South China Sea Forum

[Reashot Xigwin]

Indonesia dont even have an important location like Cambodia, dont try to lie. No one care abt ur country.

Beat it commie, you are beneath me.

 

[Grand Historian]

@Grand Historian
Hello GrandHistorian, have you read the article (about how Vietnam mistook China's islands to theirs) I handed to you few weeks ago? I tried to translate some of the main points, but lack the language skill.

Sorry,I forgot about the article you showed me.

I will translate in my spare time,so far I got the first page done would you prefer me to post my translations in increments or all at once?

Viet,I have to reread the Manchu Way and A Translucent Mirror so I'll respond to your post after a couple of days.

 

[Kyle Sun]

There is a word :dependency !

Check the old VIE history book , you might think it is a chinese history book.

 

[EastSea]

Han was a ethnoym of the Sinitic speakers in the central plains ever since the Northern Wei,for the Tang it was applied that Han meant the Tang dynasty while Fan are foreign states though not in the sense of ethnicity but nationality,during the Ming it was applied to both Northern and Southern Chinese,and the Qing made "Han" the official term for the Sinitic people they conquered while Hua was applied to Manchus and other minorities.

What I'm trying to establish is that Han was used to mean either as a toponym(Central Plains),the common Chinese man(regardless of ethnicty) or the native Sinitic speakers.

The Nguyen were identifying themselves as "Chinese" in culture.

For more information about the Han ethnicity read:

Critical Han Studies: The History, Representation, and Identity of China's Majority

Becoming Zhong Guo,Becoming Han: Tracing and Re-conceptualizing in Ancient Northern China , 770 B.C.- A.D. 581

Fan and Han: The Origins and Uses of a Conceptual Dichotomy in Mid-Imperial China,ca. 500-1200


No,it is unknown what ethonym the non Sinitic speakers of Southern China called themselves,they differed in language family and often warred with each other.

Furthermore the people of Northern Vietnam called themselves and were written as men of Jiao Zhi/Giao Chi they did not reuse the term Yue whether it be 越 or 粵 as an ethonym.

Despite the misconception that Vietnam was always struggling to break away from Chinese rule there was periods of relative peace such as rule by Shi Xie,so Northern Vietnamese only rebelled when there was a harsh governor,the regions of Guangxi and Guangdong were not pacified and heavily settled with Chinese until Tang.

Even Ly Bi called his kingdom Wan Quan/Van Xuan not Dai Viet,hell the Cantonese state of Southern Han was previously named Da Yue.

You should realize that the Vietnamese language has a lot of native Vietnamese words(I'm not talking about Sino-Vietnamese) that are Chinese in origin one theory is that Northern Vietnamese switched from a Sinitic language to a Muong language

Laqured Words : The Evolution of Vietnamese Under Sinitic Influences From the 1st Century BCE Through the 17th Century CE


There is no dispute,there is absolutely no historical or archaeological proof to back up the Xich Quy or Van Lang existence

I still find it hilarious how some Vietnamese use it as an excuse that they owned Southern China or that China was influenced by Vietnam.

The problem with your analogy is that the overwhelmingly majority of the ethnic Han population of Taiwan are descendants of those that migrated either during the Qing as farmers/merchants or arrived later due to the KMT fleeing to Taiwan.

Furthermore the theory that Taiwanese Han are actually sinicized aborigines is a minority view.

Since I can't post links to sources due to insufficient permissions, pm me if you need them.

we kicked you ***, chinese invaders. and regained our independence from China, its clear.

Taiwan was independence state, Farmosa Republic until year 1700 AD. Taiwan will declare his independence soon.

@Grand Historian

Hello GrandHistorian, have you read the article (about how Vietnam mistook China's islands to theirs) I handed to you few weeks ago? I tried to translate some of the main points, but lack the language skill.





The islands you have been owning for hundred years are nothing related to 西沙＆南沙 and China never changed their claim.

[Man Qing Kanton Governor admitted in the past that Island not belong to China]
Reference?

check your history, kid. what Canton Governor said in 1898 ? when Japanese cargo ship Imezi Maru and German cargo ship Bellona cargo ship were robbed in Paracel by Chinese sea pirates.

He said: "Parasel Islands not belong to Chia".

 

[Grand Historian]

we kicked you ***, chinese invaders. and regained our independence from China, its clear.

Taiwan was independence state, Farmosa Republic until year 1700 AD. Taiwan will declare his independence soon.

Xich Quy,Van Lang and Hung Kings didn't exist,until you provide sources the point is moot.

As I stated before there was no sense of Vietnamese prior to the Han annexation,the people of Jiaozhi didn't call identify themselves as Yue.

Many native Vietnamese words are actually Sinictic in origin.

Even Ly Bi named his kingdom Van Xuan not Dai Viet

Your lack of historical knowledge is appalling,Taiwan was never united under a single aborigine tribe even the Dutch couldn't manage their new colony until they hired Fujianese farmers and merchants.

The first Chinese regime was founded by Zheng Chengong then it was destroyed by the Qing in 1683.

If Vietnamese people hated Chinese so much why did the Ngyuen dynasty worship Chinese sages/kings and call themselves Han?

No,Taiwan would not dare go independent unless it wants to be obliterated.
.

 

[Snomannen]

check your history, kid. what Canton Governor said in 1898 ? when Japanese cargo ship Imezi Maru and German cargo ship Bellona cargo ship were robbed in Paracel by Chinese sea pirates.

He said: "Parasel Islands not belong to Chia".

All I know is that the Guangdong government used to send battleship to inspect Xisha and build statues over those islands

Sorry,I forgot about the article you showed me.

I will translate in my spare time,so far I got the first page done would you prefer me to post my translations in increments or all at once?

Viet,I have to reread the Manchu Way and A Translucent Mirror so I'll respond to your post after a couple of days.

Thank you so much~

 

[Mr Second]

Your link in English didn't mentioned about what Luong Thanh Nghi said as you stated in your early comment.

Please check following link on Viet's post. He posted it since the link I found was missing.

 

[EastSea]

Xich Quy,Van Lang and Hung Kings didn't exist,until you provide sources the point is moot.

As I stated before there was no sense of Vietnamese prior to the Han annexation,the people of Jiaozhi didn't call identify themselves as Yue.

Many native Vietnamese words are actually Sinictic in origin.

Even Ly Bi named his kingdom Van Xuan not Dai Viet

Your lack of historical knowledge is appalling,Taiwan was never united under a single aborigine tribe even the Dutch couldn't manage their new colony until they hired Fujianese farmers and merchants.

The first Chinese regime was founded by Zheng Chengong then it was destroyed by the Qing in 1683.

If Vietnamese people hated Chinese so much why did the Ngyuen dynasty worship Chinese sages/kings and call themselves Han?

No,Taiwan would not dare go independent unless it wants to be obliterated.
.

Xich Quy,Van Lang and Hung Kings existed in our history book, same way apply to Hua'Xia, Huangdi,etc...didn't existed, only in your history book.

It should be many native Vietnamese words are Sinictic in origin, because our ancestors have been settled to Dongding lake in ancient time, to Yangze river in Hung King time, and such sinitic words in origin were loan word. Please understood that our language is Mon/Khmer language, Mandarin is Sino-tibetan.

So what do you think about this problem is that our language is existed many sinitic words in origin ? my answer is that in the past Van Lang people and Hua/Xia people (or tribes) were living side by side neigboring in Yangzs River. So that in Mandarin language the word "Jiang" (River) is loan word from word "Krong" in origin Mon/Khmer language.

What is the matter with Van Xuan and no Dai Viet when Ly Bi who regained our independence form China ? This is same story in China, before Han Dynasty founded by Han Cao Tuo in Middle land of China, there were many Dynasties were existed like Shang, Zhou etc before.


There is debate that Ly Bi was Chinese, after 500 years (20 generations) assimilated with native JiaoZhi people, was there Chinese Dynasty ? and apply to China I can say Tang Dynasty is Turkistan, not China's Dynasty.

Note that in the time of Van Xuan, Vietnamese/King people didn't separated from Muong people. Muong/Kinh was in one ethnic group in this time. Base on reconstruction method for words, elites confirmed that Muong and King people before of 1,300 years JiaoZhi people was Muong people, no Kinh (Viets) existed in the time of Van Xuan.

as I said in my post on PDF many time that in Nguyen Dynasty people said "Han-Man", its Concept in the time Han Ji was writting system of Vietnam, apply for the idea "Kinh -Thuong" in Vietnamese. In the story book stated that "Han people" for Vietnamese/Kinh, it got the meaning of Majority (civilized) people in opposite to minority (barbarian).

Official mane of people in Vietnam was Annam people or Dainam people. we didn't said that we are Han Chinese. I think there is big mistake of such fake elites or there is weakpoint of using Han Ji for writing in the past. It could lead to misunderstanding.

I think you can understand my idea.

 

[EastSea]

Please check following link on Viet's post. He posted it since the link I found was missing.

read again the article in English you provided:

PM’s Yasukuni visit deals blow to Japanese-US ties

Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's shameful visit to the notorious Yasukuni Shrine on Thursday strikes a serious blow against US-Japan relations. The visit was completely unnecessary and directly flouted friendly and constructive advice from the Obama administration. Americans should view the present Cold War era alliance with Japan as not only unnecessary but in fact counterproductive given the trend of rising militarism in Japan.

Often people in the US and in Europe perceive that WWII started in Europe with Hitler's attack on Poland in 1939. But the fact is that the road to WWII started with the Japanese invasion of China in September 1931.

Then 10 years later, the Japanese treacherously attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. Americans will never forget this day of infamy and betrayal.

Abe's visit to the notorious shrine is a direct affront to US President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden who both have worked hard to calm tensions over issues in the East China Sea. Just recently, Biden on his visit to the region encouraged the creation of joint Sino-Japanese mechanisms for crisis management.

Obama and Biden are doing their best to respond to a changing world and to the emerging multipolar international system. They have been acting in good faith toward Japan on the basis that Japan is believed to be a friend.

The American people have not held a grudge against Japan about WWII. But the increasing militarism and unacceptable behavior of leaders such as Abe may well bring back memories of WWII and cause perspectives to change.

My godfather served in the US Navy during WWII. He fought in the Pacific. I remember as a child in the 1950s hearing about his participation in the Battle of the Coral Sea. He returned home after the war and lived out his days in San Diego, California. I still have some letters he wrote to my late parents during the war.

A cousin of my father was not so fortunate. He did not return from his duty in the navy in the Pacific as he died from a kamikaze attack against his ship.

There was never once that I recall a negative word about Japan or the Japanese in my family's household. The war was over and that was that. Soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen on both sides had done their duty for their respective countries. Time to move on, was the feeling Americans had.

This generous attitude of many in the older generation of Americans can change as Americans of the present generation and future generations reflect on WWII. The insulting behavior of Japanese politicians such as Abe, combined with Japan's trend toward militarization and extremism, may well open eyes and dispense with a heretofore "polite" attitude. The world has seen the results of such trends before. American opinion, if betrayed, turns rapidly.

Has Japan ever really sincerely apologized for WWII? Germany so apologized and the memory of Nazi horrors is seared into German consciousness. It has consistently demonstrated its good faith through its economic integration in Western Europe and through its constructive and peaceful foreign policy.

Abe's shameful behavior shows Japan's official attitude for the entire world to see. He is the prime minister of Japan. He is not a private citizen making a personal religious commemoration for spirits of the war dead.

Washington must reflect carefully on its national strategy and the Asia-Pacific component. So far, the unimaginative policy has been to continue the Cold War alliance structure and to revamp US relations with the region on the basis of increased military power projection to encircle a rising China.

The Abe shrine visit should be a clear warning to Washington that this strategy is deeply flawed and not sustainable. The US alliance with Japan and Japan's rising militarism may well prove fatally counterproductive.

The author is an educator and former senior professional staff member of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. opinion@globaltimes.com.cn

There is no name Luong Thanh Nghi founded.

The link of Viet is Vietnamese news paper. Its different in wording.

 

[Mr Second]

read again the article in English you provided:


There is no name Luong Thanh Nghi founded.

Vietnam expresses concerns, urges Japan to handle issue properly CCTV News - CNTV English

 

[EastSea]

Vietnam expresses concerns, urges Japan to handle issue properly CCTV News - CNTV English

sorry, not vietnamese, cctv new. but the nature is different.

Vietnam expresses concerns, urges Japan to handle issue properly CCTV News - CNTV English

sorry, not vietnamese, cctv new. but the nature is different.

 

[Mr Second]

read again the article in English you provided:


There is no name Luong Thanh Nghi founded.

I really have no idea with some of you guys now. Even a name still needs to be discussed from yesterday to today. Just want to Point out one most serious problem of asian people, Viets people, Chinese, korean, all have you guys care too much on some meanless things. Only Japanese people, sit down and concentrate on something, whatever science or litrature. How to make give yourself a good Life.

sorry, not vietnamese, cctv new. but the nature is different.


sorry, not vietnamese, cctv new. but the nature is different.

I cant find that. Yesterday a Vietnam friend posted that, and I just copied.

 

[EastSea]

I really have no idea with some of you guys now. Even a name still needs to be discussed from yesterday to today. Just want to Point out one most serious problem of asian people, Viets people, Chinese, korean, all have you guys care too much on some meanless things. Only Japanese people, sit down and concentrate on something, whatever science or litrature. How to make give yourself a good Life.


I cant find that. Yesterday a Vietnam friend posted that, and I just copied.

but your post was that:

I know China and VN having issue problem now, but even the spokeman of VN government Mr Luong Thanh Yi, who represent the Socialist Republic of Vietnam still announced: Japan should do those what can make Asia peaceful! Who are you? I said Japan is the deadline! Shamed on such Vietnamese!

Your summary is not correct, it lead to misunderstanding that Vietnam Govt supported Mr. Abe.

Note that my post is responded to your countryman, read again his post, he is aggressive chinese on PDF like Japanese aggressor in WW II,

Think more, how many Vietnamese were killed by Chinese in 1979.

 

[Mr Second]

but your post was that:



Your summary is not correct, it lead to misunderstanding that Vietnam Govt supported Mr. Abe.

Note that my post is responded to your countryman, read again his post, he is aggressive chinese on PDF like Japanese aggressor in WW II,

Think more, how many Vietnamese were killed by Chinese in 1979.

Yeah, so I mean it, too Asia. Talking about 1979 again is meanless. Khmer Rouge, Vietnam's Dream about the whole Indochina and China's attack are all unwise. But really no mean to talk now. The Cold war will never return again.

 

[BoQ77]

How about the Chinese normal guy think about their nine-dashed line ?
With / or Without it ... what's good ? what's happen ?

China does not have that virtual territorial water area until now. Is there any affect to their life ?
None ...
But if China claims for that such a silly drawing, they stolen the fish of ASEAN fisherman ... and some more
that what we could clearly see by our eyes ...