South China Sea Forum

[Mr Second]

How about the Chinese normal guy think about their nine-dashed line ?
With / or Without it ... what's good ? what's happen ?

China does not have that virtual territorial water area until now. Is there any affect to their life ?
None ...
But if China claims for that such a silly drawing, they stolen the fish of ASEAN fisherman ... and some more
that what we could clearly see by our eyes ...

Seriously, I can tell you what Chinese guys care is not the Nine-line, but the housing problem, studing problem, hospital problem, married problem.......... For the Nine-Line, no interest.

 

[BoQ77]

Seriously, I can tell you what Chinese guys care is not the Nine-line, but the housing problem, studing problem, hospital problem, married problem.......... For the Nine-Line, no interest.

Even a warship of India just come out of Vietnam - Da Nang port, they was alerted by China, "you are violating of China's territory.

Chinese Warship Confronts Indian Navy Vessel In The South China Sea

An unnamed Chinese warship allegedly challenged an Indian navy vessel as it left a Vietnam port on July 22.
According to the Financial Times, the Chinese craft insisted the Indian amphibious assault vehicle, the INS Airavat explain its presence in Chinese waters.

Indian officials claim the ship was 45 miles off the Vietnamese coast, well within Vietnam's economic zone.

India's senior foreign ministry spokesman told the FT that the Airavat was "contacted on open radio channel by a caller identifying himself as the 'Chinese Navy' stating that 'you are entering Chinese waters'".

The Airavat did not see any aircraft or ships in the area.

While China claims the entire South China Sea as its own, an Indian official familiar with the incident says, "Any navy in the world has full freedom to transit through these waters or high seas. For any country to proclaim ownership or question the right to passage by any other nation is unacceptable."

Read more: Chinese Warship Confronts Indian Navy Vessel In The South China Sea - Business Insider

Then what happen to regular ASEAN fishboat ? They were robbed by Chinese govt. semi-military ships everyday ... right in their EEZ but inside the nine-dashed line boundary

China is making ASEAN fisherman poorer time after time ... If they follow Chinese rule, they have nothing to catch for several months ... while Chinese fishermen still enter Korean water zone for fish ...

Think, what's happen if a bigger one threaten Chinese fisherman right in China's EEZ ?

 

[Mr Second]

Even a warship of India just come out of Vietnam - Da Nang port, they was alerted by China, "you are violating of China's territory.
What happen to regular ASEAN fishboat ? They were robbed by Chinese govt. semi-military ships everyday ...

China is making ASEAN fisherman poorer time after time ... right in their undeniable EEZ but inside the nine-dashed line boundary

Cannot answer you question. Like the same situation in Vietnam, Chinese people come from different area are quite different, as some Hanoi people dont like Saigon. I've never been to the China-Vietnam border whatever on the land or sea, where I live is a modern and developed china city or a nice Vietnam city near Halong Bay. no idea with those fishmen.

 

[EastSea]

Yeah, so I mean it, too Asia. Talking about 1979 again is meanless. Khmer Rouge, Vietnam's Dream about the whole Indochina and China's attack are all unwise. But really no mean to talk now. The Cold war will never return again.

Chinese lie about Indochine federation. Lying is no good. Deng Xiao Ping was very happy in Washington when Carter permit you attack Vietnam to revenge on us,
You can not deny that China backed Khmer Rouge to attack us first with chinese weapons. we do not permit Khmer Rouge and China attack us in the same time.

Frankly speaking, Japan change his policy, it is mistake of idiot warmongers sitting in Peking

 

[Mr Second]

Chinese lie about Indochine federation. Lying is no good. Deng Xiao Ping was very happy in Washington when Carter permit you attack Vietnam to revenge on us,
You can not deny that China backed Khmer Rouge to attack us first with chinese weapons. we do not permit Khmer Rouge and China attack us in the same time.

Frankly speaking, Japan change his policy, it is mistake of idiot warmongers sitting in Peking

History is full of lie, not only for China and Vietnam but for every country in the World, so no need to talk about that. About Deng, for sure he ordered the attack in 1979, however, without Deng, Vietnam people maybe still is living under the Planned Economy from USSR now.

 

[Grand Historian]

Xich Quy,Van Lang and Hung Kings existed in our history book, same way apply to Hua'Xia, Huangdi,etc...didn't existed, only in your history book.

It should be many native Vietnamese words are Sinictic in origin, because our ancestors have been settled to Dongding lake in ancient time, to Yangze river in Hung King time, and such sinitic words in origin were loan word. Please understood that our language is Mon/Khmer language, Mandarin is Sino-tibetan.

So what do you think about this problem is that our language is existed many sinitic words in origin ? my answer is that in the past Van Lang people and Hua/Xia people (or tribes) were living side by side neigboring in Yangzs River. So that in Mandarin language the word "Jiang" (River) is loan word from word "Krong" in origin Mon/Khmer language.

What is the matter with Van Xuan and no Dai Viet when Ly Bi who regained our independence form China ? This is same story in China, before Han Dynasty founded by Han Cao Tuo in Middle land of China, there were many Dynasties were existed like Shang, Zhou etc before.


There is debate that Ly Bi was Chinese, after 500 years (20 generations) assimilated with native JiaoZhi people, was there Chinese Dynasty ? and apply to China I can say Tang Dynasty is Turkistan, not China's Dynasty.

Note that in the time of Van Xuan, Vietnamese/King people didn't separated from Muong people. Muong/Kinh was in one ethnic group in this time. Base on reconstruction method for words, elites confirmed that Muong and King people before of 1,300 years JiaoZhi people was Muong people, no Kinh (Viets) existed in the time of Van Xuan.

as I said in my post on PDF many time that in Nguyen Dynasty people said "Han-Man", its Concept in the time Han Ji was writting system of Vietnam, apply for the idea "Kinh -Thuong" in Vietnamese. In the story book stated that "Han people" for Vietnamese/Kinh, it got the meaning of Majority (civilized) people in opposite to minority (barbarian).

Official mane of people in Vietnam was Annam people or Dainam people. we didn't said that we are Han Chinese. I think there is big mistake of such fake elites or there is weakpoint of using Han Ji for writing in the past. It could lead to misunderstanding.

I think you can understand my idea.

Exactly they appear in history books thousands of years past the actual event Western Sinologists don't recognize Xia or its predecessors the sage kings to exist,your legends are fabrications by Ngo Si Lien the Dai Viet su ky doesn't even mention these.

Your own history book Kham dinh Viet su Thong coung muc criticizes Dai Viet su ky toan thu in that all the regions of Van Lang are located in Northern Vietnam and that the Chinese states would be aware if Xich Quy was that large.

Nope,Vietnamese only recognized the Luo Yue as their ancestors and they lived in Western Guangdong,Guangxi and Northern Vietnam.

The Lake Dongting is nothing more then legends and should not be treated as history,Austro Asiatic and Mon Khmer are not exclusively Vietnamese.

I'm not saying Ly Bi is Chinese I'm saying his ancestors are.

The Tang emperors have Xianbei blood,however the Xianbei themselves mixed with "Han" Chinese so its fruitless determining the exact percentage of Xianbei or "Han" bloodline,the Tang emperors claimed descent from Li Guang a Han era general and even further by claiming Laotze.

That isn't to say the early Tang emperors disregarded their mother's side some were fluent in Xianbei language and some Tang clothing are derived from nomads.

My point about Van Xuan is that the Yue identity was already forgotten by then.

To the Nguyen civilization meant Chinese civilization.

Its quite sad to see nationalistic Vietnamese trying to claim that Southern China and by a extent Southern Han Chinese are lost Vietnamese,we are Han not Yue.

 

[EastSea]

History is full of lie, not only for China and Vietnam but for every country in the World, so no need to talk about that. About Deng, for sure he ordered the attack in 1979, however, without Deng, Vietnam people maybe still is living under the Planned Economy from USSR now.

but you still lie. he he,
every one could know that Stalin model for economy is wrong other than all the political system so called "socialism" is wrong too. Its reported that from 1979s years in time of Vietnam war, in North VN, land was divided to each peasant household by Kin Ngoc former Party secretary of Vinh Phuc province. Problem is who with his position in rule system of regime could change it first include politic system. Today, there is not USSR existed.

For us Deng is war crime. war apology statements was issued by the state of Japan with regard to the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Empire of Japan during world war II for people in Asia, but China didn't say it for Sino Vietnam war 1979, when innocent Vietnamese were killed by Chinese . Chinese look at yourselves first.

You said in early post that you don't like discuss with me, OK, I will ignore you if you don't insult us.

 

[Mr Second]

but you still lie. he he,
every one could know that Stalin model for economy is wrong other than all the political system so called "socialism" is wrong too. Its reported that from 1979s years in time of Vietnam war, in North VN, land was divided to each peasant household by Kin Ngoc former Party secretary of Vinh Phuc province. Problem is who with his position in rule system of regime could change it first include politic system. Today, there is not USSR existed.

For us Deng is war crime. war apology statements was issued by the state of Japan with regard to the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Empire of Japan during world war II for people in Asia, but China didn't say it for Sino Vietnam war 1979, when innocent Vietnamese were killed by Chinese . Chinese look at yourselves first.

You said in early post that you don't like discuss with me, OK, I will ignore you if you don't insult us.

You are really laughable, I was angry before because your talk about Japan's invasion liked a joke, and you should read my message again to find out when did I insult you. BTW, your meaning in the last message was not very clear in English, so I only can guess them approximatly. First, I did write Deng ordered attack, didnt I? Which has showed my opinion on this war is that war was attacked by Chinese army first. Second, your opinion on socialism is quite subjective and ignore many economics knowledges. The most festure of socialism is the public ownership and people, according to what they did, can take their demands from a public authority by a certain standard. For sure, this theroy is probably going to make "lazy people" since the difference on people's supply always depends on making works end, nor making them finished, on the other side, however, the socialism sitll has its irreplaceable superiority. Stating a example to analyze it. the American Financial Crisis in 1930s. The liberal capitalism was always the proud of western countries, the key idea "Invisible Hand" was a opinion fron Adam Smith, who believed all the economic activities could have a smooth adjustment by the market itself, and governments should not care about anything, however, that crsis did break a hole onto the free market and the Three Rs was added Roosevelt's New Deal did name a new definition to the world's trend on economy area, in particular to the National Industrial Recovery Act, which law gave a rule on management, pricing, market allocation, wage standard, working time's arrangement, etc. Simply thinking that, this act did study many experiences from Stalin's mode, but the innovations are also visable as well. The America's experience, by the means of Roosevelt's Deal, do give us a fresh concept that the two antithetic theroies on paper can be cambined with a new sucessful mode, which can get along with nearly any countries in the World even at present. Today's difference between so called socialist countries and capitalist countries is the two theroies have a different rate in their economic system, insteads of one is taken place or much more modern by the other. About Vietnam's development, even the Vietnam's officers have said Vietnam's development do follow a good road which was built by China and Deng, no doubt, he is the pioneer. At last, I still want to talk about Japan. The Black Boat Incident showed the shogun's feudal rule to Japan had been outdated, and since that Japanese started the curtain down movement and Meiji Reform. The invasion of Japan made Chinese know their weak national power and I am very honored the God could give China a Japan to stay with. To Vietnam, yeah, Deng started the attack, but on the other side, the Vietnam leaders know how to make a evalution on him and no mean to say more.

 

[Mr Second]

but you still lie. he he,
every one could know that Stalin model for economy is wrong other than all the political system so called "socialism" is wrong too. Its reported that from 1979s years in time of Vietnam war, in North VN, land was divided to each peasant household by Kin Ngoc former Party secretary of Vinh Phuc province. Problem is who with his position in rule system of regime could change it first include politic system. Today, there is not USSR existed.

For us Deng is war crime. war apology statements was issued by the state of Japan with regard to the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Empire of Japan during world war II for people in Asia, but China didn't say it for Sino Vietnam war 1979, when innocent Vietnamese were killed by Chinese . Chinese look at yourselves first.

You said in early post that you don't like discuss with me, OK, I will ignore you if you don't insult us.

To avoid the missunderstand, I repeat again: To the war 1979, I never say Deng has No wrong todo that! You Think he is a crime, ok, as you wish and I dont want to argue this stupid war again.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Seriously, I can tell you what Chinese guys care is not the Nine-line, but the housing problem, studing problem, hospital problem, married problem.......... For the Nine-Line, no interest.

Yeah, we have same problem wt u, but maybe we r small country, so SCS(E sea) become one of our problems too. U said u r in Hai Phong, right. Do u know even Hai Phong kids in secondary school like Hong Bang school also dont like Chinese ?? Maybe they r taught to hate ur aggression, maybe they learn it from internet.

China cant attack VN like in 1979 now, so I hope that reasonable Chinese should tell the other not to make trouble to VN in the future. U killed our men in 1988 and ur men got killed mercilessly in 1990. Both will suffer more pain if problem in SCS(E sea) can not resolve.

Army since January 1988, has troops stationed seven Spratly reefs. The seven reefs are mostly suitable flooded reef, reef exposed at low tide, low tide vast expanse of water. Dizhan large reefs around everywhere, so the army only a few small reefs on the distribution and strength of comparative stagnation was at a disadvantage. Early garrison, because the defense is not perfect facilities, personnel stationed in South Reef smoked an accident occurs.

November 7, 1990, I found the Southern Command Nansha reefs lost radio contact.After the situation was reported to the South China Sea Fleet deployed immediately went to see the ship. Under the notification, the reef is a unit of Marines stationed in the preparation of 12 people, then should be 11 people (one reason temporarily off the reef). Inspectors found that the bodies of six soldiers on the reef, and another five people missing. Missing persons including reef Chang allegiance, vice reef long and correspondents. In addition to the personnel on the reef, the reef warrior Xu Huiping Yong Department reef due to the treatment of burns and survived. Inspectors found multiple bullet holes in the room, indicating where the fighting occurred. Then they picked up and from the underwater reef a few rifles, these guns are all our military garrison personnel standard rifle.

This event was caused no small vibration in the army, immediately set up by the South China Sea Fleet of the senior leadership responsible for the investigation team, in-depth and comprehensive investigation, and make rehabilitation work. Findings are confidential at the time, unable to understand the outside.

This strange incident, even if insiders are also controversial. Is encountered enemy special forces raid, fighting or other emergency occurs, the truth has not yet been fully understood.This incident, I analyzed are the following possibilities:

1, most likely by the army special forces is. Vietnamese troops in 1988, "3.14" Red Reef of Nansha sea battle at a disadvantage, must look for an opportunity to retaliate. But then I Nansha garrison high vigilance and patrolling troops, combat readiness, they are hard to find opportunities. I combined the naval prisoners of war captured in Zhanjiang Nansha trial, our government has not yet handed over to Vietnam. Since 1990, our military posture in Nansha is clear, I observe activity patterns reef and the ship's officers that they have already mastered their "revenge about" conditions ripe. According to common sense traces of science, this action does not leave any suspicious items, indicating that other means quite clever. Does not exclude the other is the master shooting, fighting, diving techniques, and even combat may wear body armor. If this action as a planned and premeditated military action, should be considered very successful. But not arbitrary conclusion is that after the successful implementation of this action the enemy, meritorious officers must reward, JiaGuanJinJue, will follow along with the media reports, trumpeted the so-called "heroic deeds", but did not. Things over the past 20 years, information and networks so advanced, Vietnam had not been seen in any public media reported. They do a job well done is confidential?

In addition to the newspaper, the Philippines, Malaysia, accounting for part of my Nansha Islands and, in theory, its military personnel have started to attack me in the reef may be. But the two countries have maintained friendly relations with China over the they dare decorum skin, desperate to take such a big political and military risks? Media in both countries are more open, we were not given any clues, so many years, it is no reflection.

 

[Mr Second]

Yeah, we have same problem wt u, but maybe we r small country, so SCS(E sea) become one of our problems too. U said u r in Hai Phong, right. Do u know even Hai Phong kids in secondary school like Hong Bang school also dont like Chinese ?? Maybe they r taught to hate ur aggression, maybe they learn it from internet.

China cant attack VN like in 1979 now, so I hope that reasonable Chinese should tell the other not to make trouble to VN in the future. U killed our men in 1988 and ur men got killed mercilessly in 1990. Both will suffer more pain if problem in SCS(E sea) can not resolve.

haha, Thanks for remind, but my nationality is Norwegian, borned in Shanghai and got University in Norway. I'll take care Norway's intrest first. Since so many affairs are about China in the forum, so I use Chinese flag. Vietnam people do like Chinese Culture and economy,

 

[Rechoice]

You are really laughable, I was angry before because your talk about Japan's invasion liked a joke, and you should read my message again to find out when did I insult you. BTW, your meaning in the last message was not very clear in English, so I only can guess them approximatly. First, I did write Deng ordered attack, didnt I? Which has showed my opinion on this war is that war was attacked by Chinese army first. Second, your opinion on socialism is quite subjective and ignore many economics knowledges. The most festure of socialism is the public ownership and people, according to what they did, can take their demands from a public authority by a certain standard. For sure, this theroy is probably going to make "lazy people" since the difference on people's supply always depends on making works end, nor making them finished, on the other side, however, the socialism sitll has its irreplaceable superiority. Stating a example to analyze it. the American Financial Crisis in 1930s. The liberal capitalism was always the proud of western countries, the key idea "Invisible Hand" was a opinion fron Adam Smith, who believed all the economic activities could have a smooth adjustment by the market itself, and governments should not care about anything, however, that crsis did break a hole onto the free market and the Three Rs was added Roosevelt's New Deal did name a new definition to the world's trend on economy area, in particular to the National Industrial Recovery Act, which law gave a rule on management, pricing, market allocation, wage standard, working time's arrangement, etc. Simply thinking that, this act did study many experiences from Stalin's mode, but the innovations are also visable as well. The America's experience, by the means of Roosevelt's Deal, do give us a fresh concept that the two antithetic theroies on paper can be cambined with a new sucessful mode, which can get along with nearly any countries in the World even at present. Today's difference between so called socialist countries and capitalist countries is the two theroies have a different rate in their economic system, insteads of one is taken place or much more modern by the other. About Vietnam's development, even the Vietnam's officers have said Vietnam's development do follow a good road which was built by China and Deng, no doubt, he is the pioneer. At last, I still want to talk about Japan. The Black Boat Incident showed the shogun's feudal rule to Japan had been outdated, and since that Japanese started the curtain down movement and Meiji Reform. The invasion of Japan made Chinese know their weak national power and I am very honored the God could give China a Japan to stay with. To Vietnam, yeah, Deng started the attack, but on the other side, the Vietnam leaders know how to make a evalution on him and no mean to say more.

About Vietnam's development, even the Vietnam's officers have said Vietnam's development do follow a good road which was built by China and Deng, no doubt, he is the pioneer

"Doi moi" policy made by Nguyen Van Linh 1986.

In reality, "Open to West policy " for economy, Min Ji Emperor of Japan did first in Asia. Both China, Vietnam copied from Japan, Korean and other South East countries did long time ago.

 

[Grand Historian]

grand historician, thank for your post. that explains me a bit more.

I read in a book over the history of China that the Manchus or Qing followed a very racism policy after they defeated the Ming. The Manchus rulers demanded as a sign of submission that all Han men had to shave their heads. Further they forbade mixed marriages between the native Manchus and Hans, and even any settlement into their homeland of Manchuria.

I don't have much knowledge on the Sino-French war I'll leave that subject to some one else.

How is it shaming the native Han population,from the emperor to the beggar all the Manchus and Han all had the same hairstyle my interpretation is it is used to solidify the Manchus and the Han as one Chinese people.

Funny thing is that the queue was recognized as Chinese bu the populace after the fall of Qing people were forced to cut it by the revolutionaries.

There is also the misconception of Hanfu being banned,the civliain population adopted Manchu clothing to emulate the elite there is no evidence of Hanfu being banned for the common people only government officials had to swtich from Ming Hanfu to Manchu clothing.

Ever see Beijing Opera?

What they are wearing is Hanfu.

There was no edict preventing Han bannermen from marrying Manchu and Mongol bannerwomen or vice versa,what was banned was mixing with the everyday Han Chinese though we all know even if something is illegal its still going to happen.

The emperors Kangxi,Qianlong and Jiaqing all had Han bannermen mother.

Han bannermen either married with the Manchus/Mongols,within their own banners or with the local populace,

Besides there are records of Ming deserters that settled with the Jurchens and were absorbed into the population.

The Manchu term for Han Chinese "Nikan" was a reference to those who adopted Chinese culture and spoke it whether they were truly descended from Ming settlers,Koreans or Jurchens didn't matter.

The Korean Shin Chungil noticed that Nurhaci and other Jurchens had many Chinese/Korean(as Koreans had the same naming style as Chinese it is hard to differentiate) workers and bondservants.

These Han Chinese were further subdivided those outside the Great Wall ie Liaodong Han Chinese and the Han Chinese that joined after ie deserting Ming soldiers/officials the former were treated better than the later and the Eastern Liaodong/Jilin Han(Tai Nikan) and Fushun Han(Fushun Nikan) bannermen were directly incorporated to the Manchu banners in 1740.

There are several prominent "Chinese" families the Li of Tieling,Shi of Guangning and the Tong of Fushun that greatly interacted with Nurhaci.

Individual Han Chinese rose to great ranks,Gong Zhenglu originally from Shaoxing,Zhejiang was doing business in Liaodong when he was captured by a raid however currying favor he was prized by Nurhaci was given wealth,wives and a job to tutor Nurhaci's sons.

The Eastern Liaodongnese Han soliders were also greatly respected and cherished by the Manchus.

The origin of the Li pf Tieling is speculated to be a Koreanized Jurchen who later moved to Ming China after the death of Li Rubo(brother to famed Imjin War veteran Li Chengliang) his nephews Li Zunzu and Li Sizheng as well as another relative Li Yongfang defected to Nurchaci and intermarried with Manchus.

The origin of Shi of Guangning and Tong of Fushun are both Chinese however they decided to fabricate their origins later on which I will explain in a moment.

The Tong of Fushun were descended from Han Chinese or Jurchens,Tong Dali a Ming infantrymen also the founder of the lineage married a women surnamed Wang(Many Jurchens adopted the surname Wang from Wanggiya so it is unknown if she is Jurchen or Han).

The point being after several generations even if they weren't Han to begin with they were Han in the eyes of their neighbors.

Anyways the descendants of the defector Tong Yangxing, eventually had a daughter the mother of Emperor Kangxi.

Kangxi's maternal uncle Tong Guogang in 1688 petitioned Kangxi using the claim that his family was descended from the Tunngiya Jurchen clan, and his relatives were elevated to the bordered yellow banner of the Manchus

Shi Huashan also petitioned Kangxi to be admitted under the guise his family was descended from Bukha and was granted his wish.

However both these lineages are false,Shi's imagined lineage was not found in the Suwan's(a Manchu group) ancestral records and the Tunggiya were founded later then the Tong of Fushun.

I'm not saying discrimination didn't exist what I'm saying is that even "pure" blooded Manchu probably have Han Chinese blood.

Information from the the Manchu Way by Mark C. Elliot:

Manchus bannermen outnumbered the Han Chinese bannermen in 1648 (206,961-389,436 vs 171,591-322,881) but by 1720 the Manchu bannermen were eclipsed (576,786-1,083,480 vs 766,279-1,442,747). That's not even mentioning the bondservants who were mostly Chinese.

No,Manchuria is a Western concept it didn't' exist during the Qing,true they forbade Han settlers but its not like they kicked out the existing Han living there.

For further reading:

The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China

A Translucent Mirror: History and Identity in Qing Imperial Ideology

 

[EastSea]

Exactly they appear in history books thousands of years past the actual event Western Sinologists don't recognize Xia or its predecessors the sage kings to exist,your legends are fabrications by Ngo Si Lien the Dai Viet su ky doesn't even mention these.

Your own history book Kham dinh Viet su Thong coung muc criticizes Dai Viet su ky toan thu in that all the regions of Van Lang are located in Northern Vietnam and that the Chinese states would be aware if Xich Quy was that large.

Nope,Vietnamese only recognized the Luo Yue as their ancestors and they lived in Western Guangdong,Guangxi and Northern Vietnam.

The Lake Dongting is nothing more then legends and should not be treated as history,Austro Asiatic and Mon Khmer are not exclusively Vietnamese.

I'm not saying Ly Bi is Chinese I'm saying his ancestors are.

The Tang emperors have Xianbei blood,however the Xianbei themselves mixed with "Han" Chinese so its fruitless determining the exact percentage of Xianbei or "Han" bloodline,the Tang emperors claimed descent from Li Guang a Han era general and even further by claiming Laotze.

That isn't to say the early Tang emperors disregarded their mother's side some were fluent in Xianbei language and some Tang clothing are derived from nomads.

My point about Van Xuan is that the Yue identity was already forgotten by then.

To the Nguyen civilization meant Chinese civilization.

Its quite sad to see nationalistic Vietnamese trying to claim that Southern China and by a extent Southern Han Chinese are lost Vietnamese,we are Han not Yue.

Ngo Sy Lien didn't fabricated by himself in Dai Viet Su Ky Toan thu. There is history book finished in 15th century.

He copied only from another book Lĩnh Nam chích quái (chữ Hán: 嶺南摭怪) "The wonderful tales of Lĩnh Nam" is a 14th-century Vietnamese historical work written in Chinese (chữ nho) by vi:Trần Thế Pháp.

Trần Thế Pháp did not fabricated by hinself too. He is collected all such public folktales, stories telling or writing by unknown people. So, he made his book 嶺南摭怪.

Its legandary history, It was debated by our elites and historian too. you can belive it or not.

 

[Mr Second]

"Doi moi" policy made by Nguyen Van Linh 1986.

In reality, "Open to West policy " for economy, Min Ji Emperor of Japan did first in Asia. Both China, Vietnam copied from Japan, Korean and other South East coYouuntries did long time ago.

"Doi moi" policy made by Nguyen Van Linh 1986.

In reality, "Open to West policy " for economy, Min Ji Emperor of Japan did first in Asia. Both China, Vietnam copied from Japan, Korean and other South East countries did long time ago.

Yeah, Japan did that best, but no the earliest.

"Doi moi" policy made by Nguyen Van Linh 1986.

In reality, "Open to West policy " for economy, Min Ji Emperor of Japan did first in Asia. Both China, Vietnam copied from Japan, Korean and other South East countries did long time ago.

Yeah, Japan was the most successful but not the earliest. Chinese westernization drive was much more earlier than Meiji Reform actually. If you read some books about China, Japan and Korea's history since 10th century, you will probably find their relation are very interesting.