Shame on Israel.The Palestinian national soccer team has been under attack by the Israeli state

[Falcon29]

the article says a bomb was found on them... and throwing bombs , suicide bombers etc is the modus operandi from the palestinian side. so how is someone like you, clueless in america , since you were not there - can say the claim is BS?

and post #10 is quite powerful... even if you refuse to believe it because you are a partisan in this effort.

personally , I look at it case by case and absolutely believe Israel( soldiers) has been at fault many times... i.e.I am not a partisan

do the pictures lie ? you don't see any shots to at least one guys feet. that some powerful evidence unless you are saying they made up those tweets and social media posts?

Oh Btw stp threatening other members, this is not a PLA playing grounds . It makes you a caricature of what people think you are...

The story does not make any sense, and how could throw bombs? What kind of bombs are they speaking of? I don't believe many things they say since after real investigations and eye witness accounts the story doesn't add up right. Just recently they opened a new investigation into the killing of a Jordanian judge because the story was a lie. Go look at the Israeli websites yourself. There are bullet holes in his feet I saw a video of him. Even the Israeli military said they did shoot them. The thing is though, this is all occurring in the occupied territories. Meaning things like this shouldn't be happening since the Israeli military shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

[JayAtl]

The story does not make any sense, and how could throw bombs? What kind of bombs are they speaking of? I don't believe many things they say since after real investigations and eye witness accounts the story doesn't add up right. Just recently they opened a new investigation into the killing of a Jordanian judge because the story was a lie. Go look at the Israeli websites yourself. There are bullet holes in his feet I saw a video of him. Even the Israeli military said they did shoot them. The thing is though, this is all occurring in the occupied territories. Meaning things like this shouldn't be happening since the Israeli military shouldn't be there in the first place.

your version is partisan ... my version looks at the evidence posted to date. Things could turn out to be different, but as of now the guys were messing with groups known to use violence and terror...

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Okay, you are very confused. First of all, we don't slaughter each other. The Israelis are occupying our land and slaughtering us, we are not confiscating their land or resources. Second of all, this incident happened in the West Bank. The West Bank and Gaza are two different things, both Palestinian Territories however. He did not offer a rebuttal, he justified the incident. Please show me evidence that these people were throwing 'bombs' at Israeli forces which are occupying Palestinian land. These are not Israeli forces minding their own business in their own land defending their nation. These are Israeli forces going on the offensive against Palestinians and demolishing their homes everyday and putting illegal settlers in their place. The whole international world recognizes the West Bank as occupied territory. It's you who makes this sound like a conflict.

You say Israelis have been slaughtered? Really? Show me how many Israelis have been 'slaughtered' in the past decade? The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are not attacking Israel, otherwise you would see that in the news. Yet Israel is confiscating their land daily and expanding more with their illegal settlements, they violate their rights.

It is not a conflict, one side is occupied and defenseless and the other side is very powerful, commits human rights violations and exercise discrimination against non Jewish people. Btw, the Palestinians are entitled to arm theirselves, the Palestinians in Gaza don't use their weapons in aggression. They only use them in self defense when necessary, the whole past 5 years no weapons were used except on very short and small occasions where Israel attacks Gaza unprovoked and kills their people. Israel did not end it's occupation in Gaza since it still exercises massive control over Gaza. This is what the UN says, you just need to follow up on it. The Palestinian people are the only people in this conflict that are suffering and having their rights violated daily. And it has nothing to do with violence, the Israeli occupation began long ago, Israel expands it's borders illegally not because of security reasons, rather because they have a belief they're entitled to displace Palestinians and illegally seize their land.

Ok, in any event my country has always condemned the Israeli brutality for what it is worth

 

[Solomon2]

Ok, in any event my country has always condemned the Israeli brutality for what it is worth

And here, accusations of "Israeli brutality" are worth precisely nothing. It should make one wonder how many of these accusations are really true as opposed to antisemitic propaganda, doesn't it?

There are many evils in the world today. Israel has enemies who wish to not only eliminate Israel as a state, but slay all its Jewish inhabitants. People for whom killing a Jew is never, and can never be, regarded as a crime, people for whom a treaty or trade isn't about furthering peace but a deceit towards further murder and conquests. People who think nothing of lying over and over to demonize those they are trying to slay and conquer. So if you're out to condemn "brutality" is it really Israel that should be condemned?

 

[PlanetWarrior]

your version is partisan ... my version looks at the evidence posted to date. Things could turn out to be different, but as of now the guys were messing with groups known to use violence and terror...

I believe that the argument here is that these guys were in Palestinian territories and that the Israelis had no right to shoot them. Similar to you walking around in your neighborhood, playing ball and some Pakistani soldier comes up to you and shoots you. Now wouldn't that peeve you off ?

And here, accusations of "Israeli brutality" are worth precisely nothing. It should make one wonder how many of these accusations are really true as opposed to antisemitic propaganda, doesn't it?

There are many evils in the world today. Israel has enemies who wish to not only eliminate Israel as a state, but slay all its Jewish inhabitants. People for whom killing a Jew is never, and can never be, regarded as a crime, people for whom a treaty or trade isn't about furthering peace but a deceit towards further murder and conquests. People who think nothing of lying over and over to demonize those they are trying to slay and conquer. So if you're out to condemn "brutality" is it really Israel that should be condemned?

My friend, India also have Muslim enemies who have vowed to wipe Hindus off the map and to make India a Muslim state. You don't find the Indian army going around killing Muslims willy nilly now do you ? I mean from some of the media reports which I read, it seems that the Israeli army and airforce uses these Palestinians as target practice. They fire one useless rocket which lands in a dump somewhere in Israel and you in turn pound them with your jets and shoot at thousands of them. C'mon isn't that excessive force by any standard ?

 

[Solomon2]

I believe that the argument here is that these guys were in Palestinian territories and that the Israelis had no right to shoot them -

More reading, please.

I mean from some of the media reports which I read, it seems that the Israeli army and airforce uses these Palestinians as target practice.

Seek accurate sources, not phony ones, please.

Of course, beyond the information mashups, there's the ultimate issue: accepting that by far the majority of blame and all the unchecked criminality lies with the Arabs, not the Jews. Is India willing to piss off 200 million Arabs in the name of justice, beyond the self-interest of its current relations with Israel?

 

[PlanetWarrior]

More reading, please.

Seek accurate sources, not phony ones, please.

Of course, beyond the information mashups, there's the ultimate issue: accepting that by far the majority of blame and all the unchecked criminality lies with the Arabs, not the Jews. Is India willing to piss off 200 million Arabs in the name of justice, beyond the self-interest of its current relations with Israel?

Nobody is painting the Arabs to be peaceful angels. The issue remains that of excessive force. Can you deny that Israel uses excessive force when dealing with Palestinian resistance ?

 

[Falcon29]

I believe that the argument here is that these guys were in Palestinian territories and that the Israelis had no right to shoot them. Similar to you walking around in your neighborhood, playing ball and some Pakistani soldier comes up to you and shoots you. Now wouldn't that peeve you off ?



My friend, India also have Muslim enemies who have vowed to wipe Hindus off the map and to make India a Muslim state. You don't find the Indian army going around killing Muslims willy nilly now do you ? I mean from some of the media reports which I read, it seems that the Israeli army and airforce uses these Palestinians as target practice. They fire one useless rocket which lands in a dump somewhere in Israel and you in turn pound them with your jets and shoot at thousands of them. C'mon isn't that excessive force by any standard ?

Actually you haven't seen nothing, these rockets are a relatively new thing and they don't fire unprovoked otherwise it would be all over mainstream media. There are only small occasion where Israel attacked Gaza in the past five years for example which I can cite for you which caused deadly skirmishes. Before this though, there were uprisings in the West Bank and Gaza.

Read this:
Israel's Large-Scale Killing of Palestinians Passes Unreported | The Electronic Intifada

Nobody is painting the Arabs to be peaceful angels. The issue remains that of excessive force. Can you deny that Israel uses excessive force when dealing with Palestinian resistance ?

He can't, since we saw what happened in 2009. Excessive force indicates a different motive which is not about defending ones people. Israel also attacked the Palestinian resistance since 2004 all the way to 2009 and not the other way around. 150 Palestinians were killed each week in Gaza and during the 2009 offensive 270 were killed in the first hour. Keep in mind, the uprisings which occurred in which Israel shot down demonstrators at a rate of dozens per day were being killed.

Look up Baruch Goldstein, he killed 29 Palestinian worshippers, the Palestinains went demonstrating in the West Bank and another few dozen were killed. That's when things erupted.

 

[Solomon2]

Nobody is painting the Arabs to be peaceful angels. The issue remains that of excessive force. Can you deny that Israel uses excessive force when dealing with Palestinian resistance ?

I've been pointing out here - not just this time - instances where such stories turn out to be complete rot. Furthermore, unlike many countries, the actions of Israel's soldiers are subject to the courts, and often Pallywood-staged confrontations - or just street theater! - for the benefit of reporters and the media.

The insidious thing about consuming huge amounts of lying propaganda, PW, isn't necessarily that people believe the specifics. It's that, repeated over and over, they believe the underlying message of demonization. That certainly was the case with the communists. Soviet defectors to the U.S., like MiG-25 pilot Viktor Belenko, grew angrier and angrier as they realized that the truth had been turned upside-down. Hazzy says that's O.K, it's the propaganda that's "true", not the facts. As far as you're concerned, he's right, isn't he?

 

[Falcon29]

@Solomon2

What source can be accurate? LOL

Hazzy does not believe in propaganda, he believes what the rest of the international community believes.
..............

@PlanetWarrior
Here's an example:

They accused a professional Jordanian judge of these accusations and insisted this is exactly what happened ...:

IDF insists Jordanian judge shot in self defense - Israel News, Ynetnews

However, because Jordan was very upset at that they retracted the typical bogus stories they create and admitted recently that didn't actually happen:

IDF investigating Jordanian judge's death | The Times of Israel

Here they're saying the army account was false, the only reason they investigated wreckless killings in the West Bank was because pressure and foreign aspect. Had he been Palestinian his life would be degraded and they would dehumanize all Palestinian victims. This is why human rights organizations document this.

Did you know more people were killed in the West Bank than in Gaza in 2013 and the West Bank doesn't have arms? Did you also know the UN was denied access to the West Bank to document Israel's settlement and army activity?

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I've been pointing out here - not just this time - instances where such stories turn out to be complete rot. Furthermore, unlike many countries, the actions of Israel's soldiers are subject to the courts, and often Pallywood-staged confrontations - or just street theater! - for the benefit of reporters and the media.

The insidious thing about consuming huge amounts of lying propaganda, PW, isn't necessarily that people believe the specifics. It's that, repeated over and over, they believe the underlying message of demonization. That certainly was the case with the communists. Soviet defectors to the U.S., like MiG-25 pilot Viktor Belenko, grew angrier and angrier as they realized that the truth had been turned upside-down. Hazzy says that's O.K, it's the propaganda that's "true", not the facts. As far as you're concerned, he's right, isn't he?

For starters, I am not here to judge and I keep an open mind. I am therefore not automatically excluding the suggestion of propaganda. As a child , I was exposed for a very limited period to apartheid having had to stay in South Africa as the child of a UN diplomat. Now I am familiar with Israel's anger when compared to apartheid South Africa and I do not intend in any way drawing any correlation between the internal political system of Israel to that of apartheid South Africa since I do believe that such a comparison will be unfair to Israel.

I can and will however draw a correlation between excessive force used by the apartheid military against Blacks to that of the Israeli military against Palestinians. South Africa likewise complained that the media "over demonized" the apartheid regime in favor of the Black people when it came to the issue of excessive force. You and Hazzy both being in the USA will agree that excessive force is no less a crime compared to any other violent crime.

As for the access to courts by any victim of the IDF, can you without any reservation tell me that you are confident that a Palestinian victim of such excessive force will be guaranteed access to justice in such courts taking into consideration the costs in light of the fact that he or she will be in effect taking on the Israeli government in an Israeli court ?

There are many media establishments which are neutral on the issue of the Palestinian revolts. If you claim that the British or the Pakistani or the Saudi or Arab media establishments are biased , I will be inclined to accept that claim. From a quick interpretation of your claim though, you seem to insinuate that the international media world has made up its mind and have judged Israel to be the aggressor in each and every instance. Isn't that a bit too far fetched ?

Actually you haven't seen nothing, these rockets are a relatively new thing and they don't fire unprovoked otherwise it would be all over mainstream media. There are only small occasion where Israel attacked Gaza in the past five years for example which I can cite for you which caused deadly skirmishes. Before this though, there were uprisings in the West Bank and Gaza.

Read this:
Israel's Large-Scale Killing of Palestinians Passes Unreported | The Electronic Intifada



He can't, since we saw what happened in 2009. Excessive force indicates a different motive which is not about defending ones people. Israel also attacked the Palestinian resistance since 2004 all the way to 2009 and not the other way around. 150 Palestinians were killed each week in Gaza and during the 2009 offensive 270 were killed in the first hour. Keep in mind, the uprisings which occurred in which Israel shot down demonstrators at a rate of dozens per day were being killed.

Look up Baruch Goldstein, he killed 29 Palestinian worshippers, the Palestinains went demonstrating in the West Bank and another few dozen were killed. That's when things erupted.

But, in a nutshell , do you agree that the indiscriminate firing of rockets by Hamas and other Palestinian organizations into Israeli cities is an act of war which warrants Israel taking cross border action in retaliation ?

 

[anonymus]

My friend, India also have Muslim enemies who have vowed to wipe Hindus off the map and to make India a Muslim state. You don't find the Indian army going around killing Muslims willy nilly now do you ?

I think the difference here lies in both strategic and demographic depth. India could afford to be defeated, lose ground and suffer multiple Stalingrads due to it's resource base, both human and material. Even if 5-10 million Indians die in a war, it is just 0.83% of total population of India and even if we lose Delhi, we still have close to 80% of our Area to regroup and counter-attack. In contrast to that, Israeli Jews has a total population of 6 million and Israel is just 15 Km at it's narrowest point which means that the first war it loses would be the last war it would lose. Israel may have Nukes but in their case they are more of revenge weapon rather than a protective deterrence.

Had India been in such a life and death situation,it would have been dealing with Muslims in more cruel manner,

 

[Falcon29]

@PlanetWarrior

Well this is where Gaza gets very complicated, let's start here. The rockets were first made by metal scraps by Palestinian resistance organization to use against the Israeli military and illegal settlers presence in Gaza. Israel did not withdraw their presence until 2005. So these rockets at the time were made to get Israel withdraw from our territory. I believe that was justified, then we get to 2004-2006 era, there was much violence in between so there was already a state of war. It's very complicated to go over literal events one by one, so Israel was attacking Gaza and did conduct air offensives and limited ground offensives. So by that aspect they were justified in firing these homemade rockets across the border which mostly landed in open areas far from any Israelis. Only a couple nearby towns from Gaza which had Israeli military presence were shelled lightly. So this was all due to end when the national government as formed, 2006 Hamas representatives won the majority and they were supposed to be integrated into the government. Keep in mind the US and Israel told the Palestinians to do elections and said they would recognize the democratic process. They did not tell the truth, Hamas was prevented to govern by PA forces and Israel/US immediately tried to get concessions out of Hamas. Which one is to recognize the Israeli occupation and end our quest for freedom, the other one was to disarm with no guarantees at all.

Hamas was very lightly armed and small during this period, so if they disarmed anyways. Would Israel stop exercising control over Gaza and it's blockade and siege? Would we have access to our resources? Would we have real conditions of a fully sovereign state? The US and Israel did not say anything about that. Since the PA in the West Bank agreed to similar conditions, and look at the result yourself.

So you get to 2006, Hamas needed to make a score, why? Because they need a negotiating card to get the world to recognize their election victory. Which is why they captured an Israeli soldier, keep in mind in 2006 Israel imposed a siege and blockade on Gaza which cause many horrific humanitarian conditions. During these periods from 2004-2008 thousands of Palestinians inside Gaza were also killed. So a blockade is considered an act of war, therefore Palestinians are justified into retaliation. Hamas wanted a diplomatic solution like any other Palestinian organization. The world was ignoring the democratic results and supporting Israel's collective punishment. So eventually a coup was attempted by the US backed PA and it failed. So Israel declared Gaza an enemy state(which was the plan in the first place). The restrictions were also imposed during the 90's not after Hamas was elected. So after all this Israeli violence against Gaza a ceasefire was declared and Hamas prevented any Palestinian organization from attacking Israel even though it is legally justified. We had a ceasefire for nearly six months until Israel killed 6 Palestinian resistance fighters and this led to a larger escalation. Still however, Palestinians were weak and only capable of firing rockets made of metal scraps across the border. Hamas said they want the siege eased because it's causing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, we can't export, and importing is delayed by Israel so even if the world sends medical supplies israel delays it intentionally. They have counted how many calories Palestinians need to not starve. I'm serious about this, so we have a miserable situation and the world is just watching.

So eventually the violence carried on since Israel was being very disproportionate. Israel then launched a massive offensive which much if the world condemned, look at the amnesty international report. They killed over 700 civilians and destroyed over 4,000 homes. Is this something 'peaceful' people would do? Did we really have to be destroyed just because we asked the world to ease the restrictions against our people? So after that there has largely been peace except when Israel attacks Gaza again. So after this occurred bro, we have lost hope, so the Palestinians are justified in arming themselves, not in using their weapons unprovoked. So they armed and became more organized.

Here are instances of any major violence:

April 2011: Israel accused three Hamas military commanders of going to travel to Egypt in the next week to kidnap Israelis. This was bulllshit, so a week later Hamas responded by firing an anti tank weapon at what they presumed to be an Israeli military bus since it was an Israeli military road very close to Gaza. It turned out to be civilians, Hamas didn't know this, one Israeli died, the same night 19 Palestinians were killed.

August 2011: Egyptian militants attacked Israel killed a few soldiers and two civilians, Israel immediately attacked Gaza killing six Palestinians and there was a small Palestinian reponse but other civilians were killed until dozens were killed. After a couple of days it became calm.

March 2012: Israel accused a faction leader of an imminent threat, this was denied by the Palestinians. They assassinated him and one Palestinian organization retaliated so Israel would stop killing our people. It ended after a week and 22 Palestinians were killed.

November 2012: Israel was committing incursions on a daily basis, they invaded Gaza and got in armed clash which killed a Palestinian child from helicopter fire. On November 10 I believe this happened, so Palestinians on November 12 responded with targeting the Israeli military jeep which injured four of their soldiers. Right after this an Israeli tank shelled indiscriminately and killed 4 civilians and wounded another 29. So the Palestinians fired rockets somewhat intensely until a cease fire was reached. November 13 it was largely calm, on the morning of November 14 israel killed the military commander of Hamas and 7 other civilians also dozens were wounded. So you tell me? All we could do is respond, this lead to an 7 day war. Gaza actually was stronger this time and had a good reponse so a ceaseifr was reached after one week. When Gaza was weak in 2009 Israel attacked for weeks and went on a ground invasion.

Ever since then it has largely been calm, and the Palestinians in Gaza need an arsenal to serve as a deterrence, we don't attack israel unprovoked. To this day no restrictions have been eased. So if Palestinians have a capability to hit central Israel, Israel will think twice before killing Palestinians in Gaza. They don't think twice in the West Bank since everyday the Palestinians there have their rights violated.

So if Gaza was a filly sovereign state and Israel was not an occupying state and Gaza committed an act of war then that would make sense to condemn them. However, that's not the case as I explained above.