Ship-Launched Ballistic Missile Dhanush test fired

[vsdave2302]

It has been discussed many times before on how difficult it is to use ballistic missiles in an anti ship role.
India too working on anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) : Drdo Chief | Page 2

That is why I am asking the question that how does it work in anti ship role?

 

[Daedalus]

That is why I am asking the question that how does it work in anti ship role?

@gambit is the expert on this subject. Maybe he can help you.

 

[gambit]

Thanks for that but your explaination is very generic. It hardly add to to the knowledge in this area.

It can either be,

1) Continuously decedent the trajectory and and activate the sicker in last phase when the Ship is visible and strike the ship like a cruise missile.
2) It can either be like DF 21 which see the ship from sky and dive on ship on terminal phase.
3) It releases the warheads from certain height which work like a small missile and glide to the ship with the help of sicker and kinetic energy it has.(Multi Target Missile)

Knowledgeable members may share their views on topic.

If you are asking on HOW the Dhanush can attack a moving target, whether that moving target is a ship at sea or a truck on land, you need to ask the Indian military. Not likely you are going to receive an answer with any precision. But that does not mean we cannot speculate.

A ballistic warhead is an unpowered vehicle that depends on gravity for its travel, which is limited to a descent. Being unpowered does not mean you cannot maneuver. Of course you can maneuver, but your maneuverability is quite limited: lateral. Meaning you can only change your path to either side. You cannot make a U-turn like an aircraft. And you cannot reverse. As a ballistic vehicle, you have only one direction: down.

If the target is fixed on land, such as a building, then you can have very precise ballistic equations to hit that target. In fact, humans do that every day: throwing a ball. Your receiver is at some distance away from you and he is stationary. You throw the ball at his position. If you miss his position, then the math you subconsciously performed before you throw the ball was bad. That is why natural athletes are admired and well paid, their subconscious maths are so good they are able to hit the target at a high rate.

If the target is moving, then it gets much more difficult. You have to guess where the moving target is going to be and you hope that you are correct. Then you subconsciously perform those equations and you throw the ball. If you watch American style football, then you will see these math equations between the quarterback (thrower) and the receiver. But what if you cannot see the receiver as he moves ? Then no matter how good is your subconscious math you will miss. You simply do not have all the variables.

Using a ballistic warhead against a moving ship is exactly like that, except this time, you are dealing with much greater distance and ballistic trajectory. The distance here is literally out of your sight, or 'line-of-sight' (LOS), and the ballistic trajectory can literally be suborbital, meaning almost leaving the Earth. You cannot even guess where the ship might be. You might have an idea of the general location of the ship, but precisely because the ship is moving, the longer your ballistic flight, the further the ship will be from its last position.

Does that mean it is impossible to use a ballistic attack on a ship ? No, it is possible. Just very difficult. Since YOU are that ballistic warhead, you will need at least one method of 'seeing' what is in front of you. That method could be radar or an infrared sensor. But let us use the generic 'sensor' for now.

As YOU, pretending you are that ballistic warhead, are descending, your sensor is constantly looking ahead of you. If you do not see ANY ship, then either you were launched too late and the ship have moved out of the area, or that you were launched to the wrong location. But if you do see the ship, how are you going to make sure you will hit it ? Remember, you can only change direction laterally.

So for you to deviate from your current heading to a new heading that will lead you to the ship, you either have moving fins like an aircraft does, or you must have rockets (thrust) to help you change heading. But there is another and greater problem: the ship is constantly moving. The ship did not move and stop. Move and stop. Move and stop. Instead, the ship move constantly. This means you, as the ballistic warhead, must guess where the ship is going to be in the next second, and the next second, and the next second, and so on...

Now we go back to the ball throwing example. If your math is good, you will be able to predict accurately where the ship is going to be in the next few seconds, you will change your heading to that position, then when the ship get to that position, you will hit the ship. This is assuming that the ship is NOT aware of you.

But what if the ship is aware of you ?

The above example came from WW II. The ship was an Imperial Japanese Navy warship. The Hiryu knew she was being attacked so she made unpredictable maneuvers. The attackers were a series of bombs, and they all missed.

A falling bomb is no different than a ballistic warhead when both of them are descending. The ballistic warhead just descend faster. But if the ballistic warhead is 'dumb' or if its sensor and math guidance are bad, it will miss the moving ship just like how those 'dumb' bombs missed the Hiryu.

To attack a moving target, you need :

- A sensor
- A computer
- Math
- Maneuverability

If you do not have any of these, you will miss %99.999 of the time. The %.001 is pure luck that you will hit your target.

 

[vsdave2302]

If you are asking on HOW the Dhanush can attack a moving target, whether that moving target is a ship at sea or a truck on land, you need to ask the Indian military. Not likely you are going to receive an answer with any precision. But that does not mean we cannot speculate.

A ballistic warhead is an unpowered vehicle that depends on gravity for its travel, which is limited to a descent. Being unpowered does not mean you cannot maneuver. Of course you can maneuver, but your maneuverability is quite limited: lateral. Meaning you can only change your path to either side. You cannot make a U-turn like an aircraft. And you cannot reverse. As a ballistic vehicle, you have only one direction: down.

If the target is fixed on land, such as a building, then you can have very precise ballistic equations to hit that target. In fact, humans do that every day: throwing a ball. Your receiver is at some distance away from you and he is stationary. You throw the ball at his position. If you miss his position, then the math you subconsciously performed before you throw the ball was bad. That is why natural athletes are admired and well paid, their subconscious maths are so good they are able to hit the target at a high rate.

If the target is moving, then it gets much more difficult. You have to guess where the moving target is going to be and you hope that you are correct. Then you subconsciously perform those equations and you throw the ball. If you watch American style football, then you will see these math equations between the quarterback (thrower) and the receiver. But what if you cannot see the receiver as he moves ? Then no matter how good is your subconscious math you will miss. You simply do not have all the variables.

Using a ballistic warhead against a moving ship is exactly like that, except this time, you are dealing with much greater distance and ballistic trajectory. The distance here is literally out of your sight, or 'line-of-sight' (LOS), and the ballistic trajectory can literally be suborbital, meaning almost leaving the Earth. You cannot even guess where the ship might be. You might have an idea of the general location of the ship, but precisely because the ship is moving, the longer your ballistic flight, the further the ship will be from its last position.

Does that mean it is impossible to use a ballistic attack on a ship ? No, it is possible. Just very difficult. Since YOU are that ballistic warhead, you will need at least one method of 'seeing' what is in front of you. That method could be radar or an infrared sensor. But let us use the generic 'sensor' for now.

As YOU, pretending you are that ballistic warhead, are descending, your sensor is constantly looking ahead of you. If you do not see ANY ship, then either you were launched too late and the ship have moved out of the area, or that you were launched to the wrong location. But if you do see the ship, how are you going to make sure you will hit it ? Remember, you can only change direction laterally.

So for you to deviate from your current heading to a new heading that will lead you to the ship, you either have moving fins like an aircraft does, or you must have rockets (thrust) to help you change heading. But there is another and greater problem: the ship is constantly moving. The ship did not move and stop. Move and stop. Move and stop. Instead, the ship move constantly. This means you, as the ballistic warhead, must guess where the ship is going to be in the next second, and the next second, and the next second, and so on...

Now we go back to the ball throwing example. If your math is good, you will be able to predict accurately where the ship is going to be in the next few seconds, you will change your heading to that position, then when the ship get to that position, you will hit the ship. This is assuming that the ship is NOT aware of you.

But what if the ship is aware of you ?

View attachment 152047

The above example came from WW II. The ship was an Imperial Japanese Navy warship. The Hiryu knew she was being attacked so she made unpredictable maneuvers. The attackers were a series of bombs, and they all missed.

A falling bomb is no different than a ballistic warhead when both of them are descending. The ballistic warhead just descend faster. But if the ballistic warhead is 'dumb' or if its sensor and math guidance are bad, it will miss the moving ship just like how those 'dumb' bombs missed the Hiryu.

To attack a moving target, you need :

- A sensor
- A computer
- Math
- Maneuverability

If you do not have any of these, you will miss %99.999 of the time. The %.001 is pure luck that you will hit your target.

Thank you very much. Very good explanation.

I believe that If Missile takes depressed path like cruise in terminal phase, Chances of hitting the ship is much higher than in pure basaltic trajectory. You rightly said that a sensor and different alogarithm is required. Any way if dhanush has that capability, it awesome not only in term of warfare capability but in terms of technology that India has mastered.

 

[gambit]

Thank you very much. Very good explanation.

I believe that If Missile takes depressed path like cruise in terminal phase, Chances of hitting the ship is much higher than in pure basaltic trajectory. You rightly said that a sensor and different alogarithm is required. Any way if dhanush has that capability, it awesome not only in term of warfare capability but in terms of technology that India has mastered.

Then the weapon is no longer unpowered but is a powered vehicle.

You will have to FIRST design a cruise missile. Then you will have to design a launch vehicle that is essentially a ballistic missile to carry this cruise missile.

Now it gets complicated.

In order for the cruise missile to behave like a cruise missile after a ballistic descent, you will have to program the descent stage in some ways to allow distance and time for the cruise missile to have level flight -- like a manned aircraft. In other words, the ballistic warhead, which contains the cruise missile, must release the cruise missile at altitude high enough to allow the cruise missile to gain full aerodynamic exploitation so that it can have effective use of its sensor and maneuverability.

You have to determine the mode of destruction, as in do you want to hit the ship like a ballistic warhead, or to hit the ship like a cruise missile. Can you design a weapon that can do both, depending on what it sees ? Sure. How much money you got ?

 

[The Deterrent]

Dhanush's NOTAM, area cleared and range:

A2045/14 - EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT VEHICLE LAUNCH WILL TAKE PLACE WITH THE FLW DETAILS: THE COORDINATES OF THE DANGER ZONES POLYGON ARE AS FOLLOWS: POINT A: 20 48 06.48N 087 02 20.04E POINT B: 19 52 56.64N 086 50 29.76E POINT C: 09 00 23.04N 087 05 19.32E POINT D: 09 10 27.84N 089 07 43.68E POINT E: 09 40 25.32N 091 06 54.72E POINT F: 20 00 51.48N 087 38 12.48E POINT G: 20 48 54.00N 087 07 06.24E POINT A: 20 48 06.48N 087 02 20.04E NO OVERFLYING ACTIVITY IS PERMISSIBLE WI THE ABOVE MENTIONED AREA DURING THE HOURS OF LAUNCH THE FLW ATS ROUTES ARE REROUTED/NOT AVBL IN CHENNAI FIR 1. P574 NOT AVBL MMV VOR AND DUBTA ALTN ROUTE: MMV VOR DCT- 0837N 08651E DCT DUBTA-P574 (BIDIRECTIONAL) EAST BOUND LEVEL F350 AND F410 WEST BOUND LEVEL F360, F400 ONLY AVAILABLE BTN MMV AND NOPEK. 2. P762 NOT AVBL BTN PPB VOR AND DUGOS ALTN ROUTE: PPB VOR DCT LAGOG-DCT-0837N08651E DCT DUGOS P762 (BIDIRECTIONAL) EAST BOUND LEVEL F290 WEST BOUND LEVEL F320 ONLY AVAILABLE BTN LULDA AND DUGOS. 3. N571 NOT AVBL IDASO AND IGOGU ALTN ROUTE: IDASO-DCT 0837N08651E DCT IGOGU (BIDIRECTIONAL) EAST BOUND LEVEL F330, F370 AND F390 WEST BOUND LEVEL F300, F340 AND F380 ONLY AVAILABLE BTN IDASO AND IGOGU. 4. P761 NOT AVBL BTN MMV VOR AND PPB VOR ALTN ROUTE: MMV VOR DCT 0837N08651E //PART 1 OF 2 PARTS//. 0330-0730, 09 NOV 03:30 2014 UNTIL 10 NOV 07:30 2014. CREATED: 04 NOV 09:21 2014 A2045/14 - DCT LAGOG-DCT PPB VOR (BIDIRECTIONAL) EAST BOUND LEVEL F270 WEST BOUND LEVEL F260 ONLY AVAILABLE BTN MMV VOR AND PPB VOR. 5. N563 NOT AVBL BTN SADRI AND XOKRO ALTN ROUTE: SADRI DCT 0837N 08651E DCT XOKRO (BIDIRECTIONAL) EAST BOUND LEVEL F310 WEST BOUND LEVEL F280 ONLY AVAILABLE BTN MEMAK AND AKMIL. 6. OTHER FLT LEVELS ARE ALSO AVAILABLE ON ALL THE ABOVE ROUTES SUBJECT TO PRIOR COORDINATION AND SPECIFIC APPROVAL FROM CHENNAI. 7. B466 NOT AVBL BTN MMV VOR AND ANOKO ALTN ROUTE: MMV VOR DCT 0837N08651E DCT ANOKO (BIDIRECTIONAL) F250 AND BELOW ONLY AVAILABLE. 8. P628 NOT AVBL PPB VOR AND ASOPO ALTN ROUTE: PPB VOR DCT - DOPID CEA VOR-A791-ASOPO (BIDIRECTIONAL) 9. ATS ROUTES L518, L510, N877, W111, Q10 AND Q11 NOT AVBL. AMSL - UNL) //PART 2 OF 2 PARTS//, 09 NOV 03:30 2014 UNTIL 10 NOV 07:30 2014. CREATED: 04 NOV 09:21 2014

A0820/14 - P574 NOT AVBL BTN MMV VOR AND DUBTA. ALTN ROUTE: MMV VOR - DCT - 0837N 08651E - DCT - DUBTA - P574. BIDIRECTIONAL. 6. P762 NOT AVBL BTN PPB VOR AND DUGOS. ALTN ROUTE: PPB VOR -DCT -LAGOG -DCT -0837N 08651E -DCT -DUGOS. BIDIRECTIONAL. 7. N571 NOT AVBL BTN IDASO AND IGOGU. ALTN ROUTE: IDASO -DCT -0837N 08651E -DCT-IGOGU. BIDIRECTIONAL. 8. P761 NOT AVBL BTN MMV VOR AND PPB VOR. ALTN ROUTE: MMV VOR DCT -0837N 08651E DCT LAGOG DCT PPB VOR. BIDIRECTIONAL. 9. N563 NOT AVBL BTN SADRI AND XOKRO. ALTN ROUTE: SADRI DCT -0837N 08651E DCT XOKRO. BIDIRECTIONAL. 10. B466 NOT AVBL BTN MMV VOR AND ANOKO. ALTN ROUTE: MMV VOR DCT 0837N 08651E DCT ANOKO. BIDIRECTIONAL. 11. P628 NOT AVBL BTN PPB VOR AND ASOPO. ALTN ROUTE: PPB VOR DCT DOPID -CEA VOR - A791 - ASOPO. BIDIRECTIONAL. ONLY FL280 AVBL FOR WEST BOUND FLTS ON THE ALTN ROUTE OF P628. 12. L510 NOT AVBL BTN EMRAN AND IBANI. NO ALTN ROUTING POSSIBLE. 13. N877 NOT AVBL BTN LAGOG AND VVZ VOR. NO ALTN ROUTING POSSIBLE. 14. P646: ONLY FL300 AVBL FOR WEST BOUND FLTS ON THIS ROUTE. 15. W112: ONLY FL260 AND FL240 AVBL FOR WEST BOUND FLTS ON THIS ROUTE. 16. M770/M773: ONLY FL360 AVBL FOR WEST BOUND FLTS ON THIS ROUTE. 17. OTHER FLT LEVELS FOR WEST BOUND ACFTS ON ROUTE M770, P646 AND ALTN ROUTE OF L759, N895, P628 ARE AVBL ON ACCEPTANCE BASIS. 18. ATS ROUTES L518, L301, L510, N877, W111, Q10 AND Q11 NOT AVBL. GND/AMSL - UNL) //PART 2 OF 2 PARTS//, BTN 0330-0730 DLY, 09 NOV 03:30 2014 UNTIL 10 NOV 07:30 2014. CREATED: 07 NOV 05:46 2014

 

[Pulsar]

Useless missile, ship will be sunk, while it is being set up, CM400 will put it at the bottom of the ocean.

Do you know how to sink a Pakistani sub? Just put it in the water!

 

[vsdave2302]

Then the weapon is no longer unpowered but is a powered vehicle.

You will have to FIRST design a cruise missile. Then you will have to design a launch vehicle that is essentially a ballistic missile to carry this cruise missile.

Now it gets complicated.

In order for the cruise missile to behave like a cruise missile after a ballistic descent, you will have to program the descent stage in some ways to allow distance and time for the cruise missile to have level flight -- like a manned aircraft. In other words, the ballistic warhead, which contains the cruise missile, must release the cruise missile at altitude high enough to allow the cruise missile to gain full aerodynamic exploitation so that it can have effective use of its sensor and maneuverability.

You have to determine the mode of destruction, as in do you want to hit the ship like a ballistic warhead, or to hit the ship like a cruise missile. Can you design a weapon that can do both, depending on what it sees ? Sure. How much money you got ?

I believe that a K15 with a sensor is exactly match the stuff we discussed since K series have initial ballistic trajectory and takes depressed path in mid course and cruise like trajectory in terminal phase. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[vsdave2302]

We are building multi target missile which will have multiple warhead and will behave like small missile to hit multiple target with kinetic energy they get from mother missile and their small seekers will guide them to target. I look forward to use them in antiwariship role as this small bombs can easily glide towards the ship compared to one warhead released by missile.

 

[JaiShriAllahNath]

It seems that you are not interested in discussing main issues. Tell me how can it be used in anti ship role if you know.
Thanks for that but your explaination is very generic. It hardly add to to the knowledge in this area.

It can either be,
1) Continuously decedent the trajectory and and activate the sicker in last phase when the Ship is visible and strike the ship like a cruise missile.
2) It can either be like DF 21 which see the ship from sky and dive on ship on terminal phase.
3) It releases the warheads from certain height which work like a small missile and glide to the ship with the help of sicker and kinetic energy it has.(Multi Target Missile)
Knowledgeable members may share their views on topic.

If you want to learn, then learn little humility(विनम्रता). You sound like u r doing a favour on people here.

 

[JaiShriAllahNath]

We are building multi target missile which will have multiple warhead and will behave like small missile to hit multiple target with kinetic energy they get from mother missile and their small seekers will guide them to target. I look forward to use them in antiwariship role as this small bombs can easily glide towards the ship compared to one warhead released by missile.

on your x-box console?

 

[jha]

So which missile did we Actually test ..? Any guess..?

 

[kurup]

So which missile did we Actually test ..? Any guess..?

We tested both missiles .

Prithvi 2 in morning and Dhanush by evening .

 

[narcon]

Dhanush is a naval version of the nuclear-capable ballistic missile Prithvi. It has a range of 350 km and is capable of carrying a conventional as well as nuclear payload of more than 500 kg. It can hit both land and sea-based targets.
India successfully tests Dhanush ballistic missile | Business Standard News
Could be stationary Oil Rigs or any floating Airport runway or so.

 

[Basel]

If Indian test BM it can have Anti Ship capability but when China developed DF-21 it was piece of crap and not possible to have Anti Ship capability, what a hypocrisy.

By the way Congrats.