Solving Pakistan's economic problems: Strategic guidance for the economy

[Jihad]

So I did hit a nerve - a sore one too!

The reason I take on such outlandish claims of hidden wealth are manifold: It creates false hopes, a sense of frustration, and ultimately disappointment.

None of these reasons are due to any opposition to Pakistan on my part.

Thar coal gasification will NOT provide 50,000 MW of electricity for 500 years.

There is no billions of dollars of gold in Baluchistan. Even if there is, it will not magically refine itself.

My comment about picking up a shovel that has you so riled up is a metaphor for performing actual physical work to utilize the actual resources that Pakistan does have, just like every other country on Earth.

All of the above statements are correct, like it or not.

If you like, I can honestly dissect the proposed "solutions" for the pointlessness they exemplify, just to add value to this thread.

Believe what you want to believe, whatever makes you happy.
False hope? And I assume people with your mindset and "outlandish" claims are the hope for a better future for Pakistan?

Being more specific now are we? Ofcourse the gold in Baluchistan is not going to refine itself, care to propose as to how it can be made possible to actually start working on this?

I'm sure it can't be as simple as "picking up a shovel", there's more involved in such a process, otherwise, I would've been rich myself by now.

I understand which message you're trying to convey, but at the same time you're also not giving the right example by diminishing these claims without putting up anything fruitful yourself.

You cannot deny certain facts, there is plenty of thar coal, and yes gold reserves have been found in Baluchistan and we've got plenty of it. Now the exact amount and the durability of these resources is ofcourse debatable.

To each his own, and if you think that this thread contains no value, then you're also guilty of contributing to its "level".

Again, so just because you say you're correct, everyone should comply? Sorry to burst your bubble, but in your eyes you may be correct, but in my eyes, you're just a skeptical person without constructive arguments and input when it comes to Pakistan.

You are excellent at downgrading and kicking below the belt in all Pakistani related affairs.

Be a man for once, or a Pakistani, and show the right way to your fellow countrymen.
Show some positive intent, just like the starter of this thread. And try not to be a smart-*** who thinks he's correct on each and every occasion. Because you are not.

Last but not least, you've become a little more specific now as to what you meant and what your intentions were, try and contradict the topic starter's claims, and give us some reasonable insight.

Perhaps a solution? Who knows? Surprise me.

 

[VCheng]

.......................

Perhaps a solution? Who knows? Surprise me.

Let me lurk on this thread for a bit to see if it can benefit from my creating a surprise for you first.

 

[Jihad]

Let me lurk on this thread for a bit to see if it can benefit from my creating a surprise for you first.

What ever you say man. I'll be looking forward to it.

 

[longbrained]

The main problem of Pakistan is lack of resources. All other problems come out of this single problem. Taxes are not going to solve any problem to a degree that would develop Pakistan. Already Pakistan has a low Gini score which mean taxes are not going to be very effective in redistribution of wealth. Pakistan has since ages provided educated and skilled labor for other nations, so on that front too, we are good if not perfect. But funding and wealth creation is the real problem. The only way is industrialization and being sovereign. Industrialization for wealth creation needs energy.

Now lets see what Pakistan has which can help fund the massive drive towards industrialization which requires hundreds of billions of dollars. According to estimates Pakistan has over 7000 billion (seven trillion) dollars worth of minerals. If these are extracted and sold on international market, then Pakistan fund a modernization drive. Pakistan can easily draw over 10 billion dollars a month for the next 65 years using those reserves. This would be enough to make Pakistan as advanced and glittering as South Korea. Pakistan has the world's third largest copper reserves. Only Rico Deq is estimated to hold over 250 billion dollars worth of copper gold mixture. Only pure copper sells for over 10,000 dollars a tonne on international markets. You do the math. Saudi Arabia exports oil. Pakistan can export, copper, gold, nickel, tin etc etc. Unfortunately the money that has to go developing these money making mines are being spent on Thar coal. Very unwise. Since Pakistan's coal deposits are of the poorest quality (low grade Lignite) which is of a very low value. Energy can be imported just like South Korea and Japan import energy. The little fund Pakistan has should be invested in money making mines which would then generate money for investment in more mines. Thar coal will never be able to generate enough money to even run itself let alone finance other things in the country. Pakistan first has to go after high value mines such as copper/gold/tin mines and then move to lower value mines. Unfortunately the mines currently being operational and under Pakistani ownerships are almost all coal and salt. Two of the cheapest products on international markets. That is the level of our planning. Ridiculous beyond belief.

 

[longbrained]

I hope with new gas and oil pipes coming to country, funds can be allocated to developing the mining industry in Pakistan instead of funding dubious energy projects.

 

[Faiez]

whether its a dictatorship/martial law or democracy. It does not matter. What matters is that ME and YOU change and improve our habits, respect the law, respect the rules, respect the nation.

Important thing to notice here is that no matter who becomes president of pakistan, he HAS to be a Pakistani citizen.

So if the citizens improve their habits, that means there will be lesser chance of a bad person becoming ruler.
Thats how a country progresses.

But here wat we do is that whenever someone sees a fault, starts blaming people and the state and does nothing to contribute in improving anything. Instead if he has enough money, he goes abroad, works and builds for infidels and pays them taxes, all for the sake of a "better life" and "freedom".

 

[Faiez]

So I did hit a nerve - a sore one too!

The reason I take on such outlandish claims of hidden wealth are manifold: It creates false hopes, a sense of frustration, and ultimately disappointment.

None of these reasons are due to any opposition to Pakistan on my part.

Thar coal gasification will NOT provide 50,000 MW of electricity for 500 years.

There is no billions of dollars of gold in Baluchistan. Even if there is, it will not magically refine itself.

My comment about picking up a shovel that has you so riled up is a metaphor for performing actual physical work to utilize the actual resources that Pakistan does have, just like every other country on Earth.

All of the above statements are correct, like it or not.

If you like, I can honestly dissect the proposed "solutions" for the pointlessness they exemplify, just to add value to this thread.

who needs 500years of coal supply for 50k MW power?

even if it gives 20k MW for 50 years, its enough for the industry to go BOOOM.
The past decade saw a boom in manufacturing. It was due to the right type of policy at right time. And investments in infrastructure.
Pakistan DOES have a fair amount of resources, whether u agree or not.
Regardless if we have the ability to extract it or not.

You cannot disagree with one simple fact, the most useful resources are always easier to extract than the useless ones like gold.
And please when u talk of resources, dont count dollars. Prices change all the time. What matters is the actual mass in tons of the resource.
Pakistan has proven reserve of atleast a 900Million ton iron ore. Thats enough to supply entire steel industry of pakistan for atleast next 30years easily and economically..
Coal reserves are also quiet large, i have forgotten how much. But u can buy the "geological survey of pakistan", it shud contain info on these things.

Sorry to break it to you but rizk is in control of Allah. You got wealthy not by going to USA, it was meant for you. You would have gotten ur share even if u hadnt gone USA..
What Pakistan has and has not is not for you to decide.

Recently there was a major discovery of an oil field in the pakistani part of arabian sea..Their was some hype, but then all of a sudden everyone forgot about it. Its becuz they hide these things. They dont want everyone to know we got oil. If they do, USA will attack.
Maybe thats the reason why they are considering military action in pakistan right now..

 

[Developereo]

1. Tax and Fiscal problems


The tax base should be broadened to include all of Pakistan's citizens. Currently, only a narrow minority of salaried individuals pay tax, that too in the public sector.

See List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The agriculture sector and most of the private sector doesn't pay income tax. We need to get national consensus to tax agriculture and business for the survival of Pakistan.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that the rich of Pakistan don't see others, or those poorer than them, as their fellow citizens. There is a lack of concept of nationhood, and the rich don't want to pay for the public services for the poor.

I am glad you put that at the top.

Tax evasion is THE #1 problem in Pakistan because it forms the basis for many of our other ills. Corruption, lack of public security and education, sellout foreign policy -- all of these happen because the basic social contract (taxes <-> governance) is absent in Pakistan.

When people are forced to pay proper tax, they will have a stake in the country's future and will demand accountability from the government. As it is, almost nobody pays tax, so who cares what the government does? Rich people are busy depositing money in their foreign bank accounts and securing a foreign passport.

Half-baked sarcasm is unnecessary. Atleast the starter of this thread comes up with ideas to help Pakistan's economy.

Well said!

Taxes are not going to solve any problem to a degree that would develop Pakistan. Already Pakistan has a low Gini score which mean taxes are not going to be very effective in redistribution of wealth.

The issue is not so much to redistribute wealth, but to pay for public services. To have a government that doesn't need to roam the world with a begging bowl and then be beholden to foreign interests. Tax evasion in Pakistan is an across-the-board acitivity. It's not just the super rich; even the middle classes don't pay taxes.

 

[longbrained]

The issue is not so much to redistribute wealth, but to pay for public services. To have a government that doesn't need to roam the world with a begging bowl and then be beholden to foreign interests. Tax evasion in Pakistan is an across-the-board acitivity. It's not just the super rich; even the middle classes don't pay taxes.

Taxes are economic tools for wealth redistribution. That is their only function. Public services are also a kind of wealth redistribution. As I said Pakistan has a low Gini score and higher taxes are not going to solve anything. Pakistan is like a sick body needing blood (wealth) transfusion. Drawing blood from the leg and injecting it into the arm is not going to solve anything. This media frenzy in Pakistan has really brain washed people. The only way to solve the problem is to bring blood from outside of the body or make more blood in the body. This can only be done by wealth creation. For example by using our mineral sources.

 

[Developereo]

Taxes are economic tools for wealth redistribution. That is their only function. Public services are also a kind of wealth redistribution. As I said Pakistan has a low Gini score and higher taxes are not going to solve anything. Pakistan is like a sick body needing blood (wealth) transfusion. Drawing blood from the leg and injecting it into the arm is not going to solve anything. This media frenzy in Pakistan has really brain washed people. The only way to solve the problem is to bring blood from outside of the body or make more blood in the body. This can only be done by wealth creation. For example by using our mineral sources.

Pakistan is becoming more and more like the wild west where it's every man for himself. Instead of paying taxes for public services, people cheat on their taxes and then hire private water trucks, buy private electric generators, hire private security guards and send their kids to private schools. This is not the way modern states work.

Part of living in a modern, civilized, nation state is the social contract where society provides an environment for you to make money and, in return, you pay taxes to ensure these services are available to all in society. These services include basic education, law enforcement and infrastructure. This is not 'wealth redistribution'; it's the cost of doing business. Most business in developed countries factor that cost into their accounts. Pakistan lacks these services because people perceive taxes as an optional item which they can opt out of.

This is why foreigners are wary of investing in Pakistan. The only foreign investors you will find will be gamblers who play for high risks/high rewards (because their ROI won't be taxed). Who in their right mind is going to invest some place where the eletricity is out 15 hours/day, where open gang warfare erupts in the major financial capital, and property rights are suspect at best?

 

[muse]

propose solutions for permanently solving Pakistan's economic problems

It's that "permanently" part that caught my attention -- it is as if longboat is suggesting that there are economic laws and that arithmetic of two plus two equals four is a kind of law.

Then Longbrained says the problem is one of a lack of resources ---- presumably Pakistanis lack brains?? What were Japan's resources??

So before we get to "solutions", what are the problems? Can we define these? We know low levels of tax collection is a definite problem -- WHY exactly is this a problem and what does this say about the kind of state and Economy Pakistan is??

We also know that high levels of economic activity is essentially the same as high growth -- So, What factors serve to propel high levels of economic activity and what factors decrease economic activity??

And we also KNOW that corruption is an ever present element in our Economy and governance -- WHY does corruption persists, in other words what causes and sustains corruption among officials and translates into the economy???