Silent Buildup

[Signalian]

Hmmmm, so what about the non-conventional ones??

Likes of TTP/BLA/BRA/PTM etc. India won 1971 war through MB. Pakistan has crushed the insurgency by TTP and BLA etc to a great extent. India needs an insurgent force inside Pakistan to keep the Pakistani military occupied with them as Indian Military enters Pakistan to "save" Baluchis (BLA) and Pashtoons (PTM) from "wipe out" by Pakistani Forces, a repeat of 1971. Previously, it was the Muhajirs (a major part of MQM) in Sindh.

Nuclear weapons come way later; the whole world can see who used them, but use of proxies can be hidden for years/decades.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Likes of TTP/BLA/BRA/PTM etc. India won 1971 war through MB. Pakistan has crushed the insurgency by TTP and BLA etc to a great extent. India needs an insurgent force inside Pakistan to keep the Pakistani military occupied with them as Indian Military enters Pakistan to "save" Baluchis (BLA) and Pashtoons (PTM) from "wipe out" by Pakistani Forces, a repeat of 1971. Previously, it was the Muhajirs (a major part of MQM) in Sindh.

Nuclear weapons come way later; the whole world can see who used them, but use of proxies can be hidden for years/decades.

And, they need a Mujib to begin with!! Now, a Mujib or a Sherif Hussein is born once in a century to take out the largest Muslim State of the time....

 

[SABRE]

What are the most powerful offensive conventional capabilities Pakistan has against India at the moment? “Airforce and the Short-Range Strategic weapons” (Non-WMD). Do India’s AD and ABM/AMS systems have the capability to handle full-spectrum of air attacks? NO! IA/IAF is incapable to deter PAF in the case of LIC or even HIC at this point. The only credible deterrence India has against Pakistan is a Naval front. On 27 Feb, PAF conducted a successful offensive raid, targetted IA military installations and shot-down IAF fighters evidently maintained its superiority and hegemony over the IAF including IA in a real combat theatre. That episode left an unbearable mark over the Indian military establishment. India factually lost its deterrence against the 1/4 advisory according to many global experts including India (i.e: Pravin Sohney, Gen Bakshi and many). Now, what Mr Bipin and Co are thinking?

Any miscalculated adventure will lead the entire Indian defense spectrum into the dark hole where Pakistan Airforce, Special Combat Units including SSW+SSG, Anti armor Gunship formation will literally fucked-up IA/IAF in case of conflict. How and why? isn't India have potential or a similar competence or better? that's not the question in case of conflict at the moment, Pakistan military has no chance to survive in the case of a 5-dimensional full spectrum battlespace attack. The war in btw both has no degradation curves. So what option Pak military has or how they can respond or make-sure its survival? obviously maximum damage with coordination, correlation of the entire force in the first attack. The fact is the second strike from India might not leave Pakistan military to strike back strongly as first, that could be the point of vectoring war dynamics towards non-conventional. So intensity and intention are clear from Pakistani military now the question, is that the opposition is capable to handle?

In the last confrontation, PA/PAF/PN was ready for the HIC back in Feb, India was surprised and stay low the reason they weren’t expected nor ready. The gape is beyond IA/IAF imagination (admitted by many) especially in today’s modern warfare - endorsed by the majority of global mil experts at this time. The game of the quantity is over.

The non-conventional weapons (WMD) or Nuclear weapons are completely a different ball game. India or Pakistan, both doesn’t have any capability against the nuclear fall-out. Nor anyone has the capability to neutralized before launch, IMO, that's more like a ubiquitous system that can work independently anytime and from anywhere.

People of both sides might not aware of what is happening. Pakistan and India both tested its nuclear strategic force, battle awareness, joint military offensive capabilities, low-high operational capabilities in offensive paradigm, air and ground with special force coordinations.... very silently ... without making a noise.

First, when you say strategic weapon(s) in a nuclearized environment it invariably means 'nuclear weapons.' This can further be broken into three groups; i.e. Strategic Nuclear Weapons for Counter Value Targeting, Operational Nuclear Weapons for Counter Force (Hard) Targeting and Tactical Nuclear Weapons (TNW) for Counter Force (Soft) Targeting. [Counter Value Target = Cities, Towns, Industrial Zones, etc. | Hard Targets = Military installations, bunkers, barracks, etc., | Soft Targets = forces on the battlefield]. All other weapons, regardless of their impact, are referred to as conventional - unless, the states in question also possess chemical, biological, and radiological (CBR) weapons as well.

On 27th Feb PAF achieved air superiority but not hegemony. Hegemony would take place if PAF wipes out IAF's warfighting capability entirely. The air superiority PAF achieved is also limited to the sample of that one-off limited conflict event in a small theatre. We don't know what the situation would be if a major war breaks out. It is always unpredictable. IAF certainly has quantitative and qualitative capabilities to establish dominance in the air; and with Rafale, it only gets better for them. A line up of Rafale, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 with their mix of European/French and Russian weapon systems is a formidable force. PAF certainly plans and trains for neutralizing quantitative superiority of IAF but it needs more qualitative and quantitative elements to ensure continued success. JF-17s provides adequate quality in large quantities but to bet the future merely on F-16s and JF-17s against the Top-4 of the IAF may not always yield the same result. PAF needs a thoroughbred 4.5 gen aircraft. Unless we are able to acquire something like Eurofighter or Block-70 we are looking at a big gap in PAF's force. It will take quite a time for Azam to reach maturity and qualify as 5th Gen aircraft. After all, it has taken this long for JF-17 to reach closer to its goal of 4th gen capability.

I sort of get the gist of what you are trying to say in the 2nd last paragraph but your wordings sort of distort the overall sense of it. Can you kindly elaborate on how exactly nuclear weapons are a "ubiquitous system" and how they "can work independently anytime and from anywhere"?

 

[Caprxl]

First, a thumbs up to you for the detailed reply, cleared my queries regarding your post.

As for setting up Goals, I think @Signalian can explain far better than i could . But let me try a little bit for the sake of it .

If I am not wrong, in some thread @Signalian probably did wrote a detailed note on PA goals and what hurdles we might face in advancing in J&K.

I don't want Pakistan to again win on Ground but lose on table ( Ref to Kargil ) . Let them be the aggressors, so we can first Stop their Push, concentrate our attack on their weak position, Strike hard and push as deep as Sri nagar , Only that along with Kashmiri's reeving PA as liberators and supporting them can bring J&K to Pakistan or at least force India to come to negotiating table

Couldn't agree more, some members or commons Pakistanis do have their doubts on Government and Forces by not taking the initiative but in my humble opinion without these (bold part) we will gain nothing except giving the world an expensive fire show and testing / wasting resources only to take years & billions of $ to make em again not to mention the human loss alone.

 

[Rank]

First, when you say strategic weapon(s) in a nuclearized environment it invariably means 'nuclear weapons.' This can further be broken into three groups; i.e. Strategic Nuclear Weapons for Counter Value Targeting, Operational Nuclear Weapons for Counter Force (Hard) Targeting and Tactical Nuclear Weapons (TNW) for Counter Force (Soft) Targeting. [Counter Value Target = Cities, Towns, Industrial Zones, etc. | Hard Targets = Military installations, bunkers, barracks, etc., | Soft Targets = forces on the battlefield]. All other weapons, regardless of their impact, are referred to as conventional - unless, the states in question also possess chemical, biological, and radiological (CBR) weapons as well.

On 27th Feb PAF achieved air superiority but not hegemony. Hegemony would take place if PAF wipes out IAF's warfighting capability entirely. The air superiority PAF achieved is also limited to the sample of that one-off limited conflict event in a small theatre. We don't know what the situation would be if a major war breaks out. It is always unpredictable. IAF certainly has quantitative and qualitative capabilities to establish dominance in the air; and with Rafale, it only gets better for them. A line up of Rafale, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 with their mix of European/French and Russian weapon systems is a formidable force. PAF certainly plans and trains for neutralizing quantitative superiority of IAF but it needs more qualitative and quantitative elements to ensure continued success. JF-17s provides adequate quality in large quantities but to bet the future merely on F-16s and JF-17s against the Top-4 of IAF may not always yield the same result. PAF needs a thoroughbred 4.5 gen aircraft. Unless we are able to acquire something like Eurofighter or Block-70 we are looking at a big gap in PAF's force. It will take quite a time for Azam to reach maturity and qualify as 5th Gen aircraft. After all, it has taken this long for JF-17 to reach closer to its goal of 4th gen capability.

I sort of get the gist of what you are trying to say in the 2nd last paragraph but your wordings sort of distort the overall sense of it. Can you kindly elaborate on how exactly nuclear weapons are a "ubiquitous system" and how they "can work independently anytime and from anywhere"?

So you’re saying that India put all of its force against Pakistan?

 

[SABRE]

So you’re saying that India put all of its force against Pakistan?

Nowhere have I said that, nor insinuated.

 

[YeBeWarned]

First, a thumbs up to you for the detailed reply, cleared my queries regarding your post.



If I am not wrong, in some thread @Signalian probably did wrote a detailed note on PA goals and what hurdles we might face in advancing in J&K.



Couldn't agree more, some members or commons Pakistanis do have their doubts on Government and Forces by not taking the initiative but in my humble opinion without these (bold part) we will gain nothing except giving the world an expensive fire show and testing / wasting resources only to take years & billions of $ to make em again not to mention the human loss alone.

Yes , he did and it was a great hypothetical scenario he depict .

Have you wondered we only able to gain territory in 47 War, Some might use this to reinforce their argument that we should be on offensive, but thing is People from Kashmir , Tribal's were there to fight with us, now unless we know for sure that J&K people join our forces we can not initiate a offensive , specially when we have Troop ratio of around 1:3 . In War What i read that if you are the Attacker, you will need more troops and Tanks compared to the once defending .

 

[Caprxl]

Yes , he did and it was a great hypothetical scenario he depict .

Have you wondered we only able to gain territory in 47 War, Some might use this to reinforce their argument that we should be on offensive, but thing is People from Kashmir , Tribal's were there to fight with us, now unless we know for sure that J&K people join our forces we can not initiate a offensive , specially when we have Troop ratio of around 1:3 . In War What i read that if you are the Attacker, you will need more troops and Tanks compared to the once defending .

Yes, or unless we have overwhelming quantitative and qualitative edge against the Indian forces or atleast on par with them, I think OFFENSIVE DEFENCE is the way forward for us. Let them start and let us decide (where n when ) to end it or atleast on the terms favourable to us.

Don't know the exact numbers but yes it's something like you have mentioned. Some senior or expert can correct if it's wrong, it's one of the basics of military strategies syllabus I think.

 

[Rank]

Yes , he did and it was a great hypothetical scenario he depict .

Have you wondered we only able to gain territory in 47 War, Some might use this to reinforce their argument that we should be on offensive, but thing is People from Kashmir , Tribal's were there to fight with us, now unless we know for sure that J&K people join our forces we can not initiate a offensive , specially when we have Troop ratio of around 1:3 . In War What i read that if you are the Attacker, you will need more troops and Tanks compared to the once defending .

So far what we have achieved in real since Aug then? Without open any offensive...

 

[khansaheeb]

Honestly we'd be fools if we are caught unguarded now, everyone knows India is up for something , They literally issue direct threats to Attack Pakistan to take AJK .. I hope we are well prepared and ready for a 7-10 days long conflict/war .

Perhaps longer.

 

[Rank]

First, when you say strategic weapon(s) in a nuclearized environment it invariably means 'nuclear weapons.' This can further be broken into three groups; i.e. Strategic Nuclear Weapons for Counter Value Targeting, Operational Nuclear Weapons for Counter Force (Hard) Targeting and Tactical Nuclear Weapons (TNW) for Counter Force (Soft) Targeting. [Counter Value Target = Cities, Towns, Industrial Zones, etc. | Hard Targets = Military installations, bunkers, barracks, etc., | Soft Targets = forces on the battlefield]. All other weapons, regardless of their impact, are referred to as conventional - unless, the states in question also possess chemical, biological, and radiological (CBR) weapons as well.

On 27th Feb PAF achieved air superiority but not hegemony. Hegemony would take place if PAF wipes out IAF's warfighting capability entirely. The air superiority PAF achieved is also limited to the sample of that one-off limited conflict event in a small theatre. We don't know what the situation would be if a major war breaks out. It is always unpredictable. IAF certainly has quantitative and qualitative capabilities to establish dominance in the air; and with Rafale, it only gets better for them. A line up of Rafale, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 with their mix of European/French and Russian weapon systems is a formidable force. PAF certainly plans and trains for neutralizing quantitative superiority of IAF but it needs more qualitative and quantitative elements to ensure continued success. JF-17s provides adequate quality in large quantities but to bet the future merely on F-16s and JF-17s against the Top-4 of IAF may not always yield the same result. PAF needs a thoroughbred 4.5 gen aircraft. Unless we are able to acquire something like Eurofighter or Block-70 we are looking at a big gap in PAF's force. It will take quite a time for Azam to reach maturity and qualify as 5th Gen aircraft. After all, it has taken this long for JF-17 to reach closer to its goal of 4th gen capability.

I sort of get the gist of what you are trying to say in the 2nd last paragraph but your wordings sort of distort the overall sense of it. Can you kindly elaborate on how exactly nuclear weapons are a "ubiquitous system" and how they "can work independently anytime and from anywhere"?

It does.. India has a nuclear tria... how you can target or neutralized entire India strategic capability? Similarly Pakistan’s SF is mostly based on TEL mobility, you can fire from anywhere not a stand alone single launch pad... my ref in this perspective... the system is spread all over...

 

[MastanKhan]

thats what i am saying the equation of the results remain same. However, the situation is now bit different because of jingoist mind set sitting directly into the Govt + in the military.

Hi,

What concerns me the most is R Gen Bakshi's statement---" pkaistan military has taught us to fight "---and that is so true.

Pak military could not finish what it started---. Tactically in 1971---west pakistan india border was at the mercy of west pak military---in this region pak military would have decimated the indian military---but there was a sell off somewhere---.

Either it was Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto or it was Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto---.

The assessment was---pak army will defeat indian army and take large portions of land in the west---but the NAY SAYERS stated what would happen when the rest of the indian army came back from east pakistan----.

These generals of ZAB sabotaged the attack---what would have happened was that looking at the crushing defeat in the west---the indian army would have been in a total panic---that spearhead strike at Longewala was so critical---.

We were sold out---.

As for now---there is concern of war---but IK has woken up that certain factor in idnia that which the indians were not expecting---the Sikhs---.

The sikhs have found out that their roots and the hindu roots are not the same---they have found that they belong more to pakistan than to hindustan---.

The respect honor and the dignity that the sikh has been treated in pakistan---the sikhs have never been treated like that in india---and that has been the shocking truth that has come out of the " Kartarpur Corridor "---.

The electronic word of mouth has spread far and wide and by next year october---the sikhs would be seriously thinking of getting their homeland---.

BJP knows that---and is in a desperate position---. If the sikh state arise---then IOK goes out of control and then other states out of control---.

Many of us don't realize but India is in a dismal condition right now---.

There is deep panic in the high ranks of indian govt---the question " what if " has them shi-tting bricks---feb 26th and the 370 will backfire hard on them---.

Referundum 2020 has gotten them twisted hard---.

I would say again---Kartarpur decision would be written in golden words in the anals of history---one the most successful coupe d'etat by pakistan IK Gen Bajwa Sidhu---.

War is going to be a desperate last ditch attempt by hindustan to save its nationhood---.

So---basically and extremely critical time for pakistan as well---because india has never been in this desperate position before---. IOK ready to blow up---Sikh referendum 2020---sikh community just found pakistan to be like their home and pakistanis their family---the punjabi language will create this miracle---.

Pakistan will have to have the ability to withstand a 14-21 day conventional war with india---. If it can---then it might break the indian military back in 7-10 days if the sikhs uprise---

 

[Rank]

I guess everyone is missing the point in my first post. I can understand the war with India in a long run aren’t favorable for Pakistan. My point was Pakistan might use its max capability and force to damage India’s military infra as much as they can whether the offensive or defensive mode. Does India has the capability to stop full-blow adversary attack? I guess NO!

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

What concerns me the most is R Gen Bakshi's statement---" pkaistan military has taught us to fight "---and that is so true.

Pak military could not finish what it started---. Tactically in 1971---west pakistan india border was at the mercy of west pak military---in this region pak military would have decimated the indian military---but there was a sell off somewhere---.

Either it was Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto or it was Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto---.

The assessment was---pak army will defeat indian army and take large portions of land in the west---but the NAY SAYERS stated what would happen when the rest of the indian army came back from east pakistan----.

These generals of ZAB sabotaged the attack---what would have happened was that looking at the crushing defeat in the west---the indian army would have been in a total panic---that spearhead strike at Longewala was so critical---.

We were sold out---.

As for now---there is concern of war---but IK has woken up that certain factor in idnia that which the indians were not expecting---the Sikhs---.

The sikhs have found out that their roots and the hindu roots are not the same---they have found that they belong more to pakistan than to hindustan---.

The respect honor and the dignity that the sikh has been treated in pakistan---the sikhs have never been treated like that in india---and that has been the shocking truth that has come out of the " Kartarpur Corridor "---.

The electronic word of mouth has spread far and wide and by next year october---the sikhs would be seriously thinking of getting their homeland---.

BJP knows that---and is in a desperate position---. If the sikh state arise---then IOK goes out of control and then other states out of control---.

Many of us don't realize but India is in a dismal condition right now---.

There is deep panic in the high ranks of indian govt---the question " what if " has them shi-tting bricks---feb 26th and the 370 will backfire hard on them---.

Referundum 2020 has gotten them twisted hard---.

I would say again---Kartarpur decision would be written in golden words in the anals of history---one the most successful coupe d'etat by pakistan IK Gen Bajwa Sidhu---.

War is going to be a desperate last ditch attempt by hindustan to save its nationhood---.

So---basically and extremely critical time for pakistan as well---because india has never been in this desperate position before---. IOK ready to blow up---Sikh referendum 2020---sikh community just found pakistan to be like their home and pakistanis their family---the punjabi language will create this miracle---.

Pakistan will have to have the ability to withstand a 14-21 day conventional war with india---. If it can---then it might break the indian military back in 7-10 days if the sikhs uprise---

A damn good point!!! Different nationalities in Hindustan asking for: what’s in it for me?!? What’s the size of my pie?!? The way the East Pak folks thought and then acted!!! The South Indians are slowly getting into this mode when Ambanis etc. are grabbing the lion’s share....

 

[Signalian]

Does India has the capability to stop full-blow adversary attack? I guess NO!

Where will PA launch an attack inside India? same for PAF and PN ?