Some facts to clear up regarding India China

[halupridol]

You serious....Your cousin? He is Indian, right?...How?

cant post he's pic here......but believe me,,very similar..
btw i am from north east india....

 

[Edison Chen]

cant post he's pic here......but believe me,,very similar..

 

[Chronos]

It's me, do you believe?

Must avoid envy of good looks

 

[halupridol]

Must avoid envy of good looks

awww....dont get disheartened..

 

[dray]

now we are getting somewhere.

you are right method 1 is no guarantee, but as you said neither is method 2. They both guarantee the same thing, in 10 years Chinese leaders will change, in 5 or 10 years Indian leaders will do the same thing, I'm assuming one persona can't run for a third term?

So in essence without election, we are still kicking out the government in 10 years and a new batch will be in. From Xi's talk public opinion does matter to him clearly, and a few of his acts clearly demonstrates this.

This doesn't mean method 1 is better than 2, ooh no. But what it does mean is that method 1 will eventually become method 3.

So having said that what is right in this issue?

a little freedom for a long time then Freedom forever? Or no freedom for a short time than freedom forever?

Just two points to add:

So in essence without election, we are still kicking out the government in 10 years and a new batch will be in. From Xi's talk public opinion does matter to him clearly, and a few of his acts clearly demonstrates this.

No, you are not kicking out the government, the government is of Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and it remains, it is just the change of the leadership position within the party as well as in the country, the whole affair is an internal affair of the party, in USSR or in NK the heads changed, but will you call it a change of government? (I am not comparing them with China though). A true change of government is only possible if there are more than one party to choose from.

a little freedom for a long time then Freedom forever? Or no freedom for a short time than freedom forever?

This one is true, more or less the difference would be like that, but it won't be that simple though. For India, we being a federal country can't follow the 2nd option, for us 1st option will remain the most suitable option in spite of its perceived inefficiencies. And for China, the "Freedom forever" part may be difficult in true sense, CCP being a authoritarian communist party won't easily let the absolute power & control go out of its hand, there will be resistance from the party, and we are already witnessing some of that resistance, it would be a great achievement for the Chinese people if the transition process remains non-violent. And by freedom I mean true freedom, similar to something Canadians enjoy, as you have lived in Canada and witnessed, not the restricted & monitored ones with constant fear of repercussions.

First of all a nice question buddy.

Now as @DRAY has already explained, both the system have their merits & demerits. Method 1 (which China chose) has achieved a lot more than what Method 2 (Indian method) has so far but in the Long term when the masses become educated they will ask for more rights and the govt will have to give into their demand coz if they do not then there will be civilian unrest which may lead to a Civil War.
An example is the restriction in China for number of kids a couple can have, now they have relaxed it. So in essence the Method 1 will have to incorporate the merits of Method 2 & that will take it more closer to being a Democracy.

You have taken Method 3 (Canadian system) as a benchmark which in itself is a Democracy with more freedom to its citizens along with a better Standard of Living. And that is what both Method 1 & 2 are trying to achieve. However, for Method 1 to reach Method 3 it will have to come as closer to Method 2 without which it may not reach Method 3.

Yes, but I would say method 3 doesn't exist as a different system of governance, it is just a more polished & evolved version of method 2, as per the way Genesis categorized it, method 1 is a authoritarian communist Govt., method 2 is democracy, and he said method 3 is something similar to Canadian democracy, which is more evolved than Indian democracy, but it is a democracy, so method 3 is not a different system, but a matured version of Indian democracy which we are trying to achieve by improving the quality of our electorate.

 

[dray]

Uneducated and fool can be ruled by any ways - democratic or authoritarian. Just the rules of the game changes.
Even now we democratically elect our own monarch and I dont find any lack of authority in chosen ones. They act like they are born to rule. So lets us not see thing through theoretical glasses, one should look at alternatives, no point in being adamant and keep harming yourself.

Sometime I feel China is bad mouthed about human rights violation and bla bla just to feel good about not so good doing democracies. A common men is equally oppressed by system gurus here in India as well.

During emergency Indira Gandhi together with Sanjay Gandhi tried to implement an authoritarian single-party government of Congress permanently for at least a few decades till India is fully developed, though they failed, but had they succeeded, would it be a pleasant scenario today? The country is constitutionally a federal system, an union of states, it would have broken by now under such a system.

I would still prefer an option to choose our leaders and put them out of power if they don't deliver, that is the essence of democracy, I know ours is not a perfect democracy, it has several flaws, but our only option is to improve it, not to discard it.

 

[PoKeMon]

During emergency Indira Gandhi together with Sanjay Gandhi tried to implement an authoritarian single-party government of Congress permanently for at least a few decades till India is fully developed, though they failed, but had they succeeded, would it be a pleasant scenario today? The country is constitutionally a federal system, an union of states, it would have broken by now under such a system.

I would still prefer an option to choose our leaders and put them out of power if they don't deliver, that is the essence of democracy, I know ours is not a perfect democracy, it has several flaws, but our only option is to improve it, not to discard it.

woulda, shoulda and couldas.... China did.

Democracy is best but only when we are capable enough to decide pragmatically. I dont know why we need to know what a 70 year old lady in remotest of village not able read/write think who should represent India on international foras?

Democracy at best is best utilized by political parasites to mock at few intellects who can drive the nation to greater heights. These baboons make India look a banana republic with "authority" provided to them by "democracy".

Is there a real democracy for commonest of Indian?

 

[dray]

woulda, shoulda and couldas.... China did.

Democracy is best but only when we are capable enough to decide pragmatically. I dont know why we need to know what a 70 year old lady in remotest of village not able read/write think who should represent India on international foras?

Democracy at best is best utilized by political parasites to mock at few intellects who can drive the nation to greater heights. These baboons make India look a banana republic with "authority" provided to them by "democracy".

Is there a real democracy for commonest of Indian?

It is easy to criticize everything, difficult to offer an alternative solution, you want an authoritarian rule in India, then share some more details like who will do it, how it will be done, what will you do with the federal structure....etc. etc.

Don't get so frustrated so soon, we are on the right track, only our present driver is inefficient, but we have an option to replace the driver in next two months, you need to do your part prudently in that, there is something called collective intelligence, democracy is collective intelligence, we are going through a trial and error, take it as a learning experience.

 

[PoKeMon]

It is easy to criticize everything, difficult to offer an alternative solution, you want an authoritarian rule in India, then share some more details like who will do it, how it will be done, what will you do with the federal structure....etc. etc.

Don't get so frustrated so soon, we are on the right track, only our present driver is inefficient, but we have an option to replace the driver in next two months, you need to do your part prudently in that, there is something called collective intelligence, democracy is collective intelligence, we are going through a trial and error, take it as a learning experience.

I have been voting since I was 14. Till 18, not a single time I voted less than 10 times. Take this democracy.

Rural India votes and it votes for religion, caste and monetary gains. Its their votes which decides and with speed we are progressing, may be in next 7-8 decades, democracy might start fructifying.

 

[dray]

I have been voting since I was 14. Till 18, not a single time I voted less than 10 times. Take this democracy.

Rural India votes and it votes for religion, caste and monetary gains. Its their votes which decides and with speed we are progressing, may be in next 7-8 decades, democracy might start fructifying.

But you would agree that things have improved a lot since those days, election commission is doing a good job, and rigging in election have reduced to a negligible level, at least in most of the states.

And again, do you have any realistic workable option?

 

[SrNair]

@Genesis good post.
Now talking about democracy.Democracy can offer a power that no other system cant offer.It is called healing power of democracy.That is why India is remain like this without much damage.And that makes democracy is best suited system for India.Now just check history of our 67 years of independence.There is a time when IAF bombed Mizo capital in day light.You may know Operation Bluestar.etc etc.India face large number of insurgency ,challenges,.5 wars,decade long terrorism with outside help and funding.But still maintains its power ,peace ,stability and aim to future with good prospects and economy.That is healing power of democracy
For an efficient democracy its people must have good education.People can only make a good decision just only after that.So our democracy is not that good till 1995.Large number cheatings also happened at that time ,because lack of education.
Now we got TN Sheshan IAS at that time he transformed Indian democracy in to a more mature,powerful stable system.
Now our literacy rate is 74%.Our adults constitute majority in voters list this time .And adults literacy rate is more than 80%.
So you can see a good election exercise this time.
In fact India democracy is stable and it is growing .
Now about Chinese system.It is sure Chinese system give more development and prosperity to Chinese than any other system .
But when poverty decreased ,people will start to question govt.That will bring more trouble to an authoratarian system.Now you can say Chinese leaders will give more right to their people eventually.But it is not that easy.Humans basic nature is greed.
When we give less rights,they will ask more and at last they will try to topple govt.And that will not stop there.They start to hunt former govt actions for punishments.People freedom are like a river .If you block it .It will rise and when the time comes they will destroy that barriers.Democracy ensure free flow of that river.

I have been voting since I was 14. Till 18, not a single time I voted less than 10 times. Take this democracy.

Rural India votes and it votes for religion, caste and monetary gains. Its their votes which decides and with speed we are progressing, may be in next 7-8 decades, democracy might start fructifying.

But opposite is happens in South India.Peoples her exercise their fundamental rights with good sense and they do it only after 18 years.It is true some area in NI is still backward.But it will change.

 

[OrionHunter]

I'll say a simple example, I'm starting at method 1 you are at method 2, we are both trying to reach method 3, now if method 1 lets us reach method 3 quicker isn't that the better method? If in the end we are both at the same method 3?

In a nutshell, it's not only the end that's important, but the means to achieve that end. In my opinion, democratic means, even though slower off the block, is more sustainable than even an efficient authoritarian system in the long run.

 

[dbc]

I would still prefer an option to choose our leaders and put them out of power if they don't deliver, that is the essence of democracy

Do Indians choose their leader? I always thought the party that gains a majority get to pick the Prime Minister?
The picture does get a bit convoluted with members of parliament changing loyalties for personal gain.

In any case India needs serious reforms whatever you have right now isn't working.

 

[dray]

Do Indians choose their leader? I always thought the party that gains a majority get to pick the Prime Minister?
The picture does get a bit convoluted with members of parliament changing loyalties for personal gain.

In any case India needs serious reforms whatever you have right now isn't working.

I said "Leaders", not "Leader"!!

It's an indirect system where we choose our representatives from each constituency, and they in turn choose the PM or CM. Presidential system may not be suitable for a diverse country like India

But I agree, we need reforms, and reforms are happening, I repeatedly said our system is still evolving.

 

[PoKeMon]

But opposite is happens in South India.Peoples her exercise their fundamental rights with good sense and they do it only after 18 years.It is true some area in NI is still backward.But it will change.

Cut this regional crap. South Indians are the ones electing Rajas, Yedurappas. They are so separate that they fail to give any sort of leadership to united India in last 6 decades. Just helping out either congress or BJP in making government.

And the part I was talking about wasn't some remote backward area but NCR i.e. National Capital Region. The local leader always want to induct more of his supporters name in voters list.