Social Acceptability of the Talib & the Talib Ideology !

[uahmed]

I hope these TTP apologists see that 12 year old boy lying on the ground with a 5kg bomb to his chest, and intoxicated, his face color going white and the boy clearly confused.

How can someone have a level of affection for sick minded people who kidnap 9 year olds, and convert them into suicide bombers at the age of 12.

How can you justify sending 12 year olds with 5 kg strapped to their body?

If you are a TTP apologist, justification is very easy. "This was all a drama by CIA / RAW / MOSSAD. No Muslim can do this. Once USA leaves the region, we will again start living in peace and harmony."

See how simple it was.

 

[Fracker]

Hey people !

My Dad visited Peshawar (Hayatabad) for a few days to attend a course/seminar ! He talked to a lot of people over there from all social strata (everyone from fellow Doctors to the cab driver) & he noted that almost overwhelmingly so people appeared to have a deep sense of dislike for the Army & empathy to borderline likeness for the Taliban.

I've seen that here in Lahore too but I wouldn't call it a unanimous disposition in my city (more like break-even...which is in itself very problematic) ! I'm sure the same can be seen in other parts of the country.

I can understand that amongst the Educated (or otherwise) Elite the tendency of supporting the Taliban or at the very least having a positive view about them would be slim to none.

I can also understand how amongst those most amenable to religion infused rhetoric of a select few clerics that tendency would exist.

But what I can't understand is the fondness of conspiracy theories (as in it wasn't the TTP but the ISI who're having these suicide bombings to milk more money from the US) amongst the population in general & a sense of empathy or at the very least a positive viw about the Taliban amongst those most effected by the Talibs namely the Pashtun belt !

So my question essentially is that 'Do you guys agree that there is significant socially acceptability of the Talib & his ideology amongst Pakistanis in general & the Pashtun belt in particular or that it is not as widespread as it appears to me ?'

Interestingly I didn't spend time just for some day or visited any place.. I have been roaming around the country from last 12 years, mardan, peshawar, Islamabad, Lahore, Faislabad, and last most diverse and saturated city Karachi.. I spend time with Modern class, and spend time with "So Called" Mullahism from all three major school of thoughts of Pakistan, Bralvi, Deobandi, and Shia.. And all of them are sure on one point. These blasts are done by foreign elements to divide muslims.. With slight difference in opinion... Pathans of Peshawar and Mardan since living very close to these elements are pretty much sure that Afghani Taliban, or Pre-911 Taliban were Good Talibans... their ideology has no issue and can be implemented in Pakistan for the search of SHariah Implementation.. With minimum changes. They are very clear in their mind to some extend that their was no Al-Qaida, also TTP is a group of segregated teams which works directly in directions of CIA/RAW etc..

then Lahore, faisalabad people are a bit confuse about the segration between taliban but they are v much sure that some elements have been sent in taliban.. But they are want this to end up now.. Taliban was a need till soviats attack now they are not required.. btw I am talking about gernel opinion not individuals... Also my opinion can differ from my gatherings...

Last not the least, Karachi, like a city too diverse.. People are soo busy in their life that they want peace, but don't want to do anything to finish things up (mostly Pakistanis are like this, but from Karachist it is required), There are people who think US/PA are creating TTP by killing Tribes men.. There are people who think there are internal lobbies who are using Pakistanis while misinforming them and use as a TTP terrorist.. But here as well, I found Huge junk of people who think this war has been imposed on Pakistan, by Dollars placement.

If you are a TTP apologist, justification is very easy. "This was all a drama by CIA / RAW / MOSSAD. No Muslim can do this. Once USA leaves the region, we will again start living in peace and harmony."

See how simple it was.

Muslims can do anything.. They can cut women hand for money in a disasterist situation, they can return millions or rupees back just for the sack of Eman.. They can kidnap kids, and cut their hands to make them beggers, or they can create orphan insititutes... they can throw their money for fahashi, weddings, and just to show of.. but can't help single poor according to their power..

There are different types of Muslims... which can go upto any limit.. but to decide on what side they are only two elements can decide..

1) Wealth
2) Iman

our enemies also uses same to fool us.. throw money to some muslims, so they can split other muslims on the basis of their Iman...

 

[Xeric]

Actually, the farther you go away from the cities, the lesser the levels of education and socioeconomic condition. So the real reason for the support you mention is more due to a lack of the tools necessary for awareness, and not the presumptuous and pompous rationalization that you wish to pass off as intellectualism.

So you want to imply that any Pakistani residing outside Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad etc is of a lesser brain and is poorly educated/aware and thus is an idiot?

Boy, you had just reinforced the idea i had mentioned in my post # 55.

 

[Contrarian]

I have a question for you Armstrong. And think about this carefully.

What is the difference between the people in the villages you mention who think and say that ISI is doing the bombings in their own country to get money from US and the majority of people of Pakistan who think that 9/11 was a CIA job, Mumbai massacre was done by R&AW - all done just to target Pakistan or Islam in different cases.


They both think what they want to believe despite all proof to the contrary. Its a national phenomenon in Pakistan, everything uncomfortable is a conspiracy against them. They are showing the same values/thought process that every Pakistani has - just different objects/targets this time.

 

[Farah Sohail]

Xeric Sir.. I would like to know your views on my post on the previous page..esp on the last point of TTP propaganda and how we couldnt counter their propaganda? I would like to know your views..tht why do u think we were v unable to counter the baseless rhetoric/propaganda of TTP?

 

[BATMAN]

What is the difference between the people in the villages you mention who think and say that ISI is doing the bombings in their own country to get money from US and the majority of people of Pakistan who think that 9/11 was a CIA job, Mumbai massacre was done by R&AW - all done just to target Pakistan or Islam in different cases.

People in villages of Pakistan are totally fed on crap of cable tv... this is why people like Gilani, Shah Mehmood Qureshi are considered holy.

Interior Sindh and Punjab is a complete disaster.

 

[Armstrong]

I have a question for you Armstrong. And think about this carefully.

What is the difference between the people in the villages you mention who think and say that ISI is doing the bombings in their own country to get money from US and the majority of people of Pakistan who think that 9/11 was a CIA job, Mumbai massacre was done by R&AW - all done just to target Pakistan or Islam in different cases.


They both think what they want to believe despite all proof to the contrary. Its a national phenomenon in Pakistan, everything uncomfortable is a conspiracy against them. They are showing the same values/thought process that every Pakistani has - just different objects/targets this time.

On the contrary this phenomenon is neither exhibited by the majority of Pakistanis nor is it localized to Pakistan alone; had I been sure of that I would not be asking this question - What do you think ? What has your experience been ?

At the same time you must also realize that neither our neighbor in the East nor the one in the West are neither angelic beings nor do we have a perfectly fine trilateral past between the three of us. Just as in India whether its the Assam Muslim problem or in Afghanistan its the Afghan Taliban, gets pinned to Pakistan's head, such misgivings exist within my country as well whereas a severe lack of mistrust between us & our respective track records breed things that may be labelled as conspiratorial.

 

[Armstrong]

So you want to imply that any Pakistani residing outside Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad etc is of a lesser brain and is poorly educated/aware and thus is an idiot?

Boy, you had just reinforced the idea i had mentioned in my post # 55.

Nahin yaaraa but lets be honest with ourselves....whole swathes of our population have a tendency of whipping up the most ludicrous of arguments to support their stance (whether its support for a political party, religion, cultural practice or a political stance). One cannot but attribute most of it due to a lack of exposure & illiteracy; unfortunately the more towards rural areas one goes....the more is the lack of exposure & illiteracy heightened.

They're not idiots for village wisdom is wisdom indeed but they're illiterate & without much exposure & that makes them, at times, gullible to believe things.

 

[Contrarian]

On the contrary this phenomenon is neither exhibited by the majority of Pakistanis nor is it localized to Pakistan alone; had I been sure of that I would not be asking this question - What do you think ? What has your experience been ?

At the same time you must also realize that neither our neighbor in the East nor the one in the West are neither angelic beings nor do we have a perfectly fine trilateral past between the three of us. Just as in India whether its the Assam Muslim problem or in Afghanistan its the Afghan Taliban, gets pinned to Pakistan's head, such misgivings exist within my country as well whereas a severe lack of mistrust between us & our respective track records breed things that may be labelled as conspiratorial.

Would you feel that Pakistan as a nation has a specially large appetite for conspiracy theories?
You find everything - from President Generals giving warning about wiping hindus off India to lack of rain in US caused by HAARP!

If you do, what causes what you attribute it to?

 

[VCheng]

So you want to imply that any Pakistani residing outside Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad etc is of a lesser brain and is poorly educated/aware and thus is an idiot?

Boy, you had just reinforced the idea i had mentioned in my post # 55.

I am correct in saying that the general level of education and awareness drops in the smaller town and then in the villages, like it or not. I am also correct is saying that those with a bare minimum of education are more easily molded by those wishing to do so, for example the Army, which offers the only realistically accessible socioeconomic opportunities to such folk.

Your insinuations of villagers having a "lesser brain" and anybody being an "idiot" are intentionally misleading and inflammatory.

I never said nor implied any such thing.

Please read my post again, with help as needed to aid comprehension:

Actually, the farther you go away from the cities, the lesser the levels of education and socioeconomic condition. So the real reason for the support you mention is more due to a lack of the tools necessary for awareness, and not the presumptuous and pompous rationalization that you wish to pass off as intellectualism.

I will let others decide who is making a fool of themselves, but I can tell you it is not me.

 

[Armstrong]

Would you feel that Pakistan as a nation has a specially large appetite for conspiracy theories?
You find everything - from President Generals giving warning about wiping hindus off India to lack of rain in US caused by HAARP!

If you do, what causes what you attribute it to?

I don't know I've yet to step outside of Pakistan so I can't really chart a comparative with anything & yet no...I don't think that we have a large appetite for conspiracy theories but they do exist & in enough numbers.

I suppose the same causes that are behind every consumption for these things the world over whether its a Southern State in the US, in India, Iran or in Pakistan.

 

[Xeric]

I am correct in saying that the general level of education and awareness drops in the smaller town and then in the villages, like it or not.

No it does not.

With even villagers having access to awareness tools like the internet and cable tv where our not-very-mature tv channels spew BS 24/7, even a taxi driver is more learned than a yank when it comes to politics and happenings, especially inside Pakistan.

A Pakistani rickshaw driver may not know the chustian and chalakian of an e-warrior like yourself, but he sure is aware of the guuds and bads in his country and those who have brought this country where it stands today by virtue of the Nawai-Waqat he reads on a truck hotel. And contrary to your understanding, local newspapers are more negative, immature and sensational when it comes to narrating news especially regarding sensitive issues like Army rule, budget etc. Hence, your implication again stands void.

Pakistanis (South Asians) in general discuss more politics and news than any other common man around the world.

Just because they probably wont read BS in WSJ and Newsweek, wouldnt automatically mean that they are unaware.

Moreover, just because the 'literates' have more access to holy sayings of pseudo-Pakistanis on social media, it doesn't imply that they are more 'aware'.

Not every Pakistani intellectual belongs to big cities of Pakistan. Rather those down to earth and original critics who actually 'think' before they open their beaks and pens comes from mediocre backgrounds.

I am also correct is saying that those with a bare minimum of education are more easily molded by those wishing to do so, for example the Army, which offers the only realistically accessible socioeconomic opportunities to such folk.

Again wrong.

If that so, then they are also more prone to be easily molded by those wishing to do so, for example propaganda campaigns by anti-state elements. But if they dont fall for it, i think its to their credit that they are able to separate grain from the friging chaff.

Your insinuations of villagers having a "lesser brain" and anybody being an "idiot" are intentionally misleading and inflammatory.

Nah..nah..

That's something you master, i am seedha saadha phauji

I never said nor implied any such thing.

Your over simplification and unwanted clarification bears witness to the hypocrisy you had spluttered unkowingly in your original post.

Please read my post again, with help as needed to aid comprehension:

Why? It was subtle enough to be understood at the first glance - you aint Shakespeare.

I will let others decide who is making a fool of themselves, but I can tell you it is not me.

Atlast, a jackpot

 

[VCheng]

.......... Atlast, a jackpot

 

[SQ8]

There is another reason to why the Pashtun rural area is more prone to an extremist ideology and it has to do with the religious thought drivers in that area. Even the most traveled of religious scholars from that area refuse to budge from age old customs and attempts to further their understanding of their religion. Whether this rigidity is due to cultural inheritance(general rigidity in attitude) or general fear of losing their followers in case they are proven wrong(which they are on many occasions and generally retort with "ham purane hain(we are followers of old)".
There is also a general attitude of "dont rock the boat" when it comes to the combination of cultural/religious practices within the community. And the current crop of scholars in KP are more bent towards the extremist ideology because they feel a greater connection with the Talibs than with the rest of the Pakistani Clergy community(although this ideology is now also spreading into the mainstream..if one has been to Raiwind Ijtemas recently they would be thankful that no western media outlet as reported on the blatant support for extremism and barbaric practices being preached there now).

Pasthuns are a very cultural people and it reflects in them..Islam is now a keystone in their culture but since its being tainted with the extremist ideology.. its become acceptable. Moreover, there is no other community in Pakistan that has suffered more under the war on terror than the Pasthuns.. simply no other.. they have shown extreme resilience in bearing it but there is a limit.
When the Americans are only trying to kill you, when your own Army is also seemingly trying to kill you(as propagated by the extremists from the pulpit at every mosque in KP which they rule).. you will eventually see the only savior in those that claim to fight for you.

The same Pashtuns, when in cities like Islamabad or Karachi.. exhibit different characteristics.. and have different opinions.
Its the environment of KP and the pressure of a culture that is been tainted by extremism...that is causing it.
After all.. Peshawar before Zia.. was one of the most hip places to be... almost every one from that generation testifies to it.
The Afghan war literally destroyed the Pashtun community...inside and out.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

اکثر ممرز لمبے چھوڑے جوابات نہیں پڑھتے اس لیے پہلے میں صرف پشتونوں میں انتہا پسندی اور انکی طالبان کے لیے نرم گوشے پر بات کرونگا۔
یہ بات کہنا سراسر غلط ھوگا کہ پشتون شروع ھی سے مزھبی جنونیت کا شکار تھا۔ پشتونوں کی طرز زندگی اورمعاشرے میں ایک بڑی تبدیلی کا اغاز اس وقت سے ھوگیا جب میں 1947 انکا مستقبل پاکستان سے وابستہ ھوگیا۔ چونکہ پشتون قوم برٹش انڈیا سے مسلسل بر سر پیکار تھے، ازاد فطرت کے لیے مشہورتھے، افغان نژاد ھونے کے ناتے افغانستان سے جڑاو تھے، اور 1947 تک پختون مسلم لیگ کی مخالف خدای خدمتگارکو ووٹ دیتے رھے اور یہ کہ پشتونوں کا قبایلی معاشرہ، انکی روایات اور اطوار، پشتونوالی، اورتاریخ ھندوستانی مسلمانوں سے الگ اور جداگانہ تھا اور ان کے ساتھ مشترک اسلام تھا، اس لیے ریاست پاکستان کے خار اور خدشات پختون قوم پر ضرور تھے، اور اعتماد میں میں اس وقت مزید کمی ایی جب افغانستان نے پشتونستان کا شوشہ چھوڑ دیا اور فقییراپی نے وزیرستان میں ازادی کی تحریک شروع کردی۔

قومی واحدت کے لیے اردوہ ارو اسلام کا سہارا لیا گیا۔ پاکستان کے قیام کے بعد موجودہ پختونخواہ میں دیوبند کی بےشمار مدرسے ھر جگہ بنے شروع ھوگیے، جماعت اسلامی اور جمعیت علمعاے اسلام، جنکا اگرچہ منبہ ھندوستان تھا، پختونخواہ میں اس قدر سرایت کر گیے کہ اس علاقے کواپنا گڑھ بنا دیا۔ دیوبند کے ساتھ ھی پختونوں کو مولانا الیاسی کی تبلیغی جماعت تحفے میں مل گی۔ اس سے پہلے پختون ایک خاص خد تک مزھب کی پیروی کرتے، پختونوالی کو زیادہ ترجیح دیتے۔ انیسویں صدیی میں جب سید احمد بریلوی نے پختونوالی اور جرگہ کو مٹانے کی کوشش کی تو اسکا اور اسکے ھندوستانی پیروکارو کا بہت برا حشر کیا۔
ادھر جب افغانستان میں داود نے پختونستان اور دیورنڈ لاین کا شور کچھ زیادہ ہی بلند کردیا توپاکستان نے اسکو بوھت سنجیدگی سے لیا۔ افغانستان میں جب کمونسٹ حکومت اگی تو اسکے خلاف پاکستان نے اسلام پسندون کوکھڑا کیا۔ اور جب افغان حکومت نے مدد کے لے روسی فوج کو طلب کیا تو امریکہ اور پاکستان نے وہ گندہ اور غلیظ گیم کھیلا کہ افغانستان اور پاکستان دونوں میں پشتون معاشرےکے ڈانچھے کا پورا بیڑا غرق کر دیا۔

افغان جنگ میں صرف اور صرف مزھبی گروپوں کو سپورٹ کیا گیا۔ پورے فاٹا کو ٹرینگ گراونڈ میں تبدیل کردیا گیا جہاں ایی ایس ایی مجاھدین کو تیار اور ٹریننگ دے کرافغانستان بیجھتی۔ خیبر پختونخواہ کے سارے اسلامی مدررسوں کو جہادی فیکٹریوں میں تبدیل کردیا گیا۔ سادہ لوح پختون کو اسلام کا ھیرو کہیہ کراسکا خوب استمال کیا گیا۔ اگر پاکستان کو جیہاد کرنا تھا تو اسے اپنی سرکاری فوج کو افغانستان بیھجنا چاھیے تھا۔ پختونوں کو مزھبی انتہا پسند بنا کر کہا گیا کہ اپنی مشہور زمانہ مہماننوازی کا مظاہرہ کرکے عرب اور ازبک مجھادین کو اپنے ھاں جگہ دو۔
افغان جنگ میں صرف اور صرف مزھبی گروپوں کو سپورٹ کیا گیا۔ پورے فاٹا کو ٹرینگ گراونڈ میں تبدیل کردیا گیا جہاں ایی ایس ایی مجاھدین کو تیار اور ٹریننگ دے کرافغانستان بیجھتی۔ خیبر پختونخواہ کے سارے اسلامی مدررسوں کو جہادی فیکٹریوں میں تبدیل کردیا گیا۔ سادہ لوح پختون کو اسلام کا ھیرو کہیہ کراسکا خوب استمال کیا گیا۔ اگر پاکستان کو جیہاد کرنا تھا تو اسے اپنی سرکاری فوج کو افغانستان بیھجنا چاھیے تھا۔ پختونوں کو مزھبی انتہا پسند بنا کر کہا گیا کہ اپنی مشہور زمانہ مہماننوازی کا مظاہرہ کرکے عرب اور ازبک مجھادین کو اپنے ھاں جگہ دو۔ جب کشمیر میں جہاد شروع کردیا تو جہادی تنظیموں کے سب سے زیادہ دفاتر خیبر پختونخواہ میں کھولے گیے۔
جب مشرف نے یو ٹرن لیا اور طالبان کے خلاف امریکہ کا ساتھ دے کر انکے ھم مزھب اور ھم نسل افغانوں سے دغا کیا گیا تو پاکستان کے پشتونوں میں غم و غصہ کی شدید لہر دوڑ گیی۔ اگر طالبان رمضان تک کابل میں ڈٹے رہتے تو شاید صوبہ سرحد حکومت کے خلاف بغاوت کر لیتا۔ پختونوں کی فوج کی خلاف نفرت کی کہانی یہی سے شروع ھوتی ھے۔
جب فوج نے قبایلی علاقوں امریکہ کے کہنے پر اپریشن شروع کردیے۔ تو اس سے ایسی کچھڑی پکی جس کی سمجھ اج تک کسی کو نہں ارھی۔ قبایلی پختون نے یہ دیکا کہ انہں انہی ازبک اور عرب مجھادین کو حوالے کرنے کے لیے کہا گیا جنہں بیس سال پہلے مہمان بنانے کیے لے کہا تھا۔ قبایلی عوام نے فوج کی یہ منافقت بھی دیکھی کہ محسود طالبان کے خلاف دوسرے طالبان گروپ جیسے ملا نظیر اور ترکستان بیٹھانی گروپس کا استمال کیا گیا۔ افریدیوں نے فوج کا یہ گندہ روپ بھی دیکھ لیا کہ ان پر فوج کے حمایتی منگل باغ کے طالبان کو مسلط کردیا گیا ھے۔ ایی ایس ایی پختون علاقوں سے طالبان کو افغانستان بیھج رھی ھے۔ فوج کے اس دوغلے کردار میں پختون معاشرے سے انتہا پسندی، جس کو خود فوج نے پروان چڑھایا، کیسے کم ھوگی ؟
ٓ جہاں تک یی ایس ایی کے با ت ھے اس کے گندے اور مجرمانہ کردار پر اس فورم پر بات نہیں کر سکتا۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔