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Should we be grateful that Bose failed?

Is it a good thing that Japanese were defeated in Kohima?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • can't say

    Votes: 13 43.3%

  • Total voters
    30
@Spectre

Alternative history is never easy. Anything can happen. But if the Japanese had won, then we would have been worse off than China was under them. Remember that China was an independent nation by the time the Japanese started their war of aggression against her. The Japanese would never have treated India differently; in fact, their record of treating Indian prisoners, not just the ordinary brutality that they inflicted on all prisoners, but their use as targets for firing practice, shows what would have been the norm in an occupied India.

There will be those who talk enthusiastically about the INA and about Subhash Bose; unfortunately, those were just pawns, to the Japanese, they were never given anything more than superficial control over themselves. Again, a brief look into history will make the point. Whether in Korea, or in China, through their catspaws in Manchukuo, or in any other country, including Burma, they encouraged a faction that would cooperate with their military administration and not ask too many questions. Day to day governance always remained firmly in the hands of the Japanese.

But Bose and the INA were what gave India her independence, according to dozens of emotional Indians, especially Bengalis, and to those who routinely, almost professionally hate Nehru and the Congress in general, for no reason much more convincing than that the Congress represented the 'in' people, those whose word in the right ear could move the levers of power, and they, the critics, identified themselves, whether for education, for social status, or for profession or professional status, with the 'out' people, those whose voices could be raised high but were not heard.

This is a distortion. It is the jaundiced vision of two distinct sets of people: one, the westernised professional who feels faintly embarrassed at the primitive whiff of Gandhi's popularism and habits and practices, those who spontaneously turn the conversation away from Nehru and the flirtation with the enemies of the west that the India of the first thirty odd years of her existence conjured up in the minds of these Indians, even if these were no longer the pictures conjured up in the minds of their daily life associates.

The other is point of view of those who have convinced themselves that the abstention of their forebears and intellectual leadership from the rigours and pains of the physical and intellectual struggle against the British Empire was in fact a disguise for a greater loyalty, to a greater struggle yet, more profound in nature than the struggle against the Raj. This was the struggle against the creeping westernisation, the so-called modernisation that disguised the subversion of an ancient and eminent civilisation that exceeded the western world in every possible way, but had been reduced to silence by a series of military conquests. That, too, became part of scripture; the conscious and deliberate destruction of an old way of life by the weight of the sword and through the near-ethnic cleansing of generations of Indians at the hanof cruel, barbaric practitioners of a primitive religion. It is difficult to suppress the feeling of the simplistic that a reversal was the answer, that giving the invaders sitting in our midst a taste of their own medicine, of robbery, murder, rape of their women, forcible conversion, attacks on their cultural attributes.......all these are now considered legitimate weapons for achieving redressal of ancient and ongoing wrongs inflicted by a brutal minority on a suffering minority. And what better way to start than by inflicting a sharp military defeat on the latest invader, with the help of Asian allies?

The truth, as always, lies in between. It was not Gokhale and Jinnah's constitutionalism, it was not Gandhi's raising of the masses and his unabashed appeals to the strongest emotional levers of the farming or working Indian, and it was not Bose's failed attempt at a military solution that brought the British to leave, finally. That makes it appear that they were grimly determined to hang on till eternity. A travesty of the truth. The Minto-Morley Reforms of 1919 were just the first step. The rising tempo of reform and attempted empowerment then reached a peak with the Government of India Act, 1935, which eerily anticipates much of what the Indian Constitution and its makers thought of fifteen years alter. Of course, that is irony; of course, the constitution makers obviously looked back at the 1935 Act and picked up whatever appealed to them. That is not the point. The point is the rising belief within the British that they had to let go at some time or the other, and that it should be done in a planned and systematic manner, justifying all they had done in their time as a necessary prelude to the handing over of power to the native Indian.

This, then, the realisation that Britain could not rule India for ever, and the growing belief that preliminary action had to be taken, without delay, was the fourth factor. There was, as it happens, a fifth as well.

Britain had just won a war, and had just entered into a new social contract, and was tired of Empire. What the majority who had given their vote about the nature of the forming of the post-war world did not want was another round in a conflict that had no glory at the end of it, that could be seen, no huge rewards, in fact, the contrary, and no huge opportunity for their gainful employment. Britain wanted to get out of India.

Which of these factors, then, should we hold pre-eminent? Why, none, for none was above the others. Let us simply remain thankful for what we have and what we easily might have missed out on having; Bose wanted a period of ten to fifteen years of military rule. Does that sound familiar? And would his pre-empting Ayub have got us further ahead?

Somehow I doubt it.


As penned by @Joe Shearer

@PARIKRAMA have posted it. Told him to do so himself. But he is hesitating

Purely from an academic PoV, I have a few questions (not rebuttals) which I would like to address to @Joe Shearer and would be much much obliged if you can pass them on

1. I agree and I also stated in my OP that British exhaustion too played a large part in our Independence. However exhaustion even from a purely scientific frame comes from expenditure of force against a resistant object. That various elements like Armed Revolutionaries, Congress and INA formed a part of this resistance is undeniable.

What interests me is romanticism aside, How essential were efforts of Bose to our struggle if not counterproductive - Gandhi's shrewd appeal of non violence in my opinion was targeted as much towards the West with all their new found concepts of morality and justice as the Indian masses. Bose on the other hand waged a conventional fight which West could understand and therefore respond to quite emphatically on their own terms.

2. What was the composition of INA, was it religion neutral? Did it invite equal support from Hindus and Muslims

3. What was the equation b/w Bose and Jinnah? Did he have any views on demands of ML?

Regards
 
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This, then, the realisation that Britain could not rule India for ever, and the growing belief that preliminary action had to be taken, without delay, was the fourth factor. There was, as it happens, a fifth as well.

Britain had just won a war, and had just entered into a new social contract, and was tired of Empire. What the majority who had given their vote about the nature of the forming of the post-war world did not want was another round in a conflict that had no glory at the end of it, that could be seen, no huge rewards, in fact, the contrary, and no huge opportunity for their gainful employment. Britain wanted to get out of India.

Very well written. Britain left due to the reasons mentioned, but it also gave the opportunity for false heroes to claim that they are the ones who forced them out. An inconvenient truth perhaps, but something to understand nonetheless.
 
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1. They had an history of racial discrimination even against their Eastern counterparts in Korea and China

The Japanese forces often tied prisoners over bamboo and kill them by the shoot growing through them while their screams reverberated through the forests. (My uncle fought them and this is a firsthand account.)
 
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The Japanese forces often tied prisoners over bamboo and kill them by the shoot growing through them while their screams reverberated through the forests. (My uncle fought them and this is a firsthand account.)

There is so much horror to be found "everywhere". Where US soldiers any less cruel in Vietnam? or British any less cruel in their countless campaigns? War brings out the worst among men.

The sole point I was trying to make was that it is a folly to assume that Japanese would have come to India as liberators and we as Japanese subjects would have received any special dispensations.
 
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The Japanese forces often tied prisoners over bamboo and kill them by the shoot growing through them while their screams reverberated through the forests. (My uncle fought them and this is a firsthand account.)


@Spectre

I have the dubious distinction of having four of my blood relatives being 'liquidated' by the Japanese at Changi after the surrender of the British Indian Army.

Hence, again, for me, good riddance:enjoy:
 
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The sole point I was trying to make was that it is a folly to assume that Japanese would have come to India as liberators and we as Japanese subjects would have received any special dispensations.

You are correct in that exchanging one master for another matters not to the slave.

@Spectre

I have the dubious distinction of having four of my blood relatives being 'liquidated' by the Japanese at Changi after the surrender of the British Indian Army.

Hence, again, for me, good riddance:enjoy:

They were probably the lucky ones. Life in Japanese PoW camps was particularly harsh in that theater.
 
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I agree and I also stated in my OP that British exhaustion too played a large part in our Independence. However exhaustion even from a purely scientific frame comes from expenditure of force against a resistant object. That various elements like Armed Revolutionaries, Congress and INA formed a part of this resistance is undeniable.

The first and foremost reason for the British to quit India was the economic and secondly, the emerging world order wherein they could not possibly justify razing a country to ground and using nukes on another on basis of freedom and liberty of people and adopt a contrarian approach at their own end.

I do agree, the cost was increased by the said groups as you have highlighted, but they are inconsequential insofar as influence on decision to quit as taken.

What interests me is romanticism aside, How essential were efforts of Bose to our struggle if not counterproductive - Gandhi's shrewd appeal of non violence in my opinion was targeted as much towards the West with all their new found concepts of morality and justice as the Indian masses. Bose on the other hand waged a conventional fight which West could understand and therefore respond to quite emphatically on their own terms.


Bose, in my opinion, and here I risk the wrath of fellow Indians and Bengalis, was a man who believed in his cause and was willing to go to any extent to achieve it. His biggest mistake was to step down and allow GL Nanda (our very obscure ex-PM) to take over just because MK Gandhi opposed his election as President. I think that was a mistake on his part, as MK Gandhi assumed an unassailable role of leadership which bordered on totalitarian (something which antagonised MA Jinnah too, with disastrous consequences for India) and that was the death knell of an United India.
 
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@Spectre

I have the dubious distinction of having four of my blood relatives being 'liquidated' by the Japanese at Changi after the surrender of the British Indian Army.

Hence, again, for me, good riddance:enjoy:

You have touched upon the idea I have had for a thread. It is meant with no malice but explores the inherent conflicts and contradictions b/w the existence of British Indian Army and Idea of India. It will deal with concepts of Nationalism, role of Civil services and passive resistance in context of our freedom struggle. So far this Bose thread has bee good - time to explore the other side of equation
 
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The first and foremost reason for the British to quit India was the economic and secondly, the emerging world order wherein they could not possibly justify razing a country to ground and using nukes on another on basis of freedom and liberty of people and adopt a contrarian approach at their own end.

In the end it comes down to the most ignored but critical facet of any civilization or endeavor - LOGISTICS.

Just for an instance imagine - if Indians had been happy and obedient subjects of her majesty. There would have been greater autonomy due to logistical costs imposed by Geography but our constitutional head of state would have still been the Queen. , Canada and Australia are all brilliant examples but less savory ones like S. Africa also do exist where vaccum left by colonial empires was not filled by natives but likes of NP from 48 onwards.
 
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@WAJsal

You just posted one of many such pictures.I could've posted some pictures from the book "Subhash ghore fere nai"(English Translation... Subhash didn't return home)..if only I can dig those...even after 100 years later,probably my grand grand son and your grand grandson will have same conversation..

second,those who term Bose as "Romantic and Passionate" or whatever,they should know one little fact about Bose.When Bose fled and was in Afghanistan(as far as I remember),SU's ambassador approached Bose to pledge
their support to free India from British rule.Bose replied,"Oh yeah??And whom I've to invite to free India from Soviet rule??"

Bose knew geopolitics better than all the greenhorns here.He formed an Army which was quite capable to invade and fight British,the then superpower out of nothing.He knew,Japanese support was evident as if anything could beat British firepower,it was Japan.Sadly enough,Japan blundered on this key point and so did AHF.

Yes,Japan commenced enough atrocities.During occupation of A&N,they committed atrocities in there as well,and probably commenced in India as well.But did not British commenced an atrocity several times harsher??And who knew this better than the Bangalis,right??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

Yes buddies,it was a choice between staying under British rule and begging for independence for indefinite timeframe ,or strike when opportunity knocks your door.Bose chose later one,and yes,these plans were not made by Bose himself.Rather,it was work of a lifetime of this guy..

Rash_bihari_bose.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rash_Behari_Bose

Possibly greatest revolutionary India has seen,but there is very less "Chatter" about him,because this guy,single handedly formed a massive organization on which INA was formed.
 
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Its unfortunate that we did not have more likes of Subhash Chadra Bose. People who were real patriots, who had the spine and never cared for their lives. Speculations have no limit. But the facts cannot be distorted. History can be distorted as we can see the glorification of barbarians like Tipu Sultan and "ahimsa" and disregard of revolutionaries who were against the congress. Congress was a bunch of opportunist who were led by the two of the greatest perverts in India's history. Its hilarious to see people here criticizing Netaji. The man who wanted nothing but freedom for India. Unlike the congress who were waiting for the British to leave to come to power. "Ahimsa", non violence was a joke. It was a policy of the cowards and if not WW2 we would have never got freedom. Womanizers like gandhi and nehru were british agents whom the british used to control Indian population.

Netaji Subhash Chadra Bose. ICS topper. Left congress at the height of his popularity realizing it to be a bunch of cowards. Formed an Army against all odds. INA's red fort trials shook the British which "Ahimsa" farce would have never achieved in their dreams. Gave his life for the nation unlike any congie. always believed that in the simple truth that British ruled India with Indian soldiers and India would be free if they turn against the British. None of the colonial powers were angels. Netaji wanted a free India and at any cost so it does not matter if he took the help of Hitler or Japan. He travelled the world for our freedom. He is one of the few freedom fighters who make us proud.
Respect for THE GREATEST FREEDOM FIGHTER WHO EVER LIVED.
 
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Bose did not fight for muslims or hindus. He fought for all of us to rid us of British rule. As a secularist I do believe his being hindu was the cause of much demonization and lack of respect. At that time getting the British out was the only real goal of hindus and muslims. For this he rendered major sacrifices which we must salute. Though hjis army did not win major battles its the thought that counts.

India however has learned nothing. It has received freedom and taken the freedom of states like Kashmir and Lucknow. They have the same striving for independence which India and Pakistan had against the British. As such I feel an affinity with Bose.
 
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Bose did not fight for muslims or hindus. He fought for all of us to rid us of British rule. As a secularist I do believe his being hindu was the cause of much demonization and lack of respect. At that time getting the British out was the only real goal of hindus and muslims. For this he rendered major sacrifices which we must salute. Though hjis army did not win major battles its the thought that counts.

India however has learned nothing. It has received freedom and taken the freedom of states like Kashmir and Lucknow. They have the same striving for independence which India and Pakistan had against the British. As such I feel an affinity with Bose.
I sincerely believe if Bose was in power the sub-continent would be one country. No Jinnah or Nehru would have ever succeeded in breaking India
 
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