Siachen Glacier, Fighting On The Roof Of The World

[Kasrkin]

Any military man will explain the advantages of gaining heights in the mountains.

Even a 7 year old will tell you it is preferable to gain a vantage point over the enemy but I'm afraid things are always a little more complicated. For example achieving a "vantage" point to what end? To gain and retain the capability to advance on the enemy? Not there. Ability to inflict as much if not more casualties on the enemy? No happening. Forcing the enemy into a more resource consuming or otherwise dangerous disposition? Not really. Is achieving high ground really worth it if your forces will be condemned to bear a permanent and absolutely game changing disadvantage?

I refuse to believe that officers of the Indian Army are content to think like "yaay most of our posts are on higher ground and than most of the Pakistani posts! This means we are winning the war!"

When you use words like ' retarded" all you communicate is your own sense of retardation, it does not show you as a stronger man as you might wish to show.

Hahaha, happily indulging in the same bitter demeanor you accuse me of displaying. Unlike you, I don’t feel compelled to attack the person, merely his argument. So yes your understanding of the ground situation (despite having been there, apparently) is pretty retarded.

The net is not he place to dicuss / explain them & most defintely not his forum.

Yes, ofcourse. Simple geostrategic ground realities are always subject to such strict confidentiality, aren’t they? I mean there is no way I as a Pakistani can even begin to see or guess any potential Indian objectives in the narrow desolate and isolated strip of ice. Please don’t strain yourself fellow forum member, I wouldn’t want you to compromise the heavily guarded state secret about what, no doubt brilliant, object your Army has been trying to achieve through Siachen even after decades of fighting which we Pakistanis still haven’t been able to figure out.

Here you go. Malay wasn't 100% right, but he got the gist of it.

I’m afraid Malay was 100% wrong, fatalities have nowhere near stopped. Furthermore the article makes clear, most of the reduction is due to the lack of hostilities which obviously complicated rescue, recovery and resupply operations. Also given the fact that Indian soldiers in Siachen are not exactly unknown for tweaking the truth a bit from time to time, I think I will stick to my position, if you don’t mind.

 

[Contrarian]

I’m afraid Malay was 100% wrong, fatalities have nowhere near stopped. Furthermore the article makes clear, most of the reduction is due to the lack of hostilities which obviously complicated rescue, recovery and resupply operations. Also given the fact that Indian soldiers in Siachen are not exactly unknown for tweaking the truth a bit from time to time, I think I will stick to my position, if you don’t mind.

I read a report which said IA had a year of zero fatalities in Siachen. I'l try and dig it out. Either ways, the news peice quoted states that the casualties have been greatly reduced.

Stick to whatever you want mate, its not the ceasefire which has changed much, its the equipment available to them courtesy DRDO. And things would definitely improve much more as soon as the pilots there get new choppers and the ground facilities get built. India is building its border infrastructure everywhere, at a fast pace.

 

[DarkStar]

Having spent time there I am acutely aware of the significance of that piece of real estate. The net is not he place to dicuss / explain them & most defintely not his forum.

Any military man will explain the advantages of gaining heights in the mountains.

ooh...its all a closely guarded military secret, this strategic advantage. let's not talk about this on the net because they'll find out. You see, the PAK military has no idea about this strategic significance of the INdian positions and they'll find out if third eye talks.

laughable.

 

[Vinod2070]

If it is not strategically important, why are we discussing this? Why is it such a major issue?

It has many strategic advantages for India especially the Saltoro ridge. Else IA won't commit the resources it is doing in protecting it.

They do know more than most enthusiasts here.

 

[third eye]

ooh...its all a closely guarded military secret, this strategic advantage. let's not talk about this on the net because they'll find out. You see, the PAK military has no idea about this strategic significance of the INdian positions and they'll find out if third eye talks.

laughable.

Watta Yahoo..

 

[Kasrkin]

If it is not strategically important, why are we discussing this? Why is it such a major issue?

It has many strategic advantages for India especially the Saltoro ridge. Else IA won't commit the resources it is doing in protecting it.

They do know more than most enthusiasts here.

By that logic, no one can discuss any military endeavor in the world because someone who doesn't like where the logic is going will claim "because they know more".

Besides, darkstar and myself can hardly be termed enthusiasts as far as India's military blunders are concerned. Think of us more like un-Indian affiliated observers realistically commenting on the aspects of India's "outpost of glory"

Now an eye opener for the real enthusiasts here, a piece from a true professional military observer; Brian Cloughley is a British/Australian officer by profession and served as deputy head of the UN mission in Kashmir.

"The reason the description of the Line stopped at grid reference NJ 980420 was that nobody in their right mind (or words to that effect) could possibly want any of the land between there and the Great Wall of China..."

"Nobody, at that time, imagined that there might be military confrontation in the area. It would be futile to attempt to wage war at such heights, at the end of long lines communication, with no strategic or even tactical aim, in an area in which mere existence (and no-one lived there) would involve great hazard in moving tiny distances. Who would send troops to occupy a terrifying wasteland where there was no threat of invasion or even territorial infringement?
Mrs Gandhi.”

-A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections. Wonderful book, I suggest you read it. And before you get any ideas do read this too:
‘The book has the special advantage of being written by an observant military author who is both candid and objective’-Lt. Gen V.R. Raghavan, former Indian Director General of Military Operations.
So yes, qualified Indian officers do know the realities of the situation. But that doesn’t mean they have the priority or ability to act.

Now it’s all good to be enthusiastic and have loyalties, but blinding and deluding yourself to true realities or allowing unqualified others to blind you through romanticism and pride…now that sort of thing will result in all enthusiasm and no realism which would make forums like this quite useless, wouldn’t you say?

 

[third eye]

By that logic, no one can discuss any military endeavor in the world because someone who doesn't like where the logic is going will claim "because they know more".

Besides, darkstar and myself can hardly be termed enthusiasts as far as India's military blunders are concerned. Think of us more like un-Indian affiliated observers realistically commenting on the aspects of India's "outpost of glory"

Now an eye opener for the real enthusiasts here, a piece from a true professional military observer; Brian Cloughley is a British/Australian officer by profession and served as deputy head of the UN mission in Kashmir.

"The reason the description of the Line stopped at grid reference NJ 980420 was that nobody in their right mind (or words to that effect) could possibly want any of the land between there and the Great Wall of China..."

"Nobody, at that time, imagined that there might be military confrontation in the area. It would be futile to attempt to wage war at such heights, at the end of long lines communication, with no strategic or even tactical aim, in an area in which mere existence (and no-one lived there) would involve great hazard in moving tiny distances. Who would send troops to occupy a terrifying wasteland where there was no threat of invasion or even territorial infringement?
Mrs Gandhi.”

-A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections. Wonderful book, I suggest you read it. And before you get any ideas do read this too:
‘The book has the special advantage of being written by an observant military author who is both candid and objective’-Lt. Gen V.R. Raghavan, former Indian Director General of Military Operations.
So yes, qualified Indian officers do know the realities of the situation. But that doesn’t mean they have the priority or ability to act.

Now it’s all good to be enthusiastic and have loyalties, but blinding and deluding yourself to true realities or allowing unqualified others to blind you through romanticism and pride…now that sort of thing will result in all enthusiasm and no realism which would make forums like this quite useless, wouldn’t you say?

That just the point I was making, Indo - Pak issues are dealt with by both beligerents from the heart most times not from the head. No one in the " right minds" would prolong a conflict for so long, no one would be blind to the realities on the ground and expect a change in the ground position line after trying futilely for over 60 yrs.

We all must grant others the same level of intellect we claim for ourselves.

Seen from an outsider's perspective it obviously wouldn't make sense. If Pak finds it futile it could simply veirfy where the troops are and withdraw. So would the indians.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Stick to whatever you want mate, its not the ceasefire which has changed much, its the equipment available to them courtesy DRDO.

Not necessarily contesting your assertion that casualties are down, but how is this DRDO?

"The main reason, officers say, is the good quality of clothing and special equipment procured in recent years to equip men on the glacier. Most of the clothing - special down feather jackets, gloves, sleeping bags – has improved over the past two years and is being imported from Italy, France and Austria."

 

[daredevil]

Not necessarily contesting your assertion that casualties are down, but how is this DRDO?

"The main reason, officers say, is the good quality of clothing and special equipment procured in recent years to equip men on the glacier. Most of the clothing - special down feather jackets, gloves, sleeping bags – has improved over the past two years and is being imported from Italy, France and Austria."

Like this for example

ACCLIMATIMATISATION, ACUTE MOUNTAIN SICKNESS AND HAPE



Based on non-trivial medical events, an altitude of 3000 m or more is considered high altitude (HA) although significant individual susceptibility occurs at 2500 m. More than 45 million permanent or nomadic population is estimated to live above 3000 m scattered across 12 mountains and plateaus in all continents. A very large number of lowlanders visit HA for tourism, sports or professional purposes and constitute a high-risk group.

A subtle-to-gross change at multiple biochemical and functional levels takes place at HA. The changes correlate roughly with altitude and rate of ascent of a person and are influenced by a number of collateral factors, controllable or uncontrollable. Lack of or slow acclimatisation, non-specific appetite loss followed by weight loss, acute and chronic mountain sickness, high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE), high altitude cerebral edema (HACE), cold injuries, and diseases secondary to thromboembolic phenomenon (and their complex interplay) have been recognised as major pathological entities at HA. DRDO has done pioneering work in understanding the basic issues involved and developing medical strategies to combat these problems. It involves both allopathic and alternative/traditional methods of treatment. DIPAS has done extensive work on pathophysiologic changes associated with HA and their correction using micronutrients, nitric oxide, glutamic acid and several herbal products. To compliment the ongoing activities under the same umbrella, INMAS has now initiated a multi-pronged programme having diagnostic and therapeutic components using allopathic system of medicine. Based primarily on nuclear medicine technology, several diagnostic methodologies and drug formulations have been developed that have direct relevance for HA medicine.




DRDO has made some original observations that are important for residents at HA including defence and paramilitary forces after undertaking the largest global pulse oximetry survey. Besides creating a large databank serving as a reference at different altitudes, it was found that a new inductee has a higher heart rate and lower blood oxygen level compared to the natives, which only gets partially corrected during acclimatisation at extreme heights. Age, physical fitness, genetics, but not gender of a new entrant has a bearing on blood oxygen level. Among highlanders, different ethnic groups may have different basal oxygen levels. Surprisingly, basal heart rate is significantly lower in most adapted ethnic groups, who also may have highest exercise capacity. Highlander infants have significantly lower blood oxygen, a fact that can have anthropologic and recruitment significance. Clubbing is common in elders suggesting chronic hypoxemia.

Acclimatisation appears to follow circadian cycle and may be a 'night-time' phenomenon. Food, postural and exercise response gets more abnormal with altitude in non-acclimatised personnel and more so in acute mountain sickness (AMS). Blood oxygen level deteriorates drastically in any individual after a critical altitude.


Simple Diagnostic Protocols for AMS & HAPE Susceptibility

Hypoxemia at rest correlates with mountain sickness with high specificity but low sensitivity. Non-acclimatisation can also a be judged objectively by person's response to food and beverage intake, postural changes, physical stress and sleep.

DRDO has introduced a simple non-invasive test, exercise provoked pulse oximetry (EPPO), that may be used to segregate asymptomatic inductees into 'normal', 'non-acclimatised',

'susceptible to benign mountain sickness' and ‘susceptible to malignant mountain sickness' categories with high sensitivity. This concept is based on initial pilot studies.

Critical values of EPPO are being defined by collecting more data. The test can also be used with obviousadvantages in assessing medical fitness of soldiers at HA. Two new pathology terms and a new simple mathematical parameter have been introduced that may quantitatively define 'acclimatisation', 'medical fitness', and to AMS' and make comparisons easy to assess improvement or deterioration of mountain sickness objectively.



Preventive & Treatment Protocols for AMS, HAPE, & HACE
Simple changes in lifestyle of inductees in terms of food, posture, and physical and respiratory exercises can help them to acclimatise faster and arrest complications. The same is true for residents at extreme altitude. Medical management of altitude-related symptoms and diseases may now include glycerol, mannitol, prokinetic agents, and antiplatelet agents in an appropriate subgroup of patients.


ITAD

DRDO has introduced a novel concept inhalation therapy for alveolar deposition (ITAD) for treating cases with pulmonary hypertention, AMS, HAPE and HACE. Using a simple delivery system, Anukool, developed at INMAS, ITAD therapy can also be given at field level even by non-medical personnel. More than 150 personnel have undergone the therapy, majority of whom were defence personnel. The treatment has been successfully performed at Referral & Research Army Hospital, Delhi; District Hospital, Keylong; and District Hospital, Leh; Badrinath Shrine Trust Hospital, Chamoli, Uttaranchal, and at various stations in Ladakh and upper Himachal with participation of the district and army authorities. The 14 Corps is currently using the systems developed by DRDO at many places, including Siachen Hospital.

DRDO has already introduced nitric oxide therapy (more appropriate for hospital-based patients) and HAPO bags (more appropriate for on-the-spot emergency management) for HAPE patients. ITAD therapy is appropriate in the field conditions as well as for hospitals, both as an emergency measure and maintenance therapy. The frequency and severity of this frequently fatal condition is expected to come down significantly using these approaches.



Anukool Drug Delivery System

ITAD acts by increasing pulmonary circulation, reducing pulmonary hypertension and increasing oxygen transport across the lung. A 20 per cent reduction in pulmonary hypertension, 5-15 per cent increase in blood oxygen and similar reduction in heart rate causes correction of cardio-pulmonary stress and improves mountain sickness and other diseases with similar pathology. This is possible due to preferred drug deposition in the alveoli using Anukool system. Drug deposition with commercial systems occurs in oropharynx and broncho-tracheal region making these unsuitable for use in HAPE and AMS.

Anukool drug-delivery system is a simple nebuliser-based equipment that works on re-entry principle. When connected between the aerosol generator and the mouthpiece, it changes AMAD features of the aerosols in such a way that it favours its deposition in the lung periphery rather than the central regions. This causes enhanced local effect of the drug and minimal systemic effect. The system is cheap enough for widespread use at HA.

Safety and beneficial effects of ITAD therapy and Anukool delivery system have been validated using nuclear medicine imaging and ECHO facilities at INMAS and animal trial at DIPAS before conducting field trials in collaboration with 14 Corps


Salient Features


Twenty per cent reduction in pulmonary hypertension

Fifteen per cent improvement in blood oxygen and heart rate

Improved exercise tolerance at HA

Early response in AMS/HAPE

Safe, easy and cost-effective technology

 

[Vinod2070]

By that logic, no one can discuss any military endeavor in the world because someone who doesn't like where the logic is going will claim "because they know more".

Besides, darkstar and myself can hardly be termed enthusiasts as far as India's military blunders are concerned. Think of us more like un-Indian affiliated observers realistically commenting on the aspects of India's "outpost of glory"

Now an eye opener for the real enthusiasts here, a piece from a true professional military observer; Brian Cloughley is a British/Australian officer by profession and served as deputy head of the UN mission in Kashmir.

"The reason the description of the Line stopped at grid reference NJ 980420 was that nobody in their right mind (or words to that effect) could possibly want any of the land between there and the Great Wall of China..."

"Nobody, at that time, imagined that there might be military confrontation in the area. It would be futile to attempt to wage war at such heights, at the end of long lines communication, with no strategic or even tactical aim, in an area in which mere existence (and no-one lived there) would involve great hazard in moving tiny distances. Who would send troops to occupy a terrifying wasteland where there was no threat of invasion or even territorial infringement?
Mrs Gandhi.”

-A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections. Wonderful book, I suggest you read it. And before you get any ideas do read this too:
‘The book has the special advantage of being written by an observant military author who is both candid and objective’-Lt. Gen V.R. Raghavan, former Indian Director General of Military Operations.
So yes, qualified Indian officers do know the realities of the situation. But that doesn’t mean they have the priority or ability to act.

Well I would like to know your credentials to make an assessment of this fantastic claim.

You do know about Indian military blunders! Anything about Gibralter, Grandslam, Kargil, 1971, need I mention some more?

Nobody in his right mind would have tried to pull a Kargill too, I guess. It had failure and blunder written all over it from the word GO. In fact I think it marked a new downward trajectory for Pakistan internationally, one where Pakistan began to be taken as an unpredictable maverick with its hands on a nuclear button that needed to be actively "managed".

It was not only a military debacle but a bigger political and diplomatic one.

So yes, India may have made its military mistakes but it has had the courage to acknowledge them and learn from them.

Can you say the same for your own military? With honesty!

Now it’s all good to be enthusiastic and have loyalties, but blinding and deluding yourself to true realities or allowing unqualified others to blind you through romanticism and pride…now that sort of thing will result in all enthusiasm and no realism which would make forums like this quite useless, wouldn’t you say?

I agree without reservations and would like you to reflect on it instead of just making such profound statements.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Like this for example

And those efforts are to be commended, and I am sure they play their part, but it would be inaccurate to state that it is DRDO alone that is responsible for the low casualty rates, as the officers mentioned.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well I would like to know your credentials to make an assessment of this fantastic claim.

I thought he backed it up with Brian Cloughly's arguments, supported by an Indian DGMO.

 

[Vinod2070]

I thought he backed it up with Brian Cloughly's arguments, supported by an Indian DGMO.

I meant this.

Besides, darkstar and myself can hardly be termed enthusiasts as far as India's military blunders are concerned. Think of us more like un-Indian affiliated observers realistically commenting on the aspects of India's "outpost of glory"

If someone wants to be known as a pro, we have the right to seek the qualification.

 

[third eye]

If Pak has so many probs , why does it simply not verify where the troops are on both sides of LAC in Siachen, verfy their exact locations , sign on the map & pull back.

This is what has been the position of the IA all along.

 

[blain2]

I read a report which said IA had a year of zero fatalities in Siachen. I'l try and dig it out. Either ways, the news peice quoted states that the casualties have been greatly reduced.

Stick to whatever you want mate, its not the ceasefire which has changed much, its the equipment available to them courtesy DRDO. And things would definitely improve much more as soon as the pilots there get new choppers and the ground facilities get built. India is building its border infrastructure everywhere, at a fast pace.

Malay, based on what I have heard, the ceasefire definitely has had an indirect role in the reduction of casualties on both sides. Neither side is taking aggressive risks, positions that have been remain as they were. The sense of urgency is also not at the same level as it was before to supply and support positions (although the normal dumping still goes on). Secondly, over the years, the ability to evacuate has improved as well.

I am sure DRDO is providing rations and stuff of that nature, however most of the personal equipment in use on the glacier for officers and jawans is being provided by Alpine based firms like Koflach (which I know for sure is providing gear like footwear for the Indian Army). Pakistan has other suppliers. Neither India nor Pakistan have the technology to develop such gear in house which has been constantly improving the comfort levels of the troops and providing greater protection in the cold.