Shooting Down the First Soviet Su-25

[VCheng]

.............. the PAF of the 80s ............

Does it exist anymore?

 

[blain2]

I think there is a need for our leadership, civilian and military, to come out and pick a side. The problem in any arguments presented comes down to the lack of real direction from the leadership. On one hand, America is allowed complete access over Pakistani airspace, and on the other, the Pakistani government cries foul every time a bomb falls on our side of the border. There are obvious vested interests for people in the government to support the Americans in the form billions of dollars of "aid", requiring little accountability.
Though, I personally won't question the accomplishments of the PAF...it is very valid to question the effectiveness of an air force that uses up billions of dollars, that a nation such as Pakistan can use for many other endeavors. If we are going to allow such a massive chunk of our money to be used for one purpose, one must be allowed to question its preparedness to fight a war. WOT and Kargil before it, saw a complete absence of PAF and it has eroded the legendary image the institution has carefully constructed over 50 years. No matter what happened on land and sea, Pakistanis could always rely on the PAF to make us proud...naturally with the high praise, comes deep disappointment, when that same institution, held on a pedestal, fails.
Once again, I will argue, the issue is with the leadership behind it. The PAF's role is actively limited to prevent an escalation in hostilities...but for the common man, that begs the question, what is the point of having an air force, if it hasn't even defended Pakistani airspace. What is the reason then? Is our air force completely incompetent? Or is our leadership plainly holding it back? If that's the case, will these same limitations not crop up every time we fight a "limited war"?

Committing the PAF is a huge escalation. Once you use our air force, do you think the other side will continue to fly helis in response?

Our armed forces are funded to maintain a deterrence level proportionate to their threat perception, which emanates from India. We do not have our armed forces funded or equipped to take on the US/ISAF/NATO combined which is what we would be subjected to if we induct our air force.

I can guarantee 200% that if such action had been taken by the Indians on our side of the border, regardless of losses, we would have hit them back hard using the very same Air force being talked about.

We spend $4B annually on the upkeep of our armed forces, the ISAF spends a little less each month on their upkeep in Afghanistan.

During Kargil too, inducting the PAF would have meant them going across the LoC which would have unleashed a full fledged war. That is not where the country wants to go. You want to derive the maximum mileage out of the situation without having to use force.

If you or anyone wants this PAF to take on the US/ISAF, then equip them appropriately too. There is no lack of resolve to go up against anyone, but a soldier/pilot deserves to the be equipped to cater to the threat as well.

 

[blain2]

Does it exist anymore?

Well that is all that he would be able to comment on as he himself retired in the 80s. But his experience is very much in context of the topic of this thread.

 

[blain2]

Hi,

But then this is the same air force who's high ranking officers should have been charged with high treason and hanged----regarding the missile attack on pakistani naval base in 1971---by not acting on the available information and letting the navy take it up the ---------.

Mistakes were indeed made, however this is not unique to Pakistan only. In all wars, both sides have been known to make mistakes. Nobody runs a perfect campaign and the smaller side has a smaller margin of error and a greater impact from the mistakes they make.

 

[Pfpilot]

Committing the PAF is a huge escalation. Once you use our air force, do you think the other side will continue to fly helis in response?

Our armed forces are funded to maintain a deterrence level proportionate to their threat perception, which emanates from India. We do not have our armed forces funded or equipped to take on the US/ISAF/NATO combined which is what we would be subjected to if we induct our air force.

I can guarantee 200% that if such action had been taken by the Indians on our side of the border, regardless of losses, we would have hit them back hard using the very same Air force being talked about.

We spend $4B annually on the upkeep of our armed forces, the ISAF spends a little less each month on their upkeep in Afghanistan.

During Kargil too, inducting the PAF would have meant them going across the LoC which would have unleashed a full fledged war. That is not where the country wants to go. You want to derive the maximum mileage out of the situation without having to use force.

If you or anyone wants this PAF to take on the US/ISAF, then equip them appropriately too. There is no lack of resolve to go up against anyone, but a soldier/pilot deserves to the be equipped to cater to the threat as well.

I agree with you on many points, but I was just saying there is a massive disconnect between the common man and the leadership. Zardari and Kayani act like they are against these strikes, but then allow them virtually free of cost. The Air force is there to protect the nation, while you and me may agree nothing can be gained by questioning American air superiority...one cannot expect the vast masses, who have no interest in military affairs or no knowledge of the true might of the US, to understand this point. What most people see, is an air force with nice shiny toys and no interest in making use of them...it has put a damper on what was a legendary force in eyes of the Pakistani public...it now comes accross as another corrupt and inefficient institution. That is also why I brought up Kargil, the lack of PAF involvement was understandable, but that is not what is perceived by the masses...and that's why I feel it is fair for them to question the current state of PAF...doesn't make them right, just gives them reason to do so.

 

[blain2]

Good point and that actually is something that the Americans also need to understand. If this was a provocation, then they need to realize that by continuing to embarrass the Pakistani government and armed forces, they are actually strengthening the hands of the right who would essentially drum out the existing cast when the time is right and form an ever more anti-American government.

By provoking and attacking our troops, partly in frustration due to the stalemate that exists in Afghanistan, they may win tactically, but over the long run, Pakistan won't give in to such pressures and those with whom the Americans deal with and are now embarrassing, are bound to lose out to a more anti-American government in the future.

The above is not scare mongering about Pakistan turning too anti-American, its just the fact. The more such attacks happen, the more the calls from the right to harden stances and less room for dialogue and cordial (I am not suggesting good as that would take a long time even if the attacks stop now, which they probably won't) relations.

 

[VCheng]

What a thoughtful discussion by both of you! My compliments to Pfpilot and Blain2.

I only wish there were more like you (and that is another compliment!)

 

[Pfpilot]

Good point and that actually is something that the Americans also need to understand. If this was a provocation, then they need to realize that by continuing to embarrass the Pakistani government and armed forces, they are actually strengthening the hands of the right who would essentially drum out the existing cast when the time is right and form an ever more anti-American government.

By provoking and attacking our troops, partly in frustration due to the stalemate that exists in Afghanistan, they may win tactically, but over the long run, Pakistan won't give in to such pressures and those with whom the Americans deal with and are now embarrassing, are bound to lose out to a more anti-American government in the future.

The above is not scare mongering about Pakistan turning too anti-American, its just the fact. The more such attacks happen, the more the calls from the right to harden stances and less room for dialogue and cordial (I am not suggesting good as that would take a long time even if the attacks stop now, which they probably won't).

There in lies the problem for modern day America. As the preeminent power in the world, it has to answer to no one. This creates a certain recklessness or a very short term view point of global politics. The US have, in the past as well, alienated entire nations due to the inability to grasp the long term ramifications of it's actions.
The damage that has already been done is far more visible today than past American deception due to the advent of internet and the information age. The Pakistani psyche has been crushed to the point that the common Pakistani will see America as nothing short of an enemy. It is sad result, because for all their faults, the Americans have much to offer in terms of tech and general efficiency and have been the most giving nation in our times of genuine need in the form disaster aid...which I value far more than fighter planes.
Allow for the shortcomings of the Americans, we must also not let the Zardaris and the Kayanis of this nation off the hook. The US-Pak problems have as much to do with wayward American foreign policy, as they do with our leaders playing both sides for their own gain. We accept these leaders to be so corrupt that we almost let them get away with their actions. It's much like a murderer being let off for to insanity....yet, corruption and deception isn't a disease, but a criminal act and has been used to full affect by our government to sway opinion against the US and more importantly, painted us as some sort of victim nation. There is no dignity in that...if we are mere victims, then this nation has reached its lowest point.

 

[VCheng]

..........................
Allow for the shortcomings of the Americans, we must also not let the Zardaris and the Kayanis of this nation off the hook. The US-Pak problems have as much to do with wayward American foreign policy, as they do with our leaders playing both sides for their own gain. We accept these leaders to be so corrupt that we almost let them get away with their actions. It's much like a murderer being let off for to insanity....yet, corruption and deception isn't a disease, but a criminal act and has been used to full affect by our government to sway opinion against the US and more importantly, painted us as some sort of victim nation. There is no dignity in that...if we are mere victims, then this nation has reached its lowest point.

Absolutely correct, blunt assessment.

 

[MastanKhan]

Neither. What I have posted in factual, devoid of any hyperbole or exaggeration. All air arms face problems. Ours in not blessed with infinite funding and has to make do with what is at its disposal and with that it does a commendable job.

There is a difference in bragging and being confident about our capabilities. I know that many fans go to extremes, but when we were shooting down the Soviet aircraft, General Dynamics folks were pretty happy with our score. It did a great job for their marketing.

If you get a chance, get on F-16.net and look up a gentleman by the name of "Gums" (a USAF F-16 pilot) and ask him his opinion of the PAF of the 80s that he trained with. I suggest this because quoting names of Pakistani pilots and officers won't convince you that PAF indeed did a pretty good job of the difficult situation we were in.

I have seen enough on the inside to not sugarcoat anything. We have our problems for sure, but we focus on things that are within our control, i.e. training, and we do a pretty good job of it. Certainly better than most others out there but not everyone.

Blain,

you are blind to what you want to read and understand---I don't need to read other peoples assessments---I lived 5 miles from Hill AFB in the early 80's---the largest F 16 air base in the world possibly in the 80's---I met pak officers first hand and read the articles about their calibre---parked on the south side of the base----I have seen F 16's go vertical after take off and disapear out of sight---vertical means 90 deg-----not the 70 degt.

You have a selective hearing----. Yes all the air forces of the world have problems---and now your sob story comes out for paf as well---if all air forces have problems then why does the paf brag about their machismo all the time---why then not to be realistic.

Blain----before the killing of OBL---you guys had your field day---now all of you have been proven wrong about your assessments of your defence forces---pak air force is nothing at this time---.

It is a bull crap about the mirages and F 6's that you posted----you people brag about paf have a 10 foot long----you talk about man behind the machine all the time---what happened with the man durin the afghan war---mirage was a superior fighter interceptor of its time---what did it have against it that it could not catch---only the mig 23 was able to get away due to its speed---rest were vilnerable---no suddenly the afghan pilots were more experienced than pak piltos---the russians were more superior to pak pilots---what happened to alkl that strutting around about the pak pilots---a gift from gods after the HALWA & PURI----you saying the pak air force couldnot take down su25's and other transport planes---that is total hogwash---.

Blain---you are arguing uselessly with me as usual----stop protecting this millitary----they have failed miserably---their strategy has fallen back on their faces and they are being cruushed by its weight---.

You guys talk about the govt not giving permission to pak air force to take out american assets---buddy---that is the only face saving paf has to date----other wise the americans would give such a thrashing to paf that they will remember it for the next thousand years---.

You people have your family members in millitary and you guys think that you know it all---it is all make belief---pakistan air force as of this day under the current scenario is a fake air force---it has no teeth at all---this man behind the machine----lower RCS----all this bull crap----we can shoot the drones give us permission----we will take out the american assets----it's all blowing into the wind----.


ASbout your comments regarding the treasenous act of PAF air marshall in 1971---and those gutless characterless subordinate officers who stood there and did nothing to take out the indian missile boats---you say that was in error--a small mistake---maybe you are one of them---.

anmyone who wants to know about that affair---please say so---and I will write about it----.

Here is the same air force---who's air chief marshall was a traitor---he called up the ACM of iaf and tells him---if your air force don't attack my country---my air force will not attack your country----amazing act of treason by pak air force chief---that was before the 65 war---.

 

[Shabz Nist]

a treasenous act of PAF air marshall in 1971---and those gutless characterless subordinate officers who stood there and did nothing to take out the indian missile boats---you say that was in error--a small mistake---maybe you are one of them---.

anmyone who wants to know about that affair---please say so---and I will write about it----.

Sir, if its not too much trouble, would you mind giving us a link or write up of this "treachery" ? I am very interested in war stories/histories...especially the '71 war.

 

[MastanKhan]

PFpilot,

It is too late now---now you are at the mercy of the americans---you had your time---10 years ago---5 years ago---7 years ago---a day before the americans killed OBL----now pakistan got nothing---not even hot air to blow with---.

Remember how you people bragged about your capabilities that we are not iraqi air force---our army is not iraqi army---and I told you guys---america fights a different kind of war with different armies----its reaction has a force multiplier effect---which means it strikes at the enemy with a proportional force that it seems fit to act---.

The force that the americans used against iraq---it will be different against pakistan---iraq was given time to breath---pakistan won't have that time at all----.

It was not the americans who deceived persay---it was the pakistani millitary and the pakistani public who deceived themselves for the last 10 years----they lied to themselves through all these years till the death of OBL---and now they are crying crocodile tears---.

Paks have a habbit of remembering good times when they are gone---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, if its not too much trouble, would you mind giving us a link or write up of this "treachery" ? I am very interested in war stories/histories...especially the '71 war.

Hi,

What happened was that a PIA flight was coming in from middle east----the pilot observed a naval ship wuith missile boats in tow---he supposedly radioed in his oberservation----the observation was relayed to PAF---it got to the air force chief---he stated let the navy handle its own issues---.

The missile boats came in unchecked and took out the pak navy vessels---resulting in the death of 500 or 1400 navy men.

One simple fly by and a few straffing runs would have made the difference.

When the army asked to go the extra yard during the tank incursion---they refused---oh we don't have assets available---even the great Muradk over here stated that same---there was no---I CAN DO ATTITUDE I CAN GO THE EXTRA YARD ATTITUDE FOR MY BROTGHER EVERYTHING ATTITUDE shown by the paf----only self agrandisement most of the time----they were great at fighting their own battles---most of the time----but then their screw up are of royal standing as well on those parts.

When the air marshall was confronted---he is quoted as saying ' it happens old boy '----.

The air force were character less men---their was no camaradrie amongst the force---. Paf had the habbit of saying---oh we have inter services jealousy----scr-ew your inter services jealousy----they wanted to act like the americans and british who have used these terms in the past---but these pak fools did not realize that the jealousy was only in the playing field and not in the battlefield---.

The tragedy is that all this paklistani machismo that you see on this board---all this blood curdling stuff that these boys write---none of their fathers and grand fathers had the courage to pull out his service weapon and execute the traitor right opn spot---and this current generation does not even---.

PAf was living in extreme arrogance at that time---up in the heavens---there was the GOD---and down under in the blue skies---were PAF pilots flying their machines---.

PAF is one of the most disgusting service in pakistan----it has done the most damage to the integrity of the country---the chief committing to india rather than fighting the war---the second chief in his drunken stupor not knowing what to do---the fixation with the F 16's and knowingly dumping money after the sanctions were imposed---not going after alternate aircraft----simply and purely sleeping on the job.

These incompetents believe that they have all the time in the world to prepare for the war---trust me---if you didnot have as big a fool in your services as well in procurement----pakistan would be a dead cause by now.

Sometimes ibelieve that in your procurement department---we have pakistani sympathisers dominating the program.

 

[SQ8]

MK...

1. I have 6 car showrooms near my house.. I see cars go vroom past my door. However.. I would be an idiot if I decided to walk into one of those showrooms and tell them how to run their business. The PAF's operational requirements and its abilities are subjects that you have decided to target on the basis of meeting under training officers and "vertical takeoffs". One would expect something a little more substantial that sir as your opening argument.

2.Please read more than one view point on 71.. the AF did assist the navy early on. But due to a lack of co-ordination by the Navy and a single friendly fire incident the PAF was made the target of the Navy's ire... after which they decided to hold back on naval CAS lest another mishap occur. The PAF performed admirably in that war.. better than it did in the last one.
And apparently all your acceptance of diplomatic suaveness has gone to naught with the comment on the Rann of Kutch incident..

3. You seem to talk of aerial warfare as if its a board game..are you even aware of the limitations of the F-6 and mirage aircraft?
Their range?.. their intercept windows? Their situational awareness? Because from your statements sir you seem to be oblivious to it or even an inkling of how the air/land strategy was laid out for the PAF since 47.. passing statements sir that belong to either a Jamaat-e-Islami MPA or a PA major from the infantry corps who has been passed up for promotion twice.

4. Perhaps a thrashing from the USAF would not effect you sir as your economic future lies with the red,white and blue. But the PAF operates on a limited budget and even more limited options. So what comes down from the budget of which the lion's share goes into the army and its "maintenance" costs. Perhaps if you expats could be so kind as to write the PAF a blank check or two from time to time it would help.
What "exposure" do you have to the procurement or development environment in this nation sir?
Who gets what say where? When international retailers tell you curtly "no can do, you are on the export control list"?
When good usable funds get wasted on fixing the Base commanders lawn or buying the Chief a new BMW..
You have no inkling of the effect on those officers that wish for weapons only to find the money have been directed by the politically appointed chief for upgrading the golf courses and clubhouses throughout the nation.
Your diatribe is nothing more than a straw hunt.

I am no military son or fortunate one..
But I know constructive critique from pointless rhetoric when I see it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Santro,

Good try----a nice spin----you laid out a maze---huhn. Well---my goodman---another apologist for the paf now---!!!

I have been saying this all the time---if you are not a GOD---then don't claim to be one---otherwise people will treat you as such and if you don't meet upto the standards, they will slaughter you---.

So, if you people stop bragging about the paf and stop comparing it to Zeus---maybe the people might be forgiving----but the incidence regarding the missile boat attack happened as it did---a couple of junior officers wrote about this issue as well---and so the did the electronic spy plane got destroyed on the ground---the one that could fly very high---it wasn't even used.

Oh, I do have a great exposure to pak civil and millitary service----I don't live in ether---.

If they want to buy bmw's for themselves then you got to stop them---you may have to take them out---which means a bloody revolution---.

Now if one of those 6 car showroom was failing in every aspect of the business---maybe you might do them a favour by going there and talking to them and giving them your independant perspective----.

Maybe they needed fresh ideas---because theirs had gone stale---maybe they needed a new vision---because theirs had dulled over the years.

My good man----you have a wonderful perspective and analytical capabilities----but this post of your---disappoints me---.

There are two people on this board ---that in the years that I have known them have gone from being ordinary to becoming extra-ordinary----one of them is Taimikhan and the other one is you---but let me say this---if you slam the door hard---sometimes it hits you back.

I stand by my assessment of the failures of pak air force---the claimed to be gods---but in the end they proved to be mare mortals----for that claim---they will feel the wrath.