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Should Buddhas Blasted by the Taliban Be Rebuilt?

Fighting for the sake of fighting is really stupid.

You must know when to fight. You must also know when it is advantageous to fight and when it isn't.

Afghanistan would have done far better if they had let the Brits rule them for a while and learn something from them. Perhaps learn enough to finally overthrow them.

Indeed, and end up like India ;) I'd have taken the Afghan way :whistle:

I don't think it's fighting for the sake of fighting anyway. It's fighting for independence. That is something all countries would do. Well, alright, except India from what I know of history.
 
I'd disagree. The Afghans have always fought against interference in Afghanistan. It just so happens it's an important bit of land. One can blame the Indians for letting in foreign powers rule them though. The Afghans I don't think so, because they always fought back (not including the Tajiks and Uzbeks in this).

Unfortunately this history is shared by the present Pakistanis too. You seem to forget that too conveniently. Pakistan and Afghanistan have always been the gateway to the invasions of India since ancient times. You yourself proudly claim so much foreign influence in Pakistan: from Greeks to Persians to Afghans to Arabs! Its difficult to deal with so much inconsistency.

The Afghans have interfered in other's affairs when they could and others have done so in Afghanistan when they could. Why complain?

Of course the world has seen their fighting back (?) in 2001. When the chiefs (along with their families and clans) were being bought and sold for few pieces of silver by the USA! The same was done by the "brave" Taliban earlier if you chose to remember.

Even now their "fighting back" is unique in that it kills more fellow Afghans in suicide bombings and in girl schools than the foreigners!

Is your knowledge of Afghanistan this thin? You have never heard of the Great Game? More than centuries old.

Don't worry about my knowledge. The great game was on all this time and Afghanistan was doing fine. The country became a rabble only during and after the Soviet war. The Kabul city and much of the countryside was destroyed by the warlords after the Soviet pullout (with Pakistan's support?). The bandit rule is also a legacy of the "Mujahideen" not the great game. So let's put the blame where it belongs and not all over the place.

I don't agree with that at all. Firstly, there are no Afghans in Northern India. The Pashtuns in India have become fully dravidianized. Secondly, there have been isolated incidents of Afghans (perhaps even they were Tajiks) causing suicide bombs in Pakistan. Drugs is the other thing people refer to. Again, Afghans turn to drugs because they have no other income. They have no income due to constant warfare, much of which isn't their own fault.

Don't tell me you didn't get what I meant here! It was so obvious that I did not talk about the Afghans in present India. It was about the various bandit raids that the Afghans conducted in Pakistani and North Indian regions and the various genocides indulged by them (Two million by Mahmud Gazhani alone mainly in Pakistani areas and also North India).

And don't get me started about this Aryan/Dravidian stuff. You have nothing to do with being "Aryan". Show me even one Islamic or Pashtun writing which even mentions the word. If you don't find it, accept what you are. Most likely a lost Jewish tribe?

Don't try to steal Indian scriptures and terms! It is an Indian legacy, not yours.

And the reasoning for the Afghans turning into drug runners is again pathetic. Not all poor turn into criminals. Only the criminally inclined do so. The main people running the drug business are anything but poor. Drug business fetches good money.

I agree that many Afghans are a victim of circumstances and deserve to be helped. Much of the warfare though has been caused by Afghani warlords themselves if not ordinary Afghans.

Which is worse? Indian soldiers shooting dead thousands of innocent Kashmiri families, or blowing up a pair of Buddha statues? If I could bring one back but not the other, I'd not be choosing the Buddhas that's for sure. It just shows how much Indians like you value human life, especially when it's Kashmiri :tdown:

Blah and more blah! You are the first one to deny or justify the Bangladesh genocide. The events in Kashmir are not even a drop in the ocean compared to them. And they are mostly caused by the "militants" coming in from across the borders, many of them Afghnas.
 
Indeed, and end up like India ;) I'd have taken the Afghan way :whistle:

I don't think it's fighting for the sake of fighting anyway. It's fighting for independence. That is something all countries would do. Well, alright, except India from what I know of history.

And of course that includes Pakistan!

You seem to care more for Afghanistan though for some reason. Though only on the forums!

If you are so concerned about Afghans, why not go there and do some good social work. Why is has been left to the west and the Indians to build the physical and social infrastructure?

For all practical purposes, only the Christian west is doing any kind of social work, the cheerleader (from the sidelines) only abet destruction (and more destruction).

Doing something constructive while being physically there is far more preferable imho.
 
Indeed, and end up like India ;) I'd have taken the Afghan way :whistle:

I don't think it's fighting for the sake of fighting anyway. It's fighting for independence. That is something all countries would do. Well, alright, except India from what I know of history.

You forgot Pakistan, and, um, Afghanistan, and Iran and Iraq and China and Russia and Japan and England and Greece and Turkey and France and Germany and Italy and Poland and Austria...and most other areas inhabited by humans which have come in contact with other humans.
Yeah, they were all ruled by foreign rulers at some point of time in their history. Get over it.

Afghanistan is a rather sad country. If their only consolation is that they remained "independent" throughout their history, (which they haven't btw) then I guess let them live with that false consolation.

And if it takes a pre-medieval self-destructive ideology that reduces everything to rubble except a generous cache of AK-47s, then no thanks. I'd rather live in Hong Kong under the Brits.
 
Unfortunately this history is shared by the present Pakistanis too. You seem to forget that too conveniently. Pakistan and Afghanistan have always been the gateway to the invasions of India since ancient times. You yourself proudly claim so much foreign influence in Pakistan: from Greeks to Persians to Afghans to Arabs! Its difficult to deal with so much inconsistency.

Inconsistent, yes, in the sense you don't seem able to state any facts about what I've said, plus you get in a muddle constantly.

1) Colonialism spread through the subcontinent because Eastern Indians helped take over central India and Western India by joining colonial forces. Parts of Pakistan were also occupied due to this fact. However, other parts were not. Two different histories in fact.

2) Some Greek influence, less Persian influence, even less Arab influence, and Afghans always have been a part of Pakistan. Completely different to what you've said really.

The Afghans have interfered in other's affairs when they could and others have done so in Afghanistan when they could. Why complain?

Afghanistan is at an important route in central asia. It always has been, which is why it's been under the eyes of superpowers.

Whilst it's possibly true that Afghan kings would have interfered in the affairs of other countries, if they could have, the fact is they've never been strong enough to do so much of the time. At least compared to the successive superpower strengths that have invaded their country over time. it's a bit one-sided.

Of course the world has seen their fighting back (?) in 2001. When the chiefs (along with their families and clans) were being bought and sold for few pieces of silver by the USA! The same was done by the "brave" Taliban earlier if you chose to remember.

Sounds like Afghan-Tajiks you're referring to here. I agree with that in fact.

Even now their "fighting back" is unique in that it kills more fellow Afghans in suicide bombings and in girl schools than the foreigners!

Another piece of lacklustre brain power from you indeed. Never heard of "collateral damage" it would seem. Hundreds of people are killed in some airstrikes in Iraq or Afghanistan, and innocent people are also killed by suicide bombings. One cannot differentiate the two as you're doing.

Don't worry about my knowledge. The great game was on all this time and Afghanistan was doing fine. The country became a rabble only during and after the Soviet war. The Kabul city and much of the countryside was destroyed by the warlords after the Soviet pullout (with Pakistan's support?). The bandit rule is also a legacy of the "Mujahideen" not the great game. So let's put the blame where it belongs and not all over the place.

Indeed, soon as the third anglo afghan war was over, everyone just left the place, and the economy recovered overnight in a flash. Actually things had improved following this quite dramatically. Yep, it was all due to tohe Soviets of course. :disagree:

Truth is that Afghanistan improved considerably when left on its own. Women were granted full voting rights in 1965 when countries like Switzerland had not granted it to them. This is what happens when a country is not interfered with by warfare. So, again, you're incorrect. The country was a "rabble" in the early 1920s, improved some decades, then plunged into war again after it improved.

Pakistan did not support anyone after the Soviets left, as you seem to imply. Not sure what bandit rule is either, though you seem to be implying it's the Mujahideen. This is where it gets really tedious talking to you due to the Bharat-Rhaksha type ignorance you come out with. Typical Hindu fanatic. The Mujahideen were responsible for the chaos that followed the Soviet withdrawal, but had the Soviets not invaded, the Wahhabist ideology of the Mujahideen would not have been created. Then there would have been no Mujahideen. You see what interference does?

Don't tell me you didn't get what I meant here! It was so obvious that I did not talk about the Afghans in present India. It was about the various bandit raids that the Afghans conducted in Pakistani and North Indian regions and the various genocides indulged by them (Two million by Mahmud Gazhani alone mainly in Pakistani areas and also North India).

And Mahmud Ghazni was firstly not an Afghan, he was Turkish (I bet they didn't teach you that at Bharat Rhaksha). Secondly, Ghanzi's top commander was Sombay Rai, a Hindu who carried out most of his conquests. The figure of 2 million sounds wrong also. I doubt there was a very good record keeping system of war dead in the 10th century. Just more wind blowing over from you fundamentalist household.

And don't get me started about this Aryan/Dravidian stuff. You have nothing to do with being "Aryan". Show me even one Islamic or Pashtun writing which even mentions the word. If you don't find it, accept what you are. Most likely a lost Jewish tribe?

These aren't Aryans (which are a group of people in history):

52c5eff4bc07a18cccf28fdf25e408b2.jpg


Look, it's all in the Avesta and other books. It's in map, Aria was centred on Afghanistan. It's even got some mention in Birtannica.
Aria -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

And here's one for Gandhara
http://www.mythinglinks.org/Map~Parthia~c~R50Dinkd~TLPersians.jpg

It's widely accepted that rig vedic scriptures were written in pakistan too.

Modern day India only got a flow of culture from Pakistan, which they adopted and converted into Hinduism.

Don't try to steal Indian scriptures and terms! It is an Indian legacy, not yours.

If only Indians would stop stealing stuff. Even the name India comes from Pakistan originally. Saptha Sindhu, gets converted into Indus, as everyone knows the Indus River is located in Pakistan, and India comes from the Indus name.

And the reasoning for the Afghans turning into drug runners is again pathetic. Not all poor turn into criminals. Only the criminally inclined do so. The main people running the drug business are anything but poor. Drug business fetches good money.

Could be, or the other reality is that the poor grow the opium and sell them to rich dealers. Stop getting so emotional over this. It doesn't make you anymore credible.

I agree that many Afghans are a victim of circumstances and deserve to be helped. Much of the warfare though has been caused by Afghani warlords themselves if not ordinary Afghans.

I would agree that 1989-1994 was the Afghans own fault, though the other invasions couldn't be ascribed to them. Even the 1989-1994 war, one could argue is not their fault, since if the Soviets had not invaded there would be no Mujahideen, or if the madrassas were not funded, there would also have been no Mujahideen. The Mujahideen ideology is a foreign ideology anyway, specially created for Afghanistan.

Blah and more blah! You are the first one to deny or justify the Bangladesh genocide. The events in Kashmir are not even a drop in the ocean compared to them. And they are mostly caused by the "militants" coming in from across the borders, many of them Afghnas.

Bangldesh's "genocide" has been denied by even the Bangladeshi ambassador himself. A Shamshad someone or other. It was officially disproved at a US conference of historians given by Bose, where even the Bangladeshis admitted it was not a genocide. The only people in the world that try and perpetuate this myth are Indians and Bangladeshis. Well, good luck!

Kashmiri militants are also not Afghani. The Indian government acknowledges them to be Kashmiri outfits, Hizb.
 
You forgot Pakistan, and, um, Afghanistan, and Iran and Iraq and China and Russia and Japan and England and Greece and Turkey and France and Germany and Italy and Poland and Austria...and most other areas inhabited by humans which have come in contact with other humans.
Yeah, they were all ruled by foreign rulers at some point of time in their history. Get over it.

How may times in recent history (say the last hundred years) were they invaded by superpowers of the time?

Afghanistan must be 3, the others at most once. So one can explain Afghanistan's position away by such interference.

Afghanistan is a rather sad country. If their only consolation is that they remained "independent" throughout their history, (which they haven't btw) then I guess let them live with that false consolation.

Depends on ones ideology. To some it's important, to others it's not. Some people will always fight back, like the French resistance during WW2, the Russians at Stalingrad. the Vietnamese during the Vietnam War, the Americans during Pearl Harbour, and so on.

I think India is the only one that regularly bends over for invading forces.

And if it takes a pre-medieval self-destructive ideology that reduces everything to rubble except a generous cache of AK-47s, then no thanks. I'd rather live in Hong Kong under the Brits.

Ideologically, independence is never destructive. Taking one example of colonial governance and comparing to an extreme case of independence gone wrong, also isn't quite a fair comparison. but then, you've never been good at them.
 
The conversation is drifting.

I feel the statues should not be re built till the locals themselves either want it or do it themselves. When they do , help can be made available by the international community should the locals ( read Afghan Govt ) want it . By destroying the statues, the Talibs ( and those in this forum who oppose the reconstruction ) have shown their intolerance & the fact that how uncomfortable they are with History.

In fact the hollow shell that now stands speaks more than what a re built statue will.
 
How may times in recent history (say the last hundred years) were they invaded by superpowers of the time?

Afghanistan must be 3, the others at most once. So one can explain Afghanistan's position away by such interference.

The reason why Afghanistan keeps getting invaded is because they are a weak country.
They are a weak country because their society consists of a bunch of warlike tribes who fight each other over rubble.

They need to stop fighting and start thinking if they want to become an independent nation.

Depends on ones ideology. To some it's important, to others it's not. Some people will always fight back, like the French resistance during WW2, the Russians at Stalingrad. the Vietnamese during the Vietnam War, the Americans during Pearl Harbour, and so on.

Please, don't compare the Vietnamese with the Afghans. The Vietnamese recovered after the war, stopped fighting, and rebuilt their country.
The Afghans simply kept on fighting.

I think India is the only one that regularly bends over for invading forces.

Really? Aren't you forgetting some thing...um... Pakistan?

I see that you often rather conveniently overlook facts in order to feed your own ego and somehow prove that Indians are inferior people.

Its a rather sad attempt, RR, and, it ain't working.

Ideologically, independence is never destructive. Taking one example of colonial governance and comparing to an extreme case of independence gone wrong, also isn't quite a fair comparison. but then, you've never been good at them.

I'm not comparing the two in the sense that you are trying to misconstrue here.

What I'm saying, is that the people of Hong Kong have done a far better job under colonial rule (and perhaps even prospered because of it, because of the transfer of ideas and institutions from Britain to HK).

On the other hand, the Afghans seem incapable of institution building by themselves, and they won't even let foreigners do it.

I can understand your desperate attempts to lend some dignity to the Afghan "struggles for independence", which are mainly rather undignified tribal warfare, and bask in their reflected glory.
Perhaps you consider yourself close to Afghans by ethnicity, or perhaps its your own "Aryan race" ego that's playing up here.

Whatever your motives are for this bellicose and pugnacious attitude, they are quite transparent.
 
Indeed, and end up like India ;) I'd have taken the Afghan way :whistle:

I don't think it's fighting for the sake of fighting anyway. It's fighting for independence. That is something all countries would do. Well, alright, except India from what I know of history.

Yeah, India was under the Brits (along with Pakistan as you rather conveniently forget), and yeah we learnt some stuff from them.

I'm not ashamed to admit it.

You learn only when you stuff your ego under the back of your heels.

Pride comes before the fall.
 
The reason why Afghanistan keeps getting invaded is because they are a weak country.
They are a weak country because their society consists of a bunch of warlike tribes who fight each other over rubble.

A weak country indeed that's defeated several superpowers. The infighting does occur though, as it's an artificial country.

They need to stop fighting and start thinking if they want to become an independent nation.

I'd disagree that would be independence. Independence is when you are able to maintain your culture, laws, rules etc. Not be governed or dictated to by the foreign powers.

Please, don't compare the Vietnamese with the Afghans. The Vietnamese recovered after the war, stopped fighting, and rebuilt their country.
The Afghans simply kept on fighting.

This isn't correct. The South Vietnamese continued fighting the North Vietnamese after the American withdrawal. In the end the North overpowered them.

In Afghanistan, there was a power vacuum. Each Mujahideen group wanting power. Just as the North won in Vietnam, the Taliban won by 1995 in Afghanistan.

Really? Aren't you forgetting some thing...um... Pakistan?

I see that you often rather conveniently overlook facts in order to feed your own ego and somehow prove that Indians are inferior people.

Its a rather sad attempt, RR, and, it ain't working.

I'll admit I can be wrong, so prove I'm wrong with facts and links, else how else am I supposed to know? Afaik, Pakistan has been difficult to pass. One example was Alexander when he took his army and planned to march into India, he only got as far as Pakistan before turning back. In fact wasnt the arrow that killed him from there? The British did not conquer all of Pakistan. The Huns might have though. But generally it was through force.

I'm not comparing the two in the sense that you are trying to misconstrue here.

What I'm saying, is that the people of Hong Kong have done a far better job under colonial rule (and perhaps even prospered because of it, because of the transfer of ideas and institutions from Britain to HK).

Indeed, you would believe colonial rule to be a beneficial form of charity for the colonized.

HK was only successful because of its location and population close to China that enabled a lot of trade to spread over a very small area. The sort of thinking that colonization is actually a good thing, is amazingly dense, and sycophantic, and perhaps is an illustration of why you needed Russian technology for all the important bits of the space program. Cultures exist and evolve into their own societies. And HK just had an extremely hard working and talented base in manufacturing, that allowed access to East Asian markets. To say they would not have done the same without colonialism, given China's massive growth, is pretty silly.

On the other hand, the Afghans seem incapable of institution building by themselves, and they won't even let foreigners do it.

Institutions come when stability is there. And the only period in recent history when Afghanistan had stability was between 1950 - 1973. A couple of decades of stability isn't enough, but progress was made.

I can understand your desperate attempts to lend some dignity to the Afghan "struggles for independence", which are mainly rather undignified tribal warfare, and bask in their reflected glory.
Perhaps you consider yourself close to Afghans by ethnicity, or perhaps its your own "Aryan race" ego that's playing up here.

Whatever your motives are for this bellicose and pugnacious attitude, they are quite transparent.

LOL. So, if someone presents facts and argues you into a hole you can't seem to get out of, they must have a "bellicose" and "pugnacious" attitude! Right-ee-oh, perhaps we should accept all that you say, for example, love of colonial rule and being colonized :rofl:

How are the Afghan struggles for independence undignified btw? I find your attempts at justifying colonization to be more desperate and undignified than anything I've mentioned. I do agree on tribal warfare being a bit silly, though it's not very common, but independence is undignified..Explain that one :pop:
 
Yeah, India was under the Brits (along with Pakistan as you rather conveniently forget), and yeah we learnt some stuff from them.

I'm not ashamed to admit it.

You learn only when you stuff your ego under the back of your heels.

Pride comes before the fall.

LOL. Typical Indian mindset. Why you always got to lick the rear of a colonial power, or appease them in some way?

Look, it's as someone described before. Why is it that, when someone cuts your arms off, then your legs, and then stabs you several times, but then gives you some glasses so you can see better, you'd lap it up with your tongue dragging along the ground, and say "thank you thank you, I learnt something new, thank you for your technology".Very easy to sudbue and conquer people like this.
 
LOL. Typical Indian mindset. Why you always got to lick the rear of a colonial power, or appease them in some way?

Look, it's as someone described before. Why is it that, when someone cuts your arms off, then your legs, and then stabs you several times, but then gives you some glasses so you can see better, you'd lap it up with your tongue dragging along the ground, and say "thank you thank you, I learnt something new, thank you for your technology".Very easy to sudbue and conquer people like this.

Alright, I've had enough of your flame-baits.

Its not about licking anyone's arse, its about surviving to fight another day.

Afghanistan has destroyed itself in its quest to keep out enemies.

As far as the "typical Indian mindset" is concerned, please do consider the facts as to which country is currently licking a colonial power's arse.
 
Alright, I've had enough of your flame-baits.

Its not about licking anyone's arse, its about surviving to fight another day.

Afghanistan has destroyed itself in its quest to keep out enemies.

I actually don't disagree. But it is better to destroy itself and go down fighting, than to destroy itself by "licking arse" as you put it. Remember when India was colonized, it was just that, a poor, backward, decrepid country. It would have been more dignified to have gone out fighting, than trying to "learn" from colonization, as you put it :rofl:

As far as the "typical Indian mindset" is concerned, please do consider the facts as to which country is currently licking a colonial power's arse.

Afaik, the Tajiks and Uzbeks are licking *** along with Karzai. Most of the Pashtun population is not licking anything and appears to be against any foreign intervention (though I wish they'd get rid of the Arabs and Uzbeks too, though these people aren't ruling there).

Have you now changed your stance away from wanting to be colonized btw?
 
I actually don't disagree. But it is better to destroy itself and go down fighting, than to destroy itself by "licking arse" as you put it.

No. "Licking arse" is how you put it.

Going down fighting is very heroic thing to do if you are a soldier.

Its a rather irresponsible thing to do when you are a country of millions.

Remember when India was colonized, it was just that, a poor, backward, decrepid country. It would have been more dignified to have gone out fighting, than trying to "learn" from colonization, as you put it :rofl:

I hate to mention it, but so was Pakistan.

Yes we were a backward country, and still are, but I'm glad to say that we did learn some tricks from the Brits and used them to win our own independence.

What's more, we learnt our lesson and decided to unite the country from top to bottom so that we are never colonized again.

I'm shocked at your attitude of not learning anything from your conquerers.
With your attitude, Afghanistan is doomed to be at the mercy of the next power.

Afaik, the Tajiks and Uzbeks are licking *** along with Karzai. Most of the Pashtun population is not licking anything and appears to be against any foreign intervention (though I wish they'd get rid of the Arabs and Uzbeks too, though these people aren't ruling there).
No, Karzai is doing the best he can for his people, if his intentions are good.

"Licking Arse" currently applies to Pakistan.
 
No. "Licking arse" is how you put it.

Going down fighting is very heroic thing to do if you are a soldier.

Its a rather irresponsible thing to do when you are a country of millions.

Not sure I get your counter argument. It is better to destroy yourself and go down fighting, than to destroy yourself by allowing yourself to be colonized. Had the Indians fought off the all the colonizers, the Portuguese, the British, the Dutch, the French, in the middle of the 17th century, and defeated them by the 18th century, they would have been in a much more evolved position than today.

I don't get your comment about it being irresponsible if you're a country of millions.

I hate to mention it, but so was Pakistan.

Pakistan was not conquered at all. The Western half was given autonomy. The Eastern half was the last place of India to be occupied, that only after the British Indian Army had been fully formed.

Yes we were a backward country, and still are, but I'm glad to say that we did learn some tricks from the Brits and used them to win our own independence.

Such as what? And can you not be creative enough to think of anything by yourself?

As i said, when someone cuts your arm and legs off, then gives you spectacles to see better, why do you thank them for this little reward in technology for you to learn off? Answer this, don't avoid it, as I'm curious as to your answer.

What's more, we learnt our lesson and decided to unite the country from top to bottom so that we are never colonized again.

India has been conquered throughout history. Why should now be any different? nuclear weapons? I doubt it. India wouldn't launch them knowing a country could launch them back. It's quite possible for it to happen again. A country united by nothing more than nationality with many competing ideologies and ethnic groups suffering discrimination is going to find it difficult to remain united. India has never been united until recently, so why is now any different?

I'm shocked at your attitude of not learning anything from your conquerers.
With your attitude, Afghanistan is doomed to be at the mercy of the next power.

Not sure I follow. What attitude?

No, Karzai is doing the best he can for his people, if his intentions are good.

"Licking Arse" currently applies to Pakistan.

Alright, the Pakistani leadership to an extent have done that. Not so the people though. I would say NS and BB have tried cutting a lot of deals.
 
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