Should PAF have gone for Miarge 2000 instead of F-16 in 80's?

[mundaus]

Do you think PAF should have gone in 1980's for Mirage 2000 instead of F-16 because of poor American political record? There are also stories about kickbacks floating around in F-16 deal and wondering if those kickbacks turned the table in favor of F-16.

Would ove to hear from Muradk!

 

[metalfalcon]

F-16 at time Provided Pakistan with a Qualitative Edge against IAF and Invading Russian Air force From Afghanistan.

F-16 was the right choice and best for PAF at that Time, I dont see a mistake in the selection of the Plane.

 

[shehbazi2001]

The re-shaping of PAF in early 1980s with 40 F-16A/Bs, 50 A-5IIIs and 32 Mirage-5s were a very major capability upgrade for PAF.

That first buy of F-16 was not bad in itself from capability point of view, while not considering kickbacks etc. It also brought the all-aspect AIM-9L. But still I think that it would have been better to purchase Mirage F-1E instead of Mirage-5. At that time, all the air forces were buying Mirage F-1E and in Iran-Iraq war, the performance of Mirage F-1E was quite impressive esp when it shot down Irani F-14 Tomcat too.

Pakistan could have acquired BVR AAM (Super 530D) and Anti-Radiation missile (Armat) capability way back in 1980s had it inducted Mirage F-1E instead of Mirage-5. F-1E with M53 engine has far better performance than the 60s era -5.

 

[mean_bird]

F-16 started prodcution in 1978 and PAF got it in 1983...thats like getting a EF2000 today or a JSF in the next 5 years. It was a very good choice and I think it must have been partly sponsored by US since it was primarily for fighting off Russian jets.

Going for it now again has some advantage as its being bought off FMF and covers MLUs of our existing fleet. Reducing the numbers from 36 F-16 blk 50/52+ to just 18 is a very good idea indeed.

In short, F-16 was a great plane and it was a good idea to get it back then. But it has lived its life...time to move forward now.

 

[Quwa]

The past is the past, there was good and bad. Believe it or not, in the late 1940s we had elected civilian leaders who tried buying American fighters under license production! Efforts in this regard - i.e. producing fighters - were being made from almost day one. Although we have JF-17, some are raising the question of possibly producing FC-20 domestically...though a Pakistani official said there was no industrial interest at this time.

 

[mundaus]

There was also a very strong pro-American crew in charge of PAF in the 1980s. In the 1970s it was generally thought that PAF would acquire Mirage F-1 and 2000, as PAF was a major customer of Mirage III/V.

Well, that has been the case all along. Even the current high command is from F-16. Most of the chief's came from F-16 sqdrns.

 

[Quwa]

Well, that has been the case all along. Even the current high command is from F-16. Most of the chief's came from F-16 sqdrns.

Well the 1980s crew it was another issue, the Mirage III/V was the best fighter in PAF before F-16. Although we have ACMs who all flew F-16s, recognize that they put more investment in JF-17 and FC-20 than F-16.

 

[niaz]

The re-shaping of PAF in early 1980s with 40 F-16A/Bs, 50 A-5IIIs and 32 Mirage-5s were a very major capability upgrade for PAF.

That first buy of F-16 was not bad in itself from capability point of view, while not considering kickbacks etc. It also brought the all-aspect AIM-9L. But still I think that it would have been better to purchase Mirage F-1E instead of Mirage-5. At that time, all the air forces were buying Mirage F-1E and in Iran-Iraq war, the performance of Mirage F-1E was quite impressive esp when it shot down Irani F-14 Tomcat too.

Pakistan could have acquired BVR AAM (Super 530D) and Anti-Radiation missile (Armat) capability way back in 1980s had it inducted Mirage F-1E instead of Mirage-5. F-1E with M53 engine has far better performance than the 60s era -5.


However, the serious mishap seems to be the 1990's attempted buy of F-16s. Those F-16s were not delivered due to Pressler amendments but even then its amazing that PAF was adding more fighters without BVR missiles. I dont think that AMRAAM was part of that package.

Don’t know if people remember that in the late 70’s French Defence Minister was fired for accepting the fact that F-16 was superior.

During the early 80’s, on one of the trips to Middle East, a BAE executive happened to be sitting next to me. He was involved in the Al-Yamamah contract where Saudis were paying for Tornados with oil. This was also the time when Iraqi F-1s were firing Exocets on the vessels loading at Iranian ports.

During the discussions I learned that F-16 was a far more deadly aircraft than Mirage F-1. Only Radar in Mirage F-1 was better. F-1 had a look down/ shoot down radar.

This is also borne out by the fact that F-1 was very soon superseded by Mirage 2000 (French reverting back to delta wing). Mirage 2000 is a comparable plane to F-16. Another fact being that while production of F-1 closed 15 years back. F-16 in the block 70 form is still being offered to India.

 

[BoggedDown]

Buying F16s during 80s was the right decision that PAF ever made. And thanks to President Zia that he stick to his demand for F16s and nothing less from USA. But what PAF made mistake is not to buy Miraage 2000s as well as they were also offerrd at very resonable price. After 65s and 71s debalce PAF should have recognized that USA was not a reliable partner and they should have spread the buy from multiple sources. That is what smart airforces do to minimize the risk e.g Taiwan (F16s & Mirage 2000s), Greece (F16s & Mirage 2000s), UAE (F16s & Mirage 2000s), Saudi AF (F15 and Tornados). Malaysia AF (Su-30 & F18s) and many other AF operates multiple fighters with near similar capabilities from differents sources. But PAF try to be over smart to achieve over optimization with the obsession of only "Made in USA is the best". That has lead it to be in current shamble it is in. Luckily, in last few years it has awaken up with self reliance and diversification but current state of economy is the main obstacle to catch up the lead IAF has....

 

[Hasnain2009]

We consider F-16 greater fighter as compare to latest Su MKI in 2009, so for 1980's, it was good choice to buy F-16!! And for further modernising the fleet i think PAF should have to get license for production of J-10b in PAC kamra, that will be graeat!!

 

[princefaisal]

Pakistan could have acquired BVR AAM (Super 530D) and Anti-Radiation missile (Armat) capability way back in 1980s had it inducted Mirage F-1E instead of Mirage-5. F-1E with M53 engine has far better performance than the 60s era -5.

Pakistan can buy MICA or other French BVR missile any time if it intends to. From 1990s we are searching for a suitable aircraft for the replacement of F16s but uptil now nothing better than F16 has been acquired. All our achievement is the JF-17 which is still inferior in performance. Now we are waiting for our own BVR missiles.

 

[Zob]

well we bought F-16s and shot down Russian fighters with them...and the only reason we didn't diversify is cuz we had 2 problems firstly lack of funds and secondly logistical nightmare of keeping all the diffrent platforms in the air!! but now i get we have got the idea finally and believe in chinese planes followed by western mainly American planes!!! i saw want us to get the GRIPPEN it is so easy to maintain and servicebilty!!

 

[mean_bird]

We consider F-16 greater fighter as compare to latest Su MKI in 2009, so for 1980's, it was good choice to buy F-16!! And for further modernising the fleet i think PAF should have to get license for production of J-10b in PAC kamra, that will be graeat!!

I am not sure of the "we" you are referring to but I don't think many will agree with you on this point.

F-16 was and is a great fighter...an innovative design of its age. The fact that it can still perform so good against some of the top most modern aircrafts is still commendable but to say its better would be an overstatement. Not to talk of the fact that F-16 and Su-30 belong to different class of fighters...one is a light fighter and the other a heavy fighter.

 

[MastanKhan]

well we bought F-16s and shot down Russian fighters with them...and the only reason we didn't diversify is cuz we had 2 problems firstly lack of funds and secondly logistical nightmare of keeping all the diffrent platforms in the air!! but now i get we have got the idea finally and believe in chinese planes followed by western mainly American planes!!! i saw want us to get the GRIPPEN it is so easy to maintain and servicebilty!!

Hello ZOB,

Yes indeed---but they were some third rate russian fighters and bombers and cargo planes----those russian planes had obsolete radars in them---did't even know when they got shot down by the F 16's---it was like shooting ducks in a gallery.

 

[wave69]

The problem with PAF is that it has developed one sided love affair with American Jets,going back as far as 1956.. sabres remember..this prefernce has done nothing except bringing in more problems, headaches, migraines,etc !! going back to this original question F-16 vs Mirages in 1980s, the Pak govt and PAF made an error in chosing F-16, you know the reason why ?? They completly failed to understand the grand plan the american were cooking for them. The current situation is no diffrence i would give this love affair another 3-5 years, then ???? As it was said once in Rome== Not you again Brutus !!!!!!