasion is to be conducted by an agitator state, then Manila's MDT with Washington would be enacted.

The point is this --- it is best for relevant states not to under estimate the American resolve. In the past, the Japanese Empire underestimated the American resolve to retake the Philippines , imagine, Japan had stationed over 430,000 soldiers of the Imperial Army in the Philippines.

American took it back. lol.

It is hard for China to understand since China has no history of any modern major naval battles or naval based invasion equivalent to the size in the Philippine Campaign. Afterall, in WWII, the Chinese navy was completely decimated by the Imperial Navy. There was no 'Chinese Navy'.

And no Chinese, British, Dutch can claim victory against the Imperial Navy; the only power to break the Imperial Navy was no other than the United States Navy. Through shear strategic visage.


Except the islands, per the Philippines constitution as it was written by Americans, are not Philippines territory. If Americans want to start a war that many DoD officials believe they can't win, well.. they are the land of the free. They can get their Asia-Pacific version of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria or Ukraine. It's been over 20 years since they "won" Vietnam, so why not?

Are you bragging about defeating a heavily underfunded, corruption riddled, foreign-interfered ROC navy in WWII? You mean the same navy that rushed to deliver humanitarian aid to Japanese victims of the Kanto Earthquake? What is the point of bragging? Are you surprised that a country that has never in thousands of years wanted to subjugate the Philippines neglected the means to do so? Compared to a nation that was industrialized for only 70 years before rising to some of highest levels of savagery ever seen in history?
 
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@Nihonjin1051 don't pretend your sources weren't written specifically with China in mind. As was said before, look how many times China was mentioned in these articles.

The fact of the matter is, China is keeping the islands she has. And since China has the only legitimate claim to territories inside the 9-dash line, she is not going to drop the dispute under US-Japan pressure. I wonder what Japan thinks she's accomplishing here?


Who said I was pretending? The article's premise is there. There may be the mention of an agitator state in the South China Seas, which is , and you can't deny this my friend, the very catalyst for the bemused increase in military arms acquisition in the region. If one were to compare this to a particular phenomena in history , in recent history that is, it would be the Balkans prior to the 1st World War where every post-liberated state once under the Ottoman Empire's rule --- was rushing towards military arms purchases. Do read the history of the Bulgarian-Romanian-Greco Wars immediately after their respective liberation from the Ottoman Empire during the late 19th century, and also in context to the rise of nationalism in the region from without and within of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Its rather similar, and I say this emphatically.

Now, in regards to the Japanese role in the Philippines. As I have told you , in our many conversations in other threads -- and we've butted heads on this (you know this, i know this) --- Japan's involvement in the Philippines is a natural one:
a) The Philippines is home to over 1,300 Japanese businesses (the Philippines is a major offshore location for Japanese industry)
b) The Philippines is home to over 135,000 Japanese Nationals --- naturally we have an interest in the stability and growth of the Philippines as a significant number of our Citizens call the country a second home.
c) Japanese shipping traverses trough the South China Sea as well as the Philippine Sea (Western and Eastern)


Japan's involvement with the Philippines in defense matters aims to create stability, and this exercise is ane xample of that as it is training our Filipino counterparts how to react in congruence to threat level. As well as how to direct the proper branches of the military (their military) in conducting interdiction exercises --- emphasis on the use of Philippine Coast Guard , as well as Philippine Navy.
 
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Do you really think we're afraid of a country that even the Taiwanese could neutralize in months? Get your head checked. We're afraid we'll be forced to kill people like you when that's the last thing on earth that we want.
In your dreams, boy. Now post something related to the thread not the usual 50 cent army recital.
 
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Are you bragging about defeating a heavily underfunded, corruption riddled, foreign-interfered ROC navy in WWII? You mean the same navy that rushed to deliver humanitarian aid to Japanese victims of the Kanto Earthquake? What is the point of bragging? Are you surprised that a country that has never in thousands of years wanted to subjugate the Philippines neglected the means to do so? Compared to a nation that was industrialized for only 70 years before rising to some of highest levels of savagery ever seen in history?


I'm not bragging, I'm only citing a historical truth. In the 1st Sino Japanese War, the Beiyang Fleet was totally and completely annihilated (despite having one of the most modern warships in Asia, and Chinese naval commanders having foreign naval strategists on board advising them). In the 2nd Sino Japanese War, the Imperial Navy , since both the Chinese and Japanese states were at war, performed its duty --- unfortunately for China, this meant the eradication of all its surface combat ships. Effectively wiping out any naval threat.

Historically speaking, and strategically as well, the Japanese have no history of losing to the Chinese in any modern naval engagement.

Again, I'm not trying to degrade here, I am merely recanting historical truth.


Okay, let's get back to the subject matter okay? I don't want to divert any further.
 
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The U.S. military is considering using aircraft and Navy ships to directly contest Chinese territorial claims to a chain of rapidly expanding artificial islands, U.S. officials said, in a move that would raise the stakes in a regional showdown over who controls disputed waters in the South China Sea.

Defense Secretary Ash Carter has asked his staff to look at options that include flying Navy surveillance aircraft over the islands and sending U.S. naval ships to within 12 nautical miles of reefs that have been built up and claimed by the Chinese in an area known as the Spratly Islands.

Such moves, if approved by the White House, would be designed to send a message to Beijing that the U.S. won’t accede to Chinese territorial claims to the man-made islands in what the U.S. considers to be international waters and airspace.

The Pentagon’s calculation may be that the military planning, and any possible deployments, would increase pressure on the Chinese to make concessions over the artificial islands. But Beijing also could double down, expanding construction in defiance of the U.S. and potentially taking steps to further Chinese claims in the area.

The U.S. has said it doesn’t recognize the man-made islands as sovereign Chinese territory. Nonetheless, military officials said, the Navy has so far not sent military aircraft or ships within 12 nautical miles of the reclaimed reefs to avoid escalating tensions.

If the U.S. challenges China’s claims using ships or naval vessels and Beijing stands its ground, the result could escalate tensions in the region, with increasing pressure on both sides to flex military muscle in the disputed waters.

According to U.S. estimates, China has expanded the artificial islands in the Spratly chain to as much as 2,000 acres of land, up from 500 acres last year, according to U.S. officials. Last month, satellite imagery from defense intelligence provider IHS IHS -0.49 % Jane’s showed China has begun building an airstrip on one of the islands, which appears to be large enough to accommodate fighter jets and surveillance aircraft.

The U.S. has used its military to challenge other Chinese claims Washington considers unfounded. In November 2013, the U.S. flew a pair of B-52 bombers over disputed islands in the East China Sea to contest an air identification zone that Beijing had declared in the area.

Officials said there was now growing momentum within the Pentagon and the White House for taking concrete steps in order to send Beijing a signal that the recent buildup in the Spratlys went too far and needed to stop.

Chinese officials dismiss complaints about the island-building, saying Beijing is entitled to undertake construction projects within its own sovereign territory. They say the facilities will be used for military and civilian purposes.

“China has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters,” said embassy spokesman Zhu Haiquan, using the Chinese name for the Spratlys. “The relevant construction, which is reasonable, justified and lawful, is well within China’s sovereignty. It does not impact or target any country, and is thus beyond reproach.”

Mr. Zhu said that Beijing hopes that “relevant parties,” a reference to the U.S. military and its regional allies, will “refrain from playing up tensions or doing anything detrimental to security and mutual trust.”

China claims almost all of the South China Sea, one of the world’s busiest shipping routes, and its efforts to enforce control of the area in recent years have caused growing concern in the U.S. and in Asia, where several nations have competing claims, including the Philippines, a U.S. ally.

U.S. military aircraft have repeatedly approached the 12-nautical-mile zone declared by China around the built up reefs. But to avoid an escalation, the planes haven’t penetrated the zone. A senior military official said the flights “have kept a distance from the islands and remained near the 12-mile mark.”

U.S. planes have flown close to the islands where the building has been taking place, prompting Chinese military officers to radio the approaching U.S. aircraft to notify the pilots that they are nearing Chinese sovereign territory. In response, U.S. pilots have told the Chinese that they are flying through international airspace.

The USS Fort Worth, a combat ship, has been operating in recent days in waters near the Spratlys. “We’re just not going within the 12 miles—yet,” a senior U.S. official said.

The military proposals haven’t been formally presented to the White House, which would have to sign off on any change in the U.S. posture. The White House declined to comment on the deliberations.

Officials said the issue is a complicated one because at least some of the areas where the Chinese have been doing construction are, in eyes of the U.S. government, legitimate islands, which would be entitled to a 12-nautical-mile zone.

The proposal under consideration would be to send Navy ships and aircraft to within 12 nautical miles of only those built-up sites that the U.S. doesn’t legally consider to be islands, officials say.

Under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea, reclaimed features aren’t entitled to territorial waters if the original features are not islands recognized under the agreement, U.S. officials say. Under that interpretation, the U.S. believes it doesn’t need to honor the 12-mile zone around the built-up reefs that weren’t considered to be islands before construction there began.

Several U.S. allies in the region have been privately urging the White House to do more to challenge Chinese behavior, warning Washington that U.S. inaction in the South China Sea risked inadvertently reinforcing Beijing’s territorial claims, U.S. officials said. Some allies in the region have, in contrast, expressed concern to Washington that a change in the U.S.’s approach could inadvertently draw them into a conflict.

“It’s important that everyone in the region have a clear understanding of exactly what China is doing,” a U.S. official said. “We’ve got to get eyes on.” The U.S. has been using satellites to monitor building at the islands.

In recent months, the White House has sought to increase pressure on Beijing to halt construction on the islands through diplomatic channels, as well as by calling out the Chinese publicly in recent press briefings and government reports.

The U.S. Navy regularly conducts “freedom of navigation transits” in the region, including across the South China Sea. But the Navy has yet to receive explicit authorization from the administration to do so within 12 nautical miles of the artificial islands.

John Kerry, the U.S. secretary of state, is due in Beijing this weekend to make preparations for a visit to the U.S. in September by Chinese President Xi Jinping, who has made improving military ties with the U.S. a top priority.

A new standoff with China would add to mounting security crises facing the U.S. in other regions.

Last year, after Russia seized Ukrainian territory, the White House imposed sanctions on Moscow but so far has rebuffed Ukrainian requests for U.S. weapons. In the Middle East, Islamic State militants took over large swaths of Iraq last summer, prompting the U.S. to launch an air campaign against the group.

The U.S. has long maintained that it doesn’t take sides in the territorial disputes in the South China Sea, though it has a national interest in maintaining freedom of navigation in the area. In the last year, though, U.S. officials have stepped up its criticism of China’s efforts to enforce and justify its claims in the region.

U.S. officials say they are concerned that a decision not to send naval vessels into the zone would inadvertently help the Chinese build their own case for sovereignty in the area.

Chinese coast guard vessels routinely sail within 12 nautical miles of the Senkaku Islands, which are controlled by Tokyo but claimed by Beijing, which calls them the Diaoyu.

U.S. officials say they believe China sends vessels into the Senkaku area in the East China Sea because it wants to demonstrate to Tokyo and to others that Beijing doesn’t recognize the islands as Japanese sovereign territory.

China’s claims include territorial seas stretching out 12 nautical miles from all the Spratlys, where it controls seven reefs—all recently expanded into artificial islands. Rival claimants occupy several other islands, reefs and rocks.

Historical images from Google GOOG -1.24 % Earth and elsewhere reveal that reclamation work at most of the Chinese held reefs began after President Xi took power in 2012.

Much of the construction began in the past year, despite protests from neighboring countries, warming military ties with Washington, and a new Chinese drive to improve relations in its periphery.

U.S. officials say they have repeatedly asked China to stop the work, to no avail.

U.S. Military Proposes Challenge to China Sea Claims - WSJ
 
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Historically speaking, and strategically as well, the Japanese have no history of losing to the Chinese in any modern naval engagement.

Since IJN existed so short.

First sea war between China and Japan happened at 1598. You know the result. thats is why you emphasise "model" a lot.

Again, I'm not trying to degrade here, I am merely recanting historical truth.

More truth is UK(US after WW I) choosed Japan as a tool to balance China and Russia.

1st Sino Japanese War was started as IJN attack Chinese hired UK transport ship. UK kept silent.

Most of IJN's warships come from UK and UK lent 98,000,000 british pounds to Japan for the war.That is a huge money at that time.
Without support of UK, there will be not 1st Sino Japanese war.

2nd Sino Japanese War, start at 1937, and Japan was support by US until 1941/Jun.
Japan's 90% of oil is from US also steels and high technologies.

Why 1941/Jun but not 1942 or 1940? Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact (April 13, 1941).

Remember, UK/US support Japan to balance China and Russia but not other things. :-)






 
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I think this would be an opportunity for China to deploy their navy ships around the constructed islands. Also, Beijing could use this to show the domestic audience that USA is actively using its navy to contain China in plain public view.

Nevertheless, this proposed action will massively raised tensions to a whole new level between China and USA.
 
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The U.S. military is considering using aircraft and Navy ships to directly contest Chinese territorial claims to a chain of rapidly expanding artificial islands, U.S. officials said, in a move that would raise the stakes in a regional showdown over who controls disputed waters in the South China Sea.

Defense Secretary Ash Carter has asked his staff to look at options that include flying Navy surveillance aircraft over the islands and sending U.S. naval ships to within 12 nautical miles of reefs that have been built up and claimed by the Chinese in an area known as the Spratly Islands.

Such moves, if approved by the White House, would be designed to send a message to Beijing that the U.S. won’t accede to Chinese territorial claims to the man-made islands in what the U.S. considers to be international waters and airspace.

The Pentagon’s calculation may be that the military planning, and any possible deployments, would increase pressure on the Chinese to make concessions over the artificial islands. But Beijing also could double down, expanding construction in defiance of the U.S. and potentially taking steps to further Chinese claims in the area.

The U.S. has said it doesn’t recognize the man-made islands as sovereign Chinese territory. Nonetheless, military officials said, the Navy has so far not sent military aircraft or ships within 12 nautical miles of the reclaimed reefs to avoid escalating tensions.

If the U.S. challenges China’s claims using ships or naval vessels and Beijing stands its ground, the result could escalate tensions in the region, with increasing pressure on both sides to flex military muscle in the disputed waters.

According to U.S. estimates, China has expanded the artificial islands in the Spratly chain to as much as 2,000 acres of land, up from 500 acres last year, according to U.S. officials. Last month, satellite imagery from defense intelligence provider IHS IHS -0.49 % Jane’s showed China has begun building an airstrip on one of the islands, which appears to be large enough to accommodate fighter jets and surveillance aircraft.

The U.S. has used its military to challenge other Chinese claims Washington considers unfounded. In November 2013, the U.S. flew a pair of B-52 bombers over disputed islands in the East China Sea to contest an air identification zone that Beijing had declared in the area.

Officials said there was now growing momentum within the Pentagon and the White House for taking concrete steps in order to send Beijing a signal that the recent buildup in the Spratlys went too far and needed to stop.

Chinese officials dismiss complaints about the island-building, saying Beijing is entitled to undertake construction projects within its own sovereign territory. They say the facilities will be used for military and civilian purposes.

“China has indisputable sovereignty over the Nansha Islands and their adjacent waters,” said embassy spokesman Zhu Haiquan, using the Chinese name for the Spratlys. “The relevant construction, which is reasonable, justified and lawful, is well within China’s sovereignty. It does not impact or target any country, and is thus beyond reproach.”

Mr. Zhu said that Beijing hopes that “relevant parties,” a reference to the U.S. military and its regional allies, will “refrain from playing up tensions or doing anything detrimental to security and mutual trust.”

China claims almost all of the South China Sea, one of the world’s busiest shipping routes, and its efforts to enforce control of the area in recent years have caused growing concern in the U.S. and in Asia, where several nations have competing claims, including the Philippines, a U.S. ally.

U.S. military aircraft have repeatedly approached the 12-nautical-mile zone declared by China around the built up reefs. But to avoid an escalation, the planes haven’t penetrated the zone. A senior military official said the flights “have kept a distance from the islands and remained near the 12-mile mark.”

U.S. planes have flown close to the islands where the building has been taking place, prompting Chinese military officers to radio the approaching U.S. aircraft to notify the pilots that they are nearing Chinese sovereign territory. In response, U.S. pilots have told the Chinese that they are flying through international airspace.

The USS Fort Worth, a combat ship, has been operating in recent days in waters near the Spratlys. “We’re just not going within the 12 miles—yet,” a senior U.S. official said.

The military proposals haven’t been formally presented to the White House, which would have to sign off on any change in the U.S. posture. The White House declined to comment on the deliberations.

Officials said the issue is a complicated one because at least some of the areas where the Chinese have been doing construction are, in eyes of the U.S. government, legitimate islands, which would be entitled to a 12-nautical-mile zone.

The proposal under consideration would be to send Navy ships and aircraft to within 12 nautical miles of only those built-up sites that the U.S. doesn’t legally consider to be islands, officials say.

Under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea, reclaimed features aren’t entitled to territorial waters if the original features are not islands recognized under the agreement, U.S. officials say. Under that interpretation, the U.S. believes it doesn’t need to honor the 12-mile zone around the built-up reefs that weren’t considered to be islands before construction there began.

Several U.S. allies in the region have been privately urging the White House to do more to challenge Chinese behavior, warning Washington that U.S. inaction in the South China Sea risked inadvertently reinforcing Beijing’s territorial claims, U.S. officials said. Some allies in the region have, in contrast, expressed concern to Washington that a change in the U.S.’s approach could inadvertently draw them into a conflict.

“It’s important that everyone in the region have a clear understanding of exactly what China is doing,” a U.S. official said. “We’ve got to get eyes on.” The U.S. has been using satellites to monitor building at the islands.

In recent months, the White House has sought to increase pressure on Beijing to halt construction on the islands through diplomatic channels, as well as by calling out the Chinese publicly in recent press briefings and government reports.

The U.S. Navy regularly conducts “freedom of navigation transits” in the region, including across the South China Sea. But the Navy has yet to receive explicit authorization from the administration to do so within 12 nautical miles of the artificial islands.

John Kerry, the U.S. secretary of state, is due in Beijing this weekend to make preparations for a visit to the U.S. in September by Chinese President Xi Jinping, who has made improving military ties with the U.S. a top priority.

A new standoff with China would add to mounting security crises facing the U.S. in other regions.

Last year, after Russia seized Ukrainian territory, the White House imposed sanctions on Moscow but so far has rebuffed Ukrainian requests for U.S. weapons. In the Middle East, Islamic State militants took over large swaths of Iraq last summer, prompting the U.S. to launch an air campaign against the group.

The U.S. has long maintained that it doesn’t take sides in the territorial disputes in the South China Sea, though it has a national interest in maintaining freedom of navigation in the area. In the last year, though, U.S. officials have stepped up its criticism of China’s efforts to enforce and justify its claims in the region.

U.S. officials say they are concerned that a decision not to send naval vessels into the zone would inadvertently help the Chinese build their own case for sovereignty in the area.

Chinese coast guard vessels routinely sail within 12 nautical miles of the Senkaku Islands, which are controlled by Tokyo but claimed by Beijing, which calls them the Diaoyu.

U.S. officials say they believe China sends vessels into the Senkaku area in the East China Sea because it wants to demonstrate to Tokyo and to others that Beijing doesn’t recognize the islands as Japanese sovereign territory.

China’s claims include territorial seas stretching out 12 nautical miles from all the Spratlys, where it controls seven reefs—all recently expanded into artificial islands. Rival claimants occupy several other islands, reefs and rocks.

Historical images from Google GOOG -1.24 % Earth and elsewhere reveal that reclamation work at most of the Chinese held reefs began after President Xi took power in 2012.

Much of the construction began in the past year, despite protests from neighboring countries, warming military ties with Washington, and a new Chinese drive to improve relations in its periphery.

U.S. officials say they have repeatedly asked China to stop the work, to no avail.

U.S. Military Proposes Challenge to China Sea Claims - WSJ



The best solution to this is to draw out our naval forces. In fact, the Japanese and American naval and air forces are doing just this in regards to spreading our forces through the Western Pacific. American Forces directing forces to Guam, Tinian Island, and the Northern Marianas, with the Japanese deploying more forces into the Southern Islands such as Yonaguni Island, Miyako Island and Ishigaki Island.


Now with the goal in establishing a Japanese base in the Philippines --- we will draw out our interests. :)

I think this would be an opportunity for China to deploy their navy ships around the constructed islands. Also, Beijing could use this to show the domestic audience to support a narrative of USA actively using its navy to contain China.

Nevertheless, this proposed action will massively raised tensions to a whole new level between China and USA.


lol, you think it hasn't already begun?
 
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lol, you think it hasn't already begun?
Not in plain sight, but now I see Washington is no longer hiding its real ulterior motives about China nor is it really neutral about the maritime disputes from China and the other claimants. USA is really taking on all sides against China.
 
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In your dreams, boy. Now post something related to the thread not the usual 50 cent army recital.

Lots of Filipinas in Taiwan who will do all sorts of things for 50 cents, so you'd best watch your mouth, "boy".

I'm not bragging, I'm only citing a historical truth. In the 1st Sino Japanese War, the Beiyang Fleet was totally and completely annihilated (despite having one of the most modern warships in Asia, and Chinese naval commanders having foreign naval strategists on board advising them). In the 2nd Sino Japanese War, the Imperial Navy , since both the Chinese and Japanese states were at war, performed its duty --- unfortunately for China, this meant the eradication of all its surface combat ships. Effectively wiping out any naval threat.

Historically speaking, and strategically as well, the Japanese have no history of losing to the Chinese in any modern naval engagement.

Again, I'm not trying to degrade here, I am merely recanting historical truth.

There are lots of "historical truths" you can go over. Not sure if anyone in Japan realizes this, but the PRC is not late Qing China. I'm guessing the idiots that charged the IJN with the Beiyang Fleet thought the IJN was like Hideyoshi's joke of a navy too.

Sorry, I like history too much to see it be misused as a political prop :)
 
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Not in plain sight, but now I see Washington is no longer hiding its real ulterior motives about China nor its official neutrality about the maritime disputes from China. USA is really taking on sides against China.

Well, I don't think US can win a conventional or nuclear war against China in Asia area.
 
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