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Should Pakistan join the Z-20 Helicopter project with China?

Dont need to. As such the Mi-17 provides an excellent go-to platform for the service in the medium-heavy gap within our forces. What is needed is a heavy lifter and a light-medium platform. Currently the inventory is rather balanced with the light-medium classes pretty much taken care of except the Puma's which will eventually need replacement(if funds permit the newer Puma derivatives offer the logical choice) where the Z-20 may have potential.

The Allouettes within PA have their best replacement with more Fennec variants as they are excellent at high altitude operations such as in Siachen or in certain FATA areas. The Uh-1s can be replaced with more 412s or sanctions notwithstanding the 412 EPI. However, with funding status just the Huey II upgrade via the various vendors offering it will also suffice to extend operations well into the mid-late 2020s.

There is a dearth in training platforms which is the real primary concern and for that the top prospects lie in the Kazan Mi-34/44 platform which can be procured on licence to replace both the Schwizer 330 in the training role along with the Jet Ranger. Another option would be the Agusta Westland SW-4 but then it would be more expensive. A more logical alternative is actually the Sikorsky S-333 as it is similar to what the Army currently operates as its primary trainer but sanctions and US origin make it unlikely.

So at the end, where can the PA procure this gap in the Heavy lifting capacity is the real question. As the top three competitors are all out of reach( CH-47,CH-53 and Mi-26).
What do you think of Z9 as light-medium replacement?
 
Investment in Z20 maybe low possible. Because z20 is not a noticeable export or joint project. And think for the moment it's is mature enough, PAF can directly imports it even the beltline

I think given the state of our relations with China & our long track record of joint ventures, it won't be an issue. The issue is if PAA has the foresight to replace its helis in due time with a platform produced at home rather than importing it.

PAF and PN requirements are small unless PAF turns its Special Services Wing into a full blown air borne outfit.
 
@Oscar don't we have chance with CH 47 of Australia which are meant to be replaced with pretty much juice left in it and what about CH-43 of Italy which they have in storage ?? I heard these were offered to us after 2005 earthquake when we show our interest after watching them in action in Pakistan.
 
Why not? Pakistan can receive technical by helicopters,that is the most valuable things in this project.
I think Chinese will help Pakistan to be a powerful and dignity country as we can.
I am sorry ,I'm not good at English,i hope you can understand what i'm talking about.
巴铁走起!
 

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Oh sure! we getting chinook from Australia and Italy why not just go for the v22 osprey.
pff itni se baat howi Z 20 per or ye abhi se loog Chinnok ka khwab dejhne lage:rofl::closed::cuckoo:
 
In current scenario we need some helos and we should buy additional Russian mi-35 and let z-20 to reach its maturity level and some upgrades will be on the way and if we can use our current hels for next 25 years then at least we should wait for another 5 years,as now we can send these takfiris to hell by using Armed Drones,right now we should invest on drones and buy some Russian helis..
 
@Horus it will be good to go for that, if we go for Z-10 production line because we severally lack night flying in PAA an Z-20 and Z-10 are going to do that.
 
it's ok
Why not? Pakistan can receive technical by helicopters,that is the most valuable things in this project.
I think Chinese will help Pakistan to be a powerful and dignity country as we can.
I am sorry ,I'm not good at English,i hope you can understand what i'm talking about.
巴铁走起![/QUOTEI. it's ok man,同胞,这可是学英语的好机会! our allies will respect you
 
i think we should , some Variety of system will improve Capabilities of PA ...
 
What's the per unit cost?
I think i would prefer more Mi-17's over Z-20. They are cheaper, sturdier and reliable.
 
In my opinion the funds would be better spent on certain essential projects that got stalled in the previous governments era, for instance, NECOP, POF upgrade and revamping. While Z-20 is a very attractive project, there is no urgent need for replacement in the category it belongs in and by the time it would be required we can go or licensed production in the future. By then hopefully our economy would also have turned around.
 
As Oscar has explained military part quit in detail therefore I would ask you all to bear me a little to go off-topic here

I believe our more immediate & pressing need for Helicopters comes form civilian sector where we almost lack this capability completely in Policing and Emergency services, not a single fire department in any of our Metropolitan cities have helicopter, in Karachi we have only 2 snorkel (1 is out service I believe) which can't go beyond the height of 120 or 150 ft because of this reason there were number of incidents occurred when Fir Brigade found herself in need to call PN for help like the incidents of fire in PNSC building, State Life Building, MCB tower & so on, now add need for Police department to this as well, other then these wide scale rescue work is another area where helis are so much needed like 2005 Earthquake & 2009 flood relief & rescue work.

In short in civil sector we require a good number of Helicopters of light & medium lift category which may vary from 300-500 to meet existing requirements all over Pakistan over the years, this is the guesstimated market potential which if turned into demand may provide sufficient bases for in-house production of helis either under licence or joint production which would not just enhance our industrial capabilities but provide the bases for any future military program

But the tricky question is either we should go to China or to any other source such as Russia for this sort of project ???

Primarily I would prefer Russian involvement because this will provide sort of foundation of Economic interest & stakes of Russia in Pakistan which can further enhance with the passage of time, secondly we are already operating Russian built helis in our army, so are familiar with these birds.

I once again apologize for off-topic post.
 
* Pakistan's tri services have more than 300 helicopters in service.

* Pakistan Army Aviation has over 250 Utility Helicopters in service most of which would require a replacement within the next 25 year time period. It includes various models of Mi-17, Bell, Puma, Alouette III, Lama, AS550s etc

* Chinese firm Herbin is developing a new helicopter based on the UH-60 Blackhawks they bought in the 80s. This helicopter is much different than a Blackhawk with its distinctive 5 rotor blade, a larger cabin, different landing gear, tail etc.

This machine can lift 4 tonnes of cargo and has good high altitude flight features. The question is, would it be good for Pakistan to join the Z-20 program at this development stage and bring its production to Pakistan, in order to replace all Utility Helicopters in service with various modified models for Utility, Armed Escort, S&R, Sea ops, light attack (like the battlehawk) as well as the civilian applications for rescue and emergency?

I've said it times and times before, if any JV is available with the Chinese, Pakistan should jump on it. The analogy I'll give is building a house. If Pakistan can learn to build houses by itself (houses being helicopters, jets, SAMS, AEW, etc), the major part is done. Now everyone knows that this home may not have a nice layout such as the one provided by the West (in terms of avionics, radars, etc), but you can buy those from whoever else later or do home grown research.

The key is, you learned to build houses internally and for a fraction of the cost you currently pay to Western markets. Once there is a working structure that would meet basic needs, you can advance that structure and build nicer homes in the future internally, and without spending billions of dollars outside.

Indians, for the longest time, due to being a very poor country, drove Maruti's, etc. and had a total ban on importing cars, to sponsor made in India products. Now look where they are.......they now own Land Rover and Jaguars, etc, and have serious internal competition.

A JV on helicopters will do two things, it'll set up an aviation industry for both, the military and the civilian markets. Soon, in the next decade, when the economy and the GDP grows about 20-30% more (4-5% over 6-7 years), you'll start to see a LOT more new millionaires in the system, many new thriving businesses, a lot more public welfare projects, etc.

The Hospital footprint's, as one example, is expanding in Pakistan so at some point, Air Lift capability will be added, more Police Choppers, Customs, Rangers, Para Military, and all will be needed. The Rich would want to buy these too.

So all in all, if today, say your military has over 300 utility helicopters, imagine standardizing with one ingeniously built platform for utility choppers, which you can build, maintain and advance internally. Forever, leaving the utility helicopters' foreign market as a buyer and saving many billions per year. With having thousands of new hi tech jobs internally, and eventually, end up creating internal companies which can produce more models and compete with each other.

If you had a strong platform like this, you could arm it as a light-medium platform yourself, letting go of the older platforms, standardize weapons and maintenance capabilities (and save money there also), and being able to sell these to foreign markets for a fraction of what someone would pay to the West.

To many countries, price matters, and you capitalize that market! Its a win win situation. Same should happen on the Metro-Train, High Speed Rail (eventually), Stealth Jet (if the money allows for it), Subs, SAMS, AEW and Radars. The Chinese may be behind the US in terms of capability, but IMO, on may items, they are on par or above Russia (or soon, going above Russia). So anything Pakistan gets as a TOT, will help her locally and will allow it to sell internationally and make $$$$. The Chinese won't mind giving you tot on certain things, you use it to your own country's advantage.
 
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If Pakistan is interested in domestic production then it should have Light Combat Heli -T-129 / Z-19, Medium / Heavy Combat Heli Z-10, Utility Heli Z-9, Medium Lift Heli Z-20 and then Heavy Lift Heli CH-47, Mi-26.

All these would take time, China would reverse engineer the CH-47 or the Mi-26 so Pakistan can also join those.

Looking at the West then the mind set is changing from having high lift heli's to vertical lift aircraft which can be more practical. So all options are open at this time.
 

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