Sino-Pakistan Frontier Agreement - 1963

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Neo,

I have posted it on thread in this very forum.

Too tiresome to hunt for it again and again.

It states that Pakistan will withdraw its troops from Kashmir and India will do so too with adequate forces left for its security or words to that effect.

 

[UnitedPak]

Neo,

I have posted it on thread in this very forum.

Too tiresome to hunt for it again and again.

It states that Pakistan will withdraw its troops from Kashmir and India will do so too with adequate forces left for its security or words to that effect.

So you are basically saying that unless we get a time machine and change those events, this conflict will never be solved, and you are completely ok with that too?

The goal is to hold that plebiscite one way or another. Its really not rocket science.

 

[roadrunner]

Neo,

I have posted it on thread in this very forum.

Too tiresome to hunt for it again and again.

It states that Pakistan will withdraw its troops from Kashmir and India will do so too with adequate forces left for its security or words to that effect.

This has been explained to you lots of times on many different forums. You keep ignoring it, so I can only conclude you are here to spread misinformation. Here is the resolution (resolution 98)

"4. Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of demilitarization, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side of the cease-fire line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;"
http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm

However, India did not reduce its troop number down to 18,000. It claimed it needed 24,000 troops. Pakistan had already agreed to reduce its troop numbers to 3,000-6,000. This is what halted the process. You claim that Pakistan halted the process which is just a lie. And you cannot post the reason why here, because it will be torn to shreds without the assistance of pro-India moderators to ban those who will point out the fallacies of your Kashmir story.

Remember, UNCIP chief blamed India for the halt of the plebiscite process in Kashmir. That's who should know whose fault it was.

"The London Economist stated that "the whole world can see that India, which claims the support of this majority [the Kashmiri people]...has been obstructing a holding of an internationally supervised plebis-cite."32 Sir Owen Dixon, the United Nations Representative to the UNCIP, reported to the Security Council that,

In the end, I became convinced that India’s agreement would never be obtained to demilitarization in any such form, or to provisions governing the period of the plebiscite of any such character, as would in my opinion permit the plebiscite being conducted in conditions sufficiently guarding against intimidation, and other forms of abuse by which the freedom and fairness of the plebiscite might be imperiled.33

In this regard, India’s apparent efforts to obstruct the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir stand in violation of international law."
SJIR: The Fate of Kashmir : International Law or Lawlessness?

 

[roadrunner]

What a lame justification.

At that rate, you would even say that Paksitan would abdicate its right to Pakistan, just to crank in the weirdest of justification.

Next, you would even justify Bahadur Khan's demand of Pakhtoonistan, just to give any old justification you have trotted out to for Pakistan gifting a part of Kashmir to China!

Legally, all of NWFP, FATA, etc form part of Pakistan. Kashmir is not owned by Pakistan, China or India legally as yet (international legality).

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Legally, all of NWFP, FATA, etc form part of Pakistan. Kashmir is not owned by Pakistan, China or India legally as yet (international legality).

Therefore, it cannot be sold or leased.

A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:

1. To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;

http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm

 

[cactuslily58]

The plebiscite is the only realistic solution left.
It simply make so much more sense to ask the Kashmiris what they want to do. Its their land, full stop.
Not to mention this is what the UN suggested, this is what the Kashmiris want, this is what Nehru suggested, this is what Jinnah agreed to, and this is the proposal Pakistan is putting forward to end this conflict once and for all.

What exactly is stopping India from giving an example of the shiny democracy it brags about so often?

How do you conduct a plebisite in a state that was ruled by Hari Singh whose characterstics now are as follows :

1.Divided between India, China & Pakistan .
2.Part "leased" by Pakistan to China.
3.The demography has changed in Pakistan & Chinese held portions.

Will India, China & Pakistan ever withdraw from the portions they now control / own to allow a plebisite to be conducted ?


The answer is No. Why are we endlessly flogging a dead horse ?

Lastly, there is nothing to brag about a democracy..its just a way of life which some day the rest of South Asia will also follow.

 

[roadrunner]

Therefore, it cannot be sold or leased.

Therefore it cannot be sold, as it is not Pakistan's to sell. Lease is just an approximation. What has happened is Pakistan is providing security to a particular area. If Pakistan does not wish to provide security anymore then it can pull out anytime and let the Chinese take over. But the land does not belong to China or Pakistan (or India), until a plebiscite has been carried out in accordance with the Partition framework and the UN resolutions.

A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:

1. To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;

http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm

The GoP only needs to "use its best endeavours". Prove to us that the GoP did not use its best endeavours to secure the withdrawal of the tribesmen.It does not say that all the Pakistani troops need to have vacated from J & K. In fact the Pakistani troops only needed to have started withdrawing from there, before India needed to do something (which it never did).

*RESOLUTION ADOPTED BY THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR INDIA AND PAKISTAN ON 13 AUGUST 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/1100
2. (1) When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission"
http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm

The text quoted above shows that only the tribesmen need to have withdrawn, not the Pakistani troops. Did the tribesmen withdraw? Answer is yes, they did, because the commission notified the GoI to withdraw its forces (down till 18,000 men on its side).

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

And are the troops not Pakistani nationals?

 

[roadrunner]

And are the troops not Pakistani nationals?

No. It's pretty clear they're not. The resolution recognises 3 categories of Pakistanis in J & K, tribesmen, Pakistani nationals, and Pakistan forces. Here they are highlighted in bold from the resolution.

(1) When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission
http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Ah well, we are going round and round like Tony Lumpkin!

 

[roadrunner]

Ah well, we are going round and round like Tony Lumpkin!

So you can see the error in your previous statements? That's fine then..

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

So you can see the error in your previous statements? That's fine then..

Really?

That indicates how logical you are and how you draw fallacious conclusions!

 

[ssethii]

Which territory, Pakistan got in return?