Society, Women and Behashti Zewar

[Zarvan]

How is the author of the article a cheater, fraudster and liar for pointing out things which you yourself acknowledge now are there in the book? What was with the "he has been exposed many times part" if your own opinion regarding the presence of such things in the said book has changed so drastically from "they aren't there" to "they form but a small part of it"? Why is criticism so unbearable for the hyper religious garden out there? He's right to point out the "selected selected things" since they are an attempt to breeding a slave mentality and are oppressing, he's not of the opinion that they are from Islam, now is he? He's a critic and he's more likely to choose parts which can be criticized, that doesn't again make the criticism invalid.



Maulana's personal opinion, as he himself points out, is in line with the "opinion of the wise" on the subject. It wasn't only one man then, who got these things wrong.

Not only in this case Mubarak liar has lied on several things related to Muslims and liars even this is biased crap. This moron is a known miserable retarded historian.

 

[syedali73]

Mate, despite the chance that you may have gotten the idea of "mockery of religion" from my aggressive tone or criticism, that hasn't been my intention. The entire time I have been here or every single post I have made, the criticism and anger has been directed at the author of the book for obvious reasons. I don't think (and will never) that the opinions presented in the book or the undertones of subservience and blind-following have anything remotely to do with the religion. And neither do I think that @Syed.Ali.Haider was trying to mock/insult Islam in this thread.

No, you are not being insulting, you have been a gentleman throughout, but that bad mouth moron is indeed mocking and ridiculing. I hate when such illiterate Islamophobes comment on Islam as if after Rasool Allah (PBUH) they are the sole authority. Throughout their pathetic lives, they have not read one Ayat with true meaning and understanding of it or one hadith in its correct context and they talk about Islam.

Not only in this case Mubarak liar has lied on several things related to Muslims and liars even this is biased crap. This moron is a known miserable retarded historian.

Please stop calling others liars. He may be ignorant and/or bias but what proof you have that he is deliberately lying? Tableeghi don't tableegh you about decency?

 

[VCheng]

And neither do I think that @Syed.Ali.Haider was trying to mock/insult Islam in this thread.

Despite saying this very clearly:

Islam, one of the most open-minded and fair religions ever

I get called more names by those who think that questioning books written thousands of miles away centuries later are just as above critique as the primary sources.

 

[I.R.A]

There are all kinds of ahadith, good ones and bad ones. The point is that none of them should be followed blindly without critical evaluation.

And that is what is required and what people have been doing, I agree with you.

 

[I.R.A]

@Secur

I already said criticism of this book is fine with me, I have no problem with that, its a man written book and it must have contradictions and suspicious quotes.

But you never replied to my question "What is the alternate" how this current modern society should look at the role of women? How women should behave in this society? Role models to follow of this modern society?

What you did is conveniently assumed / labelled it a deobandi thought, okay suppose I am deobandi, my wife is a government officer, my sister is working for foreign organisation, my aunts have been school teachers (though my grandfather was a strict person a kutter Bralevi, living in a remote tiny village but he got all his children educated). Tell me what are the role models to follow? Does your modern society tolerate a conservative brilliant working lady? I have seen females being rejected because they were not willing to take off their veils because office they were applying for did not like it.

What I see is that your modern society is hell bent on making women a showpiece, working women face hell of problems, I don't know if you have experience of Corporate or not but most of the vultures are those stylish Ganjas with awkward beards who feed and exploit the needs of a job seeking female, I have been part of interviews where the boss's selection criteria was how much pretty a lady looks, hardly a molvi with beard exploits them in offices, In nutshell do you think your modern society is willing to give women respect they deserve as being women, no matter what role they play?

Yeah, shut down any critical thought. Heaven forbid! Way to go!

Please know that religion lies at the heart of the existential problems Pakistan is facing today, and shutting down debate is no way helpful.

Not religion, the followers of religion have created problems that Pakistan is facing today, nobody cares to look and research what is being taught as religion, blind following whereas religions itself prohibits it. You will have to distinguish between religion and followers of religion. Wrong deeds and interpretation of followers cannot be blamed on religion.

 

[syedali73]

@Secur

I already said criticism of this book is fine with me, I have no problem with that, its a man written book and it must have contradictions and suspicious quotes.

But you never replied to my question "What is the alternate" how this current modern society should look at the role of women? How women should behave in this society? Role models to follow of this modern society?

What you did is conveniently assumed / labelled it a deobandi thought, okay suppose I am deobandi, my wife is a government officer, my sister is working for foreign organisation, my aunts have been school teachers (though my grandfather was a strict person a kutter Bralevi, living in a remote tiny village but he got all his children educated). Tell me what are the role models to follow? Does your modern society tolerate a conservative brilliant working lady? I have seen females being rejected because they were not willing to take off their veils because office they were applying for did not like it.

What I see is that your modern society is hell bent on making women a showpiece, working women face hell of problems, I don't know if you have experience of Corporate or not but most of the vultures are those stylish Ganjas with awkward beards who feed and exploit the needs of a job seeking female, I have been part of interviews where the boss's selection criteria was how much pretty a lady looks, hardly a molvi with beard exploits them in offices, In nutshell do you think your modern society is willing to give women respect they deserve as being women, no matter what role they play?

The alternate my friend is laying in between the two extremes, one extreme set by the radical Mullah, another by the radical liberals. Both the radical mullah and liberals are part of the problem and both are the reason for the existence of each other for both are a reaction to each other's philosophy.

 

[I.R.A]

The alternate my friend is laying in between the two extremes, one extreme set by the radical Mullah, another by the radical liberals. Both the radical mullah and liberals are part of the problem and both are the reason for the existence of each other for both are a reaction to each other's philosophy.

Exactly my point sir, but who will teach this to secular that they are making life difficult for people who are not willing to support TTP type ideology, who are willing to challenge and question religious scholars of today for their interpretations and actions, the silent majority who are labelled as "Draig Go / munafiq" by business Mullahs, and conservative terrorists' sympathizers by liberal secular, I have stopped watching news because I am fed up of talk shows where a liberal lady would be debating a Molvi and both would end up mocking Islam.

 

[syedali73]

Exactly my point sir, but who will teach this to secular that they are making life difficult for people who are not willing to support TTP type ideology, who are willing to challenge and question religious scholars of today for their interpretations and actions, the silent majority who are labelled as "Draig Go / munafiq" by business Mullahs, and conservative terrorists' sympathizers by liberal secular, I have stopped watching news because I am fed up of talk shows where a liberal lady would be debating a Molvi and both would end up mocking Islam.

Talk to like-minded people, and work on it starting from your family and close friends. I like to follow Dr. Ghamidi and even more so Professor Ahmed Rafiq Akhter.

 

[Zarvan]

Exactly my point sir, but who will teach this to secular that they are making life difficult for people who are not willing to support TTP type ideology, who are willing to challenge and question religious scholars of today for their interpretations and actions, the silent majority who are labelled as "Draig Go / munafiq" by business Mullahs, and conservative terrorists' sympathizers by liberal secular, I have stopped watching news because I am fed up of talk shows where a liberal lady would be debating a Molvi and both would end up mocking Islam.

You can't counter TTP and ISIS with coming up with so called moderate Islam. If you will try to promote the ideas of moderate Islam and enlightened moderation which retard Musharraf did you only end up giving more life to these groups so what should be done is you bring in scholars from all sects specially in case of Pakistan as we have all of them ask them to come up with common points and than implement them with full force.
Now as for this book many things are from Quran and Sunnah but many are Molana personal opinions, but the problem is this cheat Mubarak Ali is just quoting few parts which in itself is intellectual dishonesty. Secondly this Mubarak Ali said when Muslims went in Andalusia we burned down their library although history proves they had no library at first place.

 

[JonAsad]

A person living in the 21st century.

There are persons living in the 21st century that blow themselves up-
so back to square does the person living in 21st century is qualified enough to critically analyse a work of a scholar? -

 

[Zarvan]

There are persons living in the 21st century that blow themselves up-
so back to square does the person living in 21st century is qualified enough to critically analyse a work of a scholar? -

Not to mention 16000 on average people are killed in USA and 1 out of every 5 women in USA is a rape victim, and all these reports are of FBI and USA justice department. This all happens in 21st century. @Secur

 

[I.R.A]

You can't counter TTP and ISIS with coming up with so called moderate Islam. If you will try to promote the ideas of moderate Islam and enlightened moderation which retard Musharraf did you only end up giving more life to these groups so what should be done is you bring in scholars from all sects specially in case of Pakistan as we have all of them ask them to come up with common points and than implement them with full force.
Now as for this book many things are from Quran and Sunnah but many are Molana personal opinions, but the problem is this cheat Mubarak Ali is just quoting few parts which in itself is intellectual dishonesty. Secondly this Mubarak Ali said when Muslims went in Andalusia we burned down their library although history proves they had no library at first place.

Zarvan I have no idea of your history on this forum, people label you TTP supporter and whatever (ALLAH knows better), my problem with you is your misdirected energy only. You are lot better Muslim, lot better human than me and you have lot more knowledge than me, just adopt some softness and don't shoot down questions of people by labeling them liars, advising them to read this and that first and than talk to me. My advice and two cents rest is your Mrazi.

Now coming to the point there is no moderate or extremist Islam, there is just Islam so forget about me advocating moderate Islam (May ALLAH forgive me), I don't hold authority over Islam neither Islam needs me for its representation or propagation, I am nobody as far as Islam is considered. Musharraf did what he could to save and extend his rule. And people who criticize Jihad well are illiterates for me and people who are practicing jihad these days are a slap on face of Muslims that this is what happens when you play with your religion and let a section become its thekaydar.

TTP and ISIS can be countered there is no rocket science to it, it just needs will and questioning and abolishing these false ownership of religion, religious scholars are liable more than anyone else for all this chaos and misinformation we see, nobody amongst them is willing to take charge and say "hey look half of the information being fed as religion is false" Molvi sb. can have all my respect but he cannot own my life, sorry and it should be his duty on Friday to conduct Q & A sessions instead of him speaking of his choice to a gathering. This chaos is because we have stopped asking question and shooting down people who would ask questions. Islam was never a closed system, "Deen may koi sakhti nai" does not mean I can skip my prayers, it means let them come seeking information and don't make them run away by your conduct.

Seriously I have no idea about who Mubarik Ali is and who Ashraf Thanvi is, I have no interest in history, my interest is religion that I follow and that ends at the day Prophet Muhammad (Peace be him) departed from this world, anything beyond that point presented and being fed to me as religion, I will criticise it and ask questions about its authenticity and will trash it if its propaganda to malign Islam . For that matter if anyone calls me infidel, terrorist, moderate Islamist, secular, munafiq, murtid he can and I don't care.

 

[syedali73]

Zarvan I have no idea of your history on this forum, people label you TTP supporter and whatever (ALLAH knows better), my problem with you is your misdirected energy only. You are lot better Muslim, lot better human than me and you have lot more knowledge than me, just adopt some softness and don't shoot down questions of people by labeling them liars, advising them to read this and that first and than talk to me. My advice and two cents rest is your Mrazi.

You got it right; I can see you are becoming better an better in reading people (through their posts) and articulating your thoughts. Well, he does that exactly for the reason you mentioned, lack of in-depth knowledge. Where logic ends, violence (oral or physical) begins. Tragedy with Zarwan and many like him is, all their knowledge (more correctly information) is derived from half-baked stories that they get to hear from the people they rub their shoulders with, that is, neem mullah, chillah type tableeghis, and sectarian bigots. The day he left these mullah and began to read Islamic books and understanding them in their true spirit, he'll become a different person altogether, a person with composure, knowledge, and tolerance.

Regarding the difference between Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi and Dr. Mubarak Ali... you should know the difference and the stature of the two, why you should not? Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi is a renowned Indian Muslim scholar of Deobandi School of Thought who has penned down countless work, Behishti Zewar is only one of the scholarly work he did during his life time. Dr. Mubarak Ali on the other hand is what we call a 'rationalist', or in Urdu we call 'mustashriq' who try to understand and analyze religion or its problems through logic that not necessarily is correct due to the disconnection between the time of analysis and the time when the work was composed. Another example of 'rationalist' is Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, yes, the founding father of Ali Garh Muslim University. You'll be surprised to learn that Sir Syed did not believe in 'Jin' or 'majic' despite the fact that there is a clear mention of these things in Quran, and numerous Ahadith on these subjects can be found. However, based on his study and logic, he came to a conclusion that there is no such thing as Jin or other heavenly creature.

 

[I.R.A]

You got it right; I can see you are becoming better an better in reading people (through their posts) and articulating your thoughts. Well, he does that exactly for the reason you mentioned, lack of in-depth knowledge. Where logic ends, violence (oral or physical) begins. Tragedy with Zarwan and many like him is, all their knowledge (more correctly information) is derived from half-baked stories that they get to hear from the people they rub their shoulders with, that is, neem mullah, chilah type tableeghis, and sectarian bigots. The day he left these mullah and began to read Islamic books and understanding them in their true spirit, he'll become a different person altogether, a person with composure, knowledge, and tolerance.

Tableeghis, well most of my family is associated with Tableeghi jamat , I don't know why they are so "Badnam" but I don't find their prominent Council members / leaders / Buzurgs involved in advocating killing and attacking others. They have difference of opinion with many even with Ahl E Hadees but violence is not promoted or preached, they discourage having debates with others about sect, I have been in quite a lot of Tableeghi gatherings, in fact sometimes I think of them as Khasi Mullahs , they don't speak against any aggression, they have such a huge street power but they don't use it to influence politics, policies or whatever. The followers and people joining them are a different story, seen many with an attitude and action that is totally opposite to what they try preach others.

 

[I.R.A]

Regarding the difference between Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi and Dr. Mubarak Ali... you should know the difference and the stature of the two, why you should not? Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi is a renowned Indian Muslim scholar of Deobandi School of Thought who has penned down countless work, Behishti Zewar is only one of the scholarly work he did during his life time. Dr. Mubarak Ali on the other hand is what we call a 'rationalist', or in Urdu we call 'mustashriq' who try to understand and analyze religion or its problems through logic that not necessarily is correct due to the disconnection between the time of analysis and the time when the work was composed. Another example of 'rationalist' is Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, yes, the founding father of Ali Garh Muslim University. You'll be surprised to learn that Sir Syed did not believe in 'Jin' or 'majic' despite the fact that there is a clear mention of these things in Quran, and numerous Ahadith on these subjects can be found. However, based on his study and logic, he came to a conclusion that there is no such thing as Jin or other heavenly creature.

History does not interest me Syed Sb., its all man written, biased and may be under undue influence, plus it is confusing and I don't gain anything from it as a Muslim.

Molana Ashraf Ali Thanvi sahib may have contributed a lot but he still is a man, and he lived in time when may be the problems we face today as Muslims were bit different, Mr. Mubarik on other hand may have his own views and findings, but both of them were (or are) ordinary living human beings, breathing eating and prone to mistakes like any other.

For me religion is simple "Yes" "No" "To do" and "Not to do", I don't see myself interested in finding reasons or excuses for deviations from simple Ehkamat. I have no interest in findings if people existed before Adam or Eve, I don't want myself crossing the lines where I cannot handle the answers for my questions, for me Islam is all logic and I have this habit of analyzing all scientific research and findings in light of this logic.

When you read Quran with translation you may have experienced that at many occassions you automatically become aware of okay my wisdom ends here. Sir Syed Sahib may have had his reasons for denying existence of Jinnat but what if I have witnessed their existence personally without any apparent reason to deny what I was witnessing (And yes I have), then again the Satan/ lucifer / Iblees / Shaitan is a Jin after all, his sin was not any of crimes like adultery, taking bribe, or drinking or raping or murdering or child abuse or misconduct in duties, his shame is denying a Sajida when he was ordered by his CREATOR. Now just for the sake of comparison a person like me who denies Sajidaz on daily basis, who is into all the ills there can be gets into and then dare question the Word of ALLAH or HUDOOD of ALLAH or in some cases questions HIS existence altogether, is not it funny like "Kya piddi aur kya piddi ka shorba".

My approach in complex situation and question is leave it and be patient. Its like some information I can process the other is beyond my capability and need.