Some results for PLAAF-PAF Shahee exercise

[New World]

So, after 3 pages, who win on PDF?

 

[DJ_Viper]

It doesn't work that way. You don't need a 'heavy fighter' to fight another 'heavy fighter'. JF-17 is quite up to the mark for handling SU-30s.

Ok, really? It doesn't work that way? You think I am just a keyboard warrior writing crap on here? One SU-30 can carry 8-12 BVR missiles. Two, in a normal sortie, can lock onto an entire squadron of the JFT's and fire BVR missiles. If you take out 10 JFT's out of 20, what's the ratio of you going out of jets? A day or two?

Let's remain within limits compared to sounding jingoistic. I understand there are financial issues and that's the mother of all evil for the PAF. But don't come back and tell me how to fight a twin engine top line jet that even the USAF lost to in many occasions during the Red Flag. I haven't added Rafale's into the picture. So please, if you want to discuss something, be factual and not just chime in opinions.

 

[CriticalThought]

Ok, really? It doesn't work that way? You think I am just a keyboard warrior writing crap on here? One SU-30 can carry 8-12 BVR missiles. Two, in a normal sortie, can lock onto an entire squadron of the JFT's and fire BVR missiles. If you take out 10 JFT's out of 20, what's the ratio of you going out of jets? A day or two?

Let's remain within limits compared to sounding jingoistic. I understand there are financial issues and that's the mother of all evil for the PAF. But don't come back and tell me how to fight a twin engine top line jet that even the USAF lost to in many occasions during the Red Flag. I haven't added Rafale's into the picture. So please, if you want to discuss something, be factual and not just chime in opinions.

The result against USAF varied based on experience level of pilots sent forth by them. There is a famous video of a USAF official making fun out of the Su-30. It really is overrated.

Thunder is designed for first shoot first kill against Su-30 and that heavy load out will only serve to increase its radar signature. You seem to create the impression that a heavily armed Su-30 will be out for lunch break. This is an uninformed view. The outcome will depend on how the Thunder is wielded in battle. PAF philosophy is to harrass with Thunder while Viper goes in to get up close and personal. Meanwhile, transgressors will need to deal with our AD network as well. So why do we need 'heavy fighters' against Su-30?

The Rafale is a different beast altogether and you wouldn't catch me insinuating Thunder can take on Rafale even in my dreams. For that, we will have to wait for the fifth gen fighter.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The equation here is very simple.

A plane that has a bigger radar, can carry more BVR missiles, can fly higher and longer
will win.

in a Sukhoi Vs Jf scenario JF looses on each of the above counts.

 

[CriticalThought]

The equation here is very simple.

A plane that has a bigger radar, can carry more BVR missiles, can fly higher and longer
will win.

in a Sukhoi Vs Jf scenario JF looses on each of the above counts.

Until you consider the AEWACS factor and dual racks on Thunder.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Until you consider the AEWACS factor and dual racks on Thunder.

You can add as many predicates as you want.
That will not change the facts.

JF is a small plane, that can patrol limited territory, and do a bit of every thing at a low cost.

That is about it.

It can fill the numbers, it can fill some of the blanks, it cannot replace the role specific aircraft as I have mentioned before.

 

[CriticalThought]

You can add as many predicates as you want.
That will not change the facts.

JF is a small plane, that can patrol limited territory, and do a bit of every thing at a low cost.

That is about it.

It can fill the numbers, it can fill some of the blanks, it cannot replace the role specific aircraft as I have mentioned before.

There are no disagreements regarding role as a bomb truck. But to fight and win in A2A against Su-30 within the geographic areas of Pakistan, Thunder is very much up to mark. And with A2A refuelling, its range is also not a slouch. In the words of ACM Sohail, A2A refueling has been a game changer for us.

 

[Falcon26]

You can add as many predicates as you want.
That will not change the facts.

JF is a small plane, that can patrol limited territory, and do a bit of every thing at a low cost.

That is about it.

It can fill the numbers, it can fill some of the blanks, it cannot replace the role specific aircraft as I have mentioned before.

If Pakistani AD & extensive AWACS coverage (one of the largest fleet in the world) can track and locate SU-30s from long range, JF-17s can simply turn off their radar making their location almost impossible to determine, they can then fire their BVRs and the SU-30s will have no idea what hit them. In this case, it’s the SU-30s that are in for trouble and not the JF-17s. You seem to think being able to carry more BVRs is what determines an outcome. That’s very narrow view IMO. The Swedes would not have gone for a single engine Saab Gripens + Erieyes to counter host of Soviet aerial threats if this strategy wasn’t sound.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

mirage will soon be replaced by jf 17.

 

[Sinnerman108]

If Pakistani AD & extensive AWACS coverage (one of the largest fleet in the world) can track and locate SU-30s from long range, JF-17s can simply turn off their radar making their location almost impossible to determine, they can then fire their BVRs and the SU-30s will have no idea what hit them. In this case, it’s the SU-30s that are in for trouble and not the JF-17s. You seem to think being able to carry more BVRs is what determines an outcome. That’s very narrow view IMO. The Swedes would not have gone for a single engine Saab Gripens + Erieyes to counter host of Soviet aerial threats if this strategy wasn’t sound.

Whats wrong with you ?

How will turning off JF's radar make it invisible to Sukhoi ?

don't you think the Sukhoi's own radar can pick up the JF ?
Don't you think the enemy too, has awacs and AD ?
Don't you think the enemy's planes too can work in teams and distribute targets in real time ?

Guys,

Have a good look at anti aircraft missile. or any rocket for that purpose.
The point you should note is that it is a missile, with control surfaces ( fins ) and no wings.
It cannot generate lift.
Thus, it is most effective from higher to lower altitude.
Not so much the other way round.

 

[Falcon26]

Whats wrong with you ?

How will turning off JF's radar make it invisible to Sukhoi ?

don't you think the Sukhoi's own radar can pick up the JF ?
Don't you think the enemy too, has awacs and AD ?
Don't you think the enemy's planes too can work in teams and distribute targets in real time ?

Guys,

Have a good look at anti aircraft missile. or any rocket for that purpose.
The point you should note is that it is a missile, with control surfaces ( fins ) and no wings.
It cannot generate lift.
Thus, it is most effective from higher to lower altitude.
Not so much the other way round.

If the JF-17 radar is turned off, it will be “electromagnetically silent” to be detectable to Indian jets. It will rely on Erieye and other assets to continuously track the SU-30 and engage and the IAF pilot will not even know that a JF-17 is in the neighborhood. Granted, the Indians can also do the same thing, but keep in mind, PAF enjoys much more AWACS coverage than the IAF & especially the very small area they need to cover. India is a huge landmass and so it can’t cover the whole Battle space. In war, these sorts of tactical advantages amount to a whole deal.

JF-17 pilot networked with an ERIEYE is one heck of a deadly combo, especially against the SU-30s.

 

[CriticalThought]

Whats wrong with you ?

How will turning off JF's radar make it invisible to Sukhoi ?

don't you think the Sukhoi's own radar can pick up the JF ?
Don't you think the enemy too, has awacs and AD ?
Don't you think the enemy's planes too can work in teams and distribute targets in real time ?

Guys,

Have a good look at anti aircraft missile. or any rocket for that purpose.
The point you should note is that it is a missile, with control surfaces ( fins ) and no wings.
It cannot generate lift.
Thus, it is most effective from higher to lower altitude.
Not so much the other way round.

Thunder has been optimized for reduced frontal heat signature and it's small size naturally provides it LO characteristics. This has now been proven at the border where Flanker has had trouble acquiring a lock on the smaller plane.

The classic counter-exampld to your high to low scenario is the Viper vs Foxbat encounter between PAF and IAF. Lookup foxbat under @Windjammer

 

[Sinnerman108]

If the JF-17 radar is turned off, it will be “electromagnetically silent” to be detectable to Indian jets. It will rely on Erieye and other assets to continuously track the SU-30 and engage and the IAF pilot will not even know that a JF-17 is in the neighborhood. Granted, the Indians can also do the same thing, but keep in mind, PAF enjoys much more AWACS coverage than the IAF & especially the very small area they need to cover. India is a huge landmass and so it can’t cover the whole Battle space. In war, these sorts of tactical advantages amount to a whole deal.

JF-17 pilot networked with an ERIEYE is one heck of a deadly combo, especially against the SU-30s.

Do you even understand how Radars work ?

Thunder has been optimized for reduced frontal heat signature and it's small size naturally provides it LO characteristics. This has now been proven at the border where Flanker has had trouble acquiring a lock on the smaller plane.

The classic counter-exampld to your high to low scenario is the Viper vs Foxbat encounter between PAF and IAF. Lookup foxbat under @Windjammer

Is that what it is optimized for ?

You do understand, the optimized means a proper engineering target and design to achieve.

Anyway, You keep telling yourself whatever makes you happy.

 

[CriticalThought]

Do you even understand how Radars work ?



Is that what it is optimized for ?

You do understand, the optimized means a proper engineering target and design to achieve.

Anyway, You keep telling yourself whatever makes you happy.

Per honorable member messiach, special attention has been given to the inlets to reduce heat signature. The only rational explanation is to increase its chances during first BVR exchange. Note Russian BVRs have a number of warheads, including heat seeking ones.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Per honorable member messiach, special attention has been given to the inlets to reduce heat signature. The only rational explanation is to increase its chances during first BVR exchange. Note Russian BVRs have a number of warheads, including heat seeking ones.

Not making use of brain, will only rust it.

1. Special attention is not the same as optimized.
2. Maximum Heat signature is at the exhaust NOT the inlets.

Now what i want you to do, is learn what is transonic flow,
Next you have to learn how the shape of the shock-wave is manipulated with the shape of the nose
Then you have to research , how engines may stall and be deprived of air, and what is done to stop these condidtions.
then, you have to reason, between what you learned and radar efficiency trade offs.

Per honorable member messiach, !!
@messiach the boy thinks you are royalty !

I don't know when we will come out of this mentality !